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Orange Blooded [2669]
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We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 11, 2022, 10:59 PM
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Or keep Brownell for 1 more year to see what he can do with the talent we have coming back. We do have perhaps the best talent (PJ Hall) we have had on our team in 20-30 years. We have solid young big men as reserves. We have guards that can shoot and have potential. I seriously think we could make a run next year.
There is no sense in keeping the status quo w/ Clemson Basketball, as our strategy has not sustained success.....ever. Every successful modern day Clemson Basketball Coach(As seen by the average Tnetter) has bolted after they had success. Barnes left for Texas, and Purnell left for F'n Depaul. Why do people think that we can hire and retain a stud coach? It has never happened here and it won't unless something is changed. If we we keep the status quo at Clemson and hire a successful coach, he will bolt and we are likely to get another Shyatt. It's hard to hire a successful coach. It's why 90% of teams aren't consistently in the top 25.
Clemson is not a destination job for a coach. Quite frankly it's a terrible job as is. We do not pay players, we have no NIL presence, we have no history or tradition, funding is middle of the road, and our fans expect us to be top 5 in the ACC consistently. Is there anything attractive about the Clemson Basketball job? Seriously, can anyone name something?
I'm ok with firing Brownell, but we need to do something different. If we aren't going to, then we are getting pretty good value out of Brownell as is. And we have some talent coming back next year and some solid recruits.
Just for fun, I pulled Rick Barnes and OP numbers combined and compared them to Brownell's. Barnes was so good. He had 12 ranked wins in 4 years. These numbers really do show how fickle and ridiculous or fanbase is. I continue to hear of the glory years of Barnes and Purnell, but Brownell's numbers in 12 years are actually very comparable to Barnes and OP's numbers combined.
Barnes and OP
Seasons: 11
Overall Win %: 60%
ACC Win %: 44%
Ranked Wins: 20
ACC Tourney Wins: 5
Significant ACC Tourney Wins: 2
NCAA Tourney Wins: 2
Brownell
Seasons: 12
Overall Win %: 57%
ACC Win %: 48%
Ranked Wins: 18
ACC Tourney Wins: 5
Significant ACC Tourney Wins: 0
NCAA Tourney Wins: 3
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CU Medallion [56606]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 11, 2022, 11:06 PM
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Is there anything attractive about the Clemson Basketball job? Seriously, can anyone name something?
Besides the millions?
It’s at Clemson. That’s enough for me.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 11, 2022, 11:09 PM
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Is there anything attractive about the Clemson Basketball job? Seriously, can anyone name something?
Besides the millions?
It’s at Clemson. That’s enough for me.
If only there was another former tiger swimmer that felt the same as you and was really good at coaching basketball.
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CU Medallion [56606]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 11, 2022, 11:11 PM
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I know, right?
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110%er [7921]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 12, 2022, 7:30 AM
[ in reply to Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program.... ] |
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Is there anything attractive about the Clemson Basketball job? Seriously, can anyone name something?
Besides the millions?
It’s at Clemson. That’s enough for me.
I have to wonder if you think either of those things are important to an up and coming basketball coach?
Breaking it down for you since my guess is you don’t get it. Clemson is a great place to raise a family but a terrible location to coach basketball. The rural fabric is not a draw for the best players and there is no hotbed of recruits in the area.
Money is also not a factor as all basketball coaches are well paid. The best ones are willing to take less money at a smaller school ($900K for example) where it’s easier to win and get noticed by a top tier basketball school.
Why risk your career at Clemson where winning is hard and almost impossible to sustain instead of taking a much easier path (and still be rich)?
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110%er [9656]
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Thanks for your input.
1
Mar 12, 2022, 7:41 AM
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We’ll consider adding this to the job posting.
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110%er [8515]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 11, 2022, 11:10 PM
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Overall, very well done. I will point out that NIL just started so it is way too early to draw conclusions there. As far as paying players, there is not evidence to support that but sadly we got caught when the best coach we ever had, Tates Locke, was here.
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Letterman [263]
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OMG
Mar 11, 2022, 11:10 PM
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the love fest for PJ Hall is a bit overhyped! Top talent in the last 20-30 years?????? LOL!!! He averaged 15 points a game for a team that was 14-16, seriously enough. The ACC was the absolute worst it’s ever been this year, and we are proclaiming a player for us that averaged 15 PPG on a 14-16 team as the best player of our last 20-30 years.
He’s not a pimple on the a$$ of Trevor Booker at his point, and quite frankly I’d take Aamir Simms every day of the week and twice on Sunday over him.
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110%er [5683]
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Nice try coot
Mar 11, 2022, 11:27 PM
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Hall has performed much better than any coot player in the past 10 years.
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Letterman [263]
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Haha, yah you tool,
Mar 11, 2022, 11:39 PM
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I’m not a Coot, but if you think Hall who averaged 15 PPG on a team that went 14-16 in games he played is better than Dozier or Thornwell on a team that went to the Final Four, than I can’t fix your intelligence level.
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Orange Blooded [4959]
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Re: Nice try coot
Mar 13, 2022, 8:18 AM
[ in reply to Nice try coot ] |
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I think he's a fan of Brown University
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110%er [6647]
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Sure that is not Johnny69?
Mar 11, 2022, 11:30 PM
[ in reply to OMG ] |
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You area coot through and through, no matter where you went to school.
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Standout [314]
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Re: OMG
Mar 11, 2022, 11:40 PM
[ in reply to OMG ] |
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You lost any credibility when you don't even know our record. We're 17-16.
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Letterman [263]
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You lost your credibility
Mar 11, 2022, 11:50 PM
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in not realizing that we were 14-16 in the 30 games that Hall played, so I guess I’m the stupid one, right?????
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Standout [314]
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Re: You lost your credibility
Mar 12, 2022, 12:22 AM
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"the love fest for PJ Hall is a bit overhyped! Top talent in the last 20-30 years?????? LOL!!! He averaged 15 points a game for a team that was 14-16, seriously enough. The ACC was the absolute worst it’s ever been this year, and we are proclaiming a player for us that averaged 15 PPG on a 14-16 team as the best player of our last 20-30 years."
That is your quote, right?
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: OMG
Mar 12, 2022, 12:06 AM
[ in reply to OMG ] |
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I think he's the best we've had since Booker. He's only a SO, so it's possible he gets to that level or surpasses him.
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All-TigerNet [10898]
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PJ Hall is so much better than Simms was as a sophomore!
Mar 12, 2022, 4:58 AM
[ in reply to OMG ] |
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AND...he played all year on a broken foot! If he stays healthy, he will be at least 2nd team All-ACC next year!
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 11, 2022, 11:14 PM
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The story those numbers don't tell is the trajectory of the program. Both of those guys took the program from a lower level and elevated it to a consistent tourney team that was a threat to win the ACC...then they left. Brownell took that consistent tourney team and brought us down a notch.
The only way to start building something is to bring in a new coach. We may strikeout, but we could find another good one.
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 11, 2022, 11:25 PM
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Here's SRS plotted for the last 5 coaches for what little it's worth. It's certainly comically flawed, but it's less flawed the overall W/L totals.
Message was edited by: ClemCE09®
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 12, 2022, 12:39 AM
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Here's a little more of a fair comparison between them. Year 0 is the final year of the previous coach. 1-5 are the final 5 years for each.
I added a final 4 year version since Barnes only had 4 years.
Message was edited by: ClemCE09®
Message was edited by: ClemCE09®
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110%er [6647]
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The better VT looks, the better Clemson looks...their
Mar 11, 2022, 11:26 PM
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ranking should rise to NIT level. Go Tiger@
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All-In [48021]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 11, 2022, 11:31 PM
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I never really judge a season until it's over as to how good or how bad it was. We beat some really bad teams. We lost to some really bad teams. Our one quality win this year was the last game of the season against va tech. Va Tech isn't ranked. I don't count close losses. As in Duke at Cameron by 2, or whatever. Teams like west va and st Bonnie we blew big leads turned out to be average quad 2 teams. Rutgers ended up about the same record as us.
I think a good high school team could beat NC State. We struggled to get a 5 and 6 point win. We looked good playing them. But the "them" are horrid.
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110%er [6647]
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We beat WF near end of season, and if not for luck, would
Mar 11, 2022, 11:47 PM
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have beaten VT twice. I watched the Tigers from the start, and they became a good team toward the end. The players improved and the team improved, what more can you ask for? GO TIGERS, hope they get the NIT bid, they surely deserve, esp. after what VT has a accomplished.
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: We beat WF near end of season, and if not for luck, would
Mar 11, 2022, 11:57 PM
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I could certainly ask for more in year 12. Being a tournament team would be a start.
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All-TigerNet [10400]
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Asst Coach [714]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 12, 2022, 12:26 AM
[ in reply to Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program.... ] |
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There’s a lot of valid points here on both sides of the argument. It’s a legit discussion and tough call. I don’t see CBB going anywhere this year but the expectations next year should be NCAA tournament or bust. As pointed out, we have one of our best players in years who should only be better next year, we return a lot of experience and have some high quality recruits coming in. If Brad can’t finish in top half of ACC and make the dance with that, he never will and it should be clear that it’s time to move on.
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Standout [314]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 11, 2022, 11:36 PM
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I've followed our program for 55+ years as a fan and alum. Quite frankly, until the mid 70s, we were to ACC basketball as Duke is to ACC football. We have a better rep now but nobody considers us a great basketball school. People think we can go out and find the next great coach and he will be dying to come to Clemson. When OP left, he left us in excellent shape but even after that run, who were the two best coaches available and willing to consider Clemson? BB and Rick Stansbury, neither not exactly Hall of Famers. Really would like to see an ACC BB championship before I die but I also remember a lot of single digit wins season also. In its long history of basketball, the two longest streaks of consecutive winning seasons are 9 consecutive seasons and 8 consecutive. Guess which coach has had a hand in both, Brownell. I ok with that kind of consistency.
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110%er [6647]
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~this! REALITY SETS IN, we have the best coach we can have
Mar 11, 2022, 11:53 PM
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right now. And he performed a miracle in his last few weeks of the season. Like Warren, I have been watching BB at Clemson for over 60 years, and this is one of the most improved team and players that I have seen here. The players worked really hard and next year could be really special, if Tyson would come back, and add a couple of quality portal players. Hall is the hardest working talented player I have ever seen at Clemson. If his foot injury is healed by next year===WATCH OUT!
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Legend [17227]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 12, 2022, 12:04 AM
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Premise: Every successful modern day Clemson Basketball Coach has bolted after they had success.
Fact: Brad has not bolted after 12 years.
Ergo: Brad is not a successful Clemson coach.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 12, 2022, 12:10 AM
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You left out one part from my post where I clarified..... only successful coach in the eyes of the average tnetter.
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Legend [17227]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 12, 2022, 12:19 AM
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Quote from the original post:
"If we we keep the status quo at Clemson and hire a successful coach, he will bolt and we are likely to get another Shyatt."
Message was edited by: tigerband1®
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All-TigerNet [11386]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 12, 2022, 12:33 AM
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So we don't take the chance because the coach will bolt? Lol
You can't worry about that. You try to get a very successful coach again, and next time you try harder to keep him...
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Legend [17227]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 12, 2022, 1:11 AM
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Clarified that was a quote from the original post.
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Orange Blooded [2420]
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Orange Blooded [2420]
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 12, 2022, 1:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program.... ] |
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So we don't take the chance because the coach will bolt? Lol
You can't worry about that. You try to get a very successful coach again, and next time you try harder to keep him...
That's not what I said, bozo.
If we are not going to change the overall strategy as it pertains to basketball, I give brownell 1 more year to make some noise. If he doesn't at least win a game or 2 in the tourney next year, he should be canned.
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All-TigerNet [11386]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 12, 2022, 12:12 AM
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Where is the part in those 11 years when Barnes and OP took us 6 NCAA bids,
And in 12 years Brad has just been to 3...?
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All-TigerNet [10400]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 12, 2022, 7:37 AM
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Does the first one count? Was the last won worth remembering when we were one and done against an inferior team, right after being one and done in the ACC tourney? BB has had only 1 really good team that he built (2017-18). Now he can’t cut it in an ACC that has turned into the worst power 5 conference.
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Heisman Winner [139844]
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Haha…
Mar 12, 2022, 7:36 AM
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You rounded down Oliver Purnell’s 60.5, and rounded up CBB’s 56.8.
Busted.
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CU Guru [1536]
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I am prob one of the VERY few...
Mar 12, 2022, 7:53 AM
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That think otherwise … and I admit I can’t see straight without the orange glasses on haha but IMO the PAW and Clemson brand have never been remotely as strong as it has been the last decade and more so recently mostly all thanks to Dabo and crew but either way it is … I’m not saying it’s a top or even mid upper tier job by any means but Clemson is in a way diff spot nationally than we were in the Barnes days and even OP days… it’s a great college town and again I’m not saying it’s a top tier job before someone jumps me but what I’m saying is that I believe we can pull a decent name here … again I said decent. I mean especially with the upgrades in facilities and playing im a winnable ACC with a lot of legendary coaching turnover going on. And on top of all that there is absolutely no pressure … I mean you could make 2-3 tourneys in 12 years and still have a job … no one is expecting national titles or even sweet 16 runs on the regular … I don’t know I just think it’s a better job than some of you give it credit for
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Hall of Famer [22380]
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Lets go get a good basketball coach that can win
Mar 12, 2022, 9:52 AM
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and if he wants to leave, lets try to keep him and if he does leave, lets get another one.
No more excuses.
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All-In [46410]
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Re: Lets go get a good basketball coach that can win
Mar 12, 2022, 11:52 AM
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We need to have a vision for Clemson Basketball & a coach that fits that vision. We are accepting failure as good enough and nobody(fans, players or Alumni) is happy or satisfied with the program.
Look for a coach with a vision to win and let’s get behind him 100%. We can be great in Basketball. Let’s Go Tigers!
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Legend [16212]
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I would love to see what Greg Buckner could do here
Mar 12, 2022, 2:16 PM
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running the program. One of our own for a change, which would be novel. NBA chops, in the coaching ranks now, knows what Clemson basketball can accomplish, and is personable and would engage the community. He would bring badly needed energy to the program.
Add in a former head coach as an assistant for a limited gig, and let 'er rip.
Go Tigers.
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110%er [5465]
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Re: We need to seriously rethink our BBall program....
Mar 12, 2022, 3:12 PM
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I agree. We need to rethink our program and set a goal of top 25 every year. If not that then a minimum of making the tourney every year. There are 66 teams in the tourney. Shouldn’t we be at least that?
Our current regime and coach cannot attain this. Time to move on. Past time to move on.
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