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Replies: 47
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CU Guru [1170]
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I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone
Jan 5, 2022, 1:18 AM
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So, to the ones that want him fired,
Who's your choice to replace him
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Commissioner [976]
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We have no clue who will be available
Jan 5, 2022, 2:57 AM
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I trust Graham to interview the best people possible and make a good hire. I’d start with:
1. Wes Miller
2. Travis Steele
3. Bob Richey
4. Mike Boynton
5. Andy Toole
We have great facilities, are in a winnable power 5 league, pay our coaches well, and give coaches a very long leash/endless chances. I would think most of those on the list would be very interested.
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Tiger Cub [11]
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Re: We have no clue who will be available
Jan 5, 2022, 4:19 AM
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Good list and I totally agree with you. I have been wanting a change for years. So much $$$ has been put into the Clemson basketball program it is time to get something in return for the investment. Brad is not the guy to do it. I could write paragraphs about what I think is wrong and what I would do to fix it but no one wants to read that. Besides Graham is the expert and gets paid to make these moves.  Cheers to the future!
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CU Guru [1306]
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Commissioner [976]
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Re: We have no clue who will be available
Jan 5, 2022, 9:24 AM
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And if we played Furman they’d probably beat us. Or we would at least be outcoached and look lost on offense.
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CU Guru [1306]
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Re: We have no clue who will be available
Jan 5, 2022, 11:24 AM
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Not hard to out coach BB. But definitely don’t think Bob would get it done at Clemson, he’s not even winning the conf at furman. And he’s a ###### and a coot.
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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I'll add a few other Big East Coaches to your list...
Jan 5, 2022, 8:16 AM
[ in reply to We have no clue who will be available ] |
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Ed Cooley at Providence. He is been stuck there for awhile but a great recruiter, and a big power 5 job from being very relevant here. Having a good season this season
Kevin Willard at Seaton Hall. Another guy from taking a power 5 job from excelling. A very good recruiter and his teams play very hard.
Also Gregg McDermott at Creighton. Even a better x and o coach and his teams play very hard also.
These three would have an effect on a football school like Nate Oats has had at Alabama.
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Commissioner [976]
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Love that list...
Jan 5, 2022, 10:39 AM
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I’d also call around and figure out why Turg was fired from Merryland. If it wasn’t anything dirty, I’d interview him too.
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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He is a better coach than Brad...
Jan 5, 2022, 10:57 AM
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But don't think he would be interested in another football school. Was at Texas a&m for years and would complain about non football support. The three guys I mentioned like to market their brand, and Turg is more of a just coach and leave that to the school. Similar to Brad.
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Commissioner [976]
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That’s a really good point
Jan 5, 2022, 11:00 AM
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Guess he’d be a better replacement for frank Martin if he doesn’t want a football school.
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110%er [7191]
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Re: I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone
Jan 5, 2022, 3:21 AM
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Your obviously new here because that question has been asked at least once for every loss the fans ,myself included, the fans have asking for the past 10 years.
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All-In [31303]
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Re: I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone
Jan 5, 2022, 6:52 AM
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Used to consider myself a huge sports fan but lost interest in bball on the college and NBA levels. I have no clue anymore on who the good coaching candidates are anymore. Never thought I would be that guy lol.
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Letterman [257]
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Re: I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone
Jan 5, 2022, 10:43 AM
[ in reply to Re: I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone ] |
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Okay???? and your point is???? It’s a good question dingus. If you didn’t want to answer, don’t click on his post?????
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110%er [6858]
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Literally anyone at this point***
Jan 5, 2022, 7:00 AM
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All-In [27319]
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Re: I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone
Jan 5, 2022, 7:49 AM
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This exact post has been posted multiple times a year every year for the last 3 years.
It won’t be long before the new AD makes a change. Clemson Basketball has become too stale.
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All-In [30820]
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Bill Laimbeer***
Jan 5, 2022, 7:55 AM
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Walk-On [138]
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Re: I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone
Jan 5, 2022, 8:33 AM
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Don't we need to let the season play out before we start looking for a basketball coach?
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110%er [5512]
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Re: I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone
Jan 5, 2022, 4:09 PM
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We've tried it that way 11 times.
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Legend [18790]
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Bobby Knight
Jan 5, 2022, 8:34 AM
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I think even at 81 he would be an improvement. Just kidding, not really following basketball anymore.
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All-In [27319]
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Re: Bobby Knight
Jan 5, 2022, 8:48 AM
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Same here. It’s tough to follow. That’s the problem it’s stale. Everyone knows it’s the same old Brad Brownell team. Win a few lose a few. Very little excitement. The new AD has to make a change to stoke the flames of old basketball fans in order to re-energize this program. The only way to do that is to bring in a new HC. Even if the new guy brings the same level of success Brownell brings it’ll make people more interested and fill the seats because of the new and unknown. I’m not a basketball fan. Never have been. But I used to really enjoy Clemson basketball. But it’s just stale now.
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Legend [18790]
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Stale is a good word to describe it
Jan 5, 2022, 9:00 AM
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A sweet 16 every 10 years should be a requirement to hold on to the job.
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Re: I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone
Jan 5, 2022, 8:58 AM
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That question is ridiculous.
You find an energetic coach with passion and fire, and you give them a shot. What do you have to lose? Maybe lose our status of being in the middle to bottom of the now bad ACC? Maybe missing out on our dance invite every few years? Maybe losing in the first round of the ACC tournament? I would risk that.
John scheyer is going to be the new coach of Duke.
Hubert Davis is the new coach of unc.
Not huge names on a list, but right for them at the moment.
Time to try someone else.
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All-TigerNet [12539]
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Anyone. Nobody should get a decade plus without some
Jan 5, 2022, 9:29 AM
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significant improvement in the program.
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Orange Blooded [4760]
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Re: I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone
Jan 5, 2022, 9:53 AM
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Get Arthur to remove him. He’s good at removing poasts.
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CU Medallion [65422]
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That same tired argument was being made while the boreds
Jan 5, 2022, 10:02 AM
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were split back in 2008 between Bowden pumpers and those howling for his head. (I was firmly in the latter camp, especially after the Weak Florist 12-7 debacle. That is when myself and about 10,000 of my closest friends sent letters to the President begging for his removal.)
The worst argument in the world for keeping a mediocre coach is worrying that you cannot do better. If you DON"T think Clemson can do better, then you are by default saying that you accept this mediocrity as the best Clemson can be in basketball.
Bring on all the tirades about us not spending money to properly support the program, yada yada yoo hoo. It may all be TRUE. Butt, if we ever want to stop it BEING true, something has to change.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: That same tired argument was being made while the boreds
Jan 5, 2022, 10:35 AM
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I don't disagree with you but Basketball=/=Football
It is one thing having a top-tier investment in the football program and then getting mediocre results - and getting beat by a program at the bottom of the investment pool. Basketball is getting mediocre results with lower-third investment. It is all ROI. I don't think that keeping Brownell equals keeping mediocrity. I think it would be a stability - as finally mediocrity is our floor, not our cap.
My point is this: you don't opt for the nuclear option (coach change midseason) sitting at 9-5 and three game into the season UNLESS you have a beyond home-run replacement already in cue. Right now, our Ls came against teams with 3 wins. We have not started 0-3 like NC State, VT, or GT. We are not a bad team, we are a hot/cold team and that is a bit different. Now if we collapse, yeah, press the button. If we improve - again, why pres the button.
Right now, the non-upper tier P5+ programs are struggling (SEC being the current exception). It is a true wilderness for "also ran" programs like our basketball program. Programs are not "recovering" easily. If we were coming our Shyatt years, we would be in a LOT of trouble in the modern climate. Just jumping to jump has a lot more risk. Keep in mind that we just came off one of our best seasons -especially considering the SoS last year.
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CU Medallion [65422]
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Nope, I can agree on not firing a coach in the middle of a
Jan 5, 2022, 10:42 AM
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season. Especially a basketball coach. I can't think of that happening right offhand, although it probably has happened, somewhere.
I believe that "The Nuclear Option" happened in football in mid-2008 because it HAD to happen. The fanbase was bailing, speaking with their wallets AND voices, Clemson was the punchline of just about daily jokes on ESPN and other sports talk venues.
When you consider just how bad it was back then, it makes what Dabo Swinney has accomplished since then just that much more remarkable. And, again, as I have said on here many times, I give Terry Don Phillips all the kudos for having some major Cajones to KEEP Dabo after the 6-7 season in 2010. It would have been easy to bail out on Dabo then, but TDP chose the unpopular option, and man, did that river card gamble ever pay off for Clemson.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Nope, I can agree on not firing a coach in the middle of a
Jan 5, 2022, 11:08 AM
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Alford at UCLA is the last I can remember, but a few programs have done it - but much more rare in the BB community.
Yeah, I agree it had to happen in 2008. Losing to wake is basically automatic (although Tommy collected a few). I think he was "out" before the Wake game but Wake accelerated it. TDP was both equal parts lucky and genius.
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CU Medallion [65422]
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I have no "connections", but I kind of got the general
Jan 5, 2022, 11:18 AM
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impression that there were some pretty influential people who were highly upset with TDP for sticking with Coach Swinney at the time, and that may have played into TDP's ultimate decision to step aside as AD. Any knowledge of such?
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I have no "connections", but I kind of got the general
Jan 5, 2022, 12:38 PM
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Maybe but I doubt it was "the" reason but I don't have those connections either.
TDP was what, 64/65 or there abouts when he retired but was also on his last year of his contract. I think that was as much of TDP own exit planning if anything. That was 2012 or 2013 right? Dabo's stock was climbing then for the most part from the 2010 low (although the coot streak grumbles). We were in the middle of some reno projects so the "next round" planning was looming. Good time to move on...
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Commissioner [976]
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We’re just not bottom third on investing in
Jan 5, 2022, 11:17 AM
[ in reply to Re: That same tired argument was being made while the boreds ] |
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Our program, though. Brand new building, beautiful facilities, and our HC makes more than at last 25 coaches that are much better than him. Not to mention when Purnell was here fan support was insanely good. At one point top 10 in the country good. We are in a prime position to develop a very strong basketball program. You may consider 2 tournament appearances in the last 10 years mediocre, but some would consider that “poor”.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: We’re just not bottom third on investing in
Jan 5, 2022, 12:46 PM
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You right, we are often dead last - fighting it out with BC.
UVA spent 170M back in 2006. We spent $70M a few years ago. VCU has outspent us here.
BB's direct salary is "average" for the ACC (but keep in mind that other have lower base pay but could/do make more based on other avenues - see Notre Dame).
Our BB expenditures remain in the bottom 1/3
Ironically, fan attendance was higher during the Shaytt years than the OP years.
During OP's BEST year, Clemson ranked 73rd in attendance at 7,300 per year. Shyatt had 8,100 in a 13 win season.
Basketball attendance has been dropping national since 2006. We have had 15 straight years of declining attendance but likely this year will halt that only because of covid etc.
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Commissioner [976]
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You act like spending = quality
Jan 5, 2022, 1:34 PM
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Maryland outspent us on their football practice facilities. Do they have better facilities than us? No.
We have a great arena that is on campus, with phenomenal facilities that are state of the art. Definitely top half of the league. Brownlee is paid in the middle of the league, but way overpaid considering what more talented coaches are making.
And like I said, when we have real leadership our fan support is top tier. The only thing holding us back is fear and low expectations. Can you name an ACC coach to make the tournament twice in 10 years and get an extension?
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110%er [6825]
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Re: You act like spending = quality
Jan 5, 2022, 2:32 PM
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IDK Cole is fairly epic.
Invest Leads to Success. It isn't guaranteed but without investment, you are not having success. We invest in BB only when it is to the point of condemnation. Lets start with Press. We did not bother with a BB coach until decades after other schools. We were behind for the first 50 or so years as BB was just a sport to pad Football Assistant salaries. You are not going to make up that level of disinterest mearly keeping up with the Jones. If we want BB to become top tier, we need to out-invest the top tier. Be a "Maryland". But anyone that even BOTHERS to follow Ath Dept knows that the twerps are case No 1 on mismanagement. You can't buy success but you can't cheap out.
You have to pull a UVA. grossly outspend on a facility a decade before and hope, no pray that a sweet-sixteen program is going to cut its BB budget and run off a NC level coach. And then hope they have at least some ties to the area to land them. UVA getting Bennett in 2009 was something that happened in 2000 with the JPJ reno concept.
2013-2014 - we were a tourney team. We were 20 wins and 10-8 in conference. In fact, they took a 9-9 NC State that we beat by 17 points below us in the standings.
So 4 NCAA tourney level teams in a decade which included being homeless and rebuilding post-purnell. That makes him on par with Jim (4 appearances). Pastner has only 1 appearance at GT. And at least two NCAA foulups I think. He is matching Gottfried without being dubious. Since 2010, we have been to the NCAA more than Wake - that should say something.
If you had a dollar, would you spend it on the Football team or the Basketball Team? Now ask that same question for other ACC fanbases. You will see where the investment flows. It will be either FB or BB. And of course GT will say tricycles.
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Commissioner [976]
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Again spending =\= quality
Jan 5, 2022, 3:32 PM
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We have an on campus arena. It’s really, really nice. We have locker rooms and practice facilities that are top notch. And when we have a good coach, our fans support him better than just about any other school.
So you can whine about dollars, but present day we have everything necessary to have a great basketball program, minus a coach.
Ask how many fan bases wish their arena were a skip and a jump from their dorm, on campus. Ask how many wish they had our practice facilities. What exactly would you spend this unnecessary cash on? I can think of only 1 thing… a coach.
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110%er [6825]
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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I don't know where you pulled attendance from....
Jan 5, 2022, 2:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: We’re just not bottom third on investing in ] |
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You right, we are often dead last - fighting it out with BC.
UVA spent 170M back in 2006. We spent $70M a few years ago. VCU has outspent us here.
BB's direct salary is "average" for the ACC (but keep in mind that other have lower base pay but could/do make more based on other avenues - see Notre Dame).
Our BB expenditures remain in the bottom 1/3
Ironically, fan attendance was higher during the Shaytt years than the OP years.
During OP's BEST year, Clemson ranked 73rd in attendance at 7,300 per year. Shyatt had 8,100 in a 13 win season.
Basketball attendance has been dropping national since 2006. We have had 15 straight years of declining attendance but likely this year will halt that only because of covid etc.
But this was copied from official University Basketball media guide:
Games Attendance Avg. Results Pct.
1968-69 11 55,150 5,014 4-7 .364
1969-70 11 50,877 4,625 6-5 .546
1970-71 12 63,488 5,291 8-4 .667
1971-72 10 81,278 8,128 6-4 .600
1972-73 11 85,750 7,795 9-2 .818
1973-74 13 103,519 7,963 9-4 .692
1974-75 12 113,515 9,460 11-1 .917
1975-76 13 107,220 8,248 8-5 .615
1976-77 15 134,841 8,883 13-2 .867
1977-78 15 138,115 9,208 10-5 .667
1978-79 16 144,535 9,033 13-3 .813
1979-80 15 130,900 8,727 15-0 1.000
1980-81 16 145,792 9,112 12-4 .750
1981-82 16 139,731 8,733 11-5 .688
1982-83 16 131,063 8,191 9-7 .563
1983-84 16 129,600 8,100 11-5 .688
1984-85 16 130,136 8,134 12-4 .750
1985-86 19 144,699 7,616 14-5 .737
1986-87 17 142,274 8,369 15-2 .882
1987-88 16 117,250 7,328 12-4 .750
1988-89 14 114,123 8,151 13-1 .929
1989-90 14 122,540 8,753 14-0 1.000
1990-91 16 121,314 7,582 9-7 .563
1991-92 16 114,691 7,168 12-4 .750
1992-93 16 113,803 7,113 11-5 .688
1993-94 15 108,074 7,205 11-4 .733
1994-95 16 116,754 7,297 11-5 .688
1995-96 16 150,037 9,377 14-2 .875
1996-97 15 147,019 9,801 12-3 .800
1997-98 14 156,103 11,151 11-3 .786
1998-99 15 141,728 9,449 12-3 .800
1999-00 16 142,679 8,918 7-9 .438
2000-01 16 137,909 8,619 9-7 .563
2001-02 16 139,954 8,747 8-8 .500
2002-03 9 80,600 8,956 5-4 .555
2003-04 16 122,900 7,681 10-6 .625
2004-05 15 111,886 7,459 10-5 .667
2005-06 16 106,251 6,641 12-4 .750
2006-07 20 147,122 7,356 16-4 .800
2007-08 16 137,739 8,609 14-2 .875
2008-09 16 135,619 8,476 13-3 .813
2009-10 16 151,442 9,465 14-2 .875
2010-11 17 140,920 8,289 15-2 .882
2011-12 16 125,249 7,828 11-5 .688
2012-13 15 118,305 7,887 8-7 .533
2013-14 19 142,231 7,486 16-3 .842
2014-15 17 129,800 7,635 11-6 .611
2015-16 Home games held in Greenville, S.C. due to renovation
2016-17 17 123,442 7,262 11-6 .611
2017-18 16 123,895 7,743 15-1 .938
2018-19 19 133,290 7,015 14-5 .737
2019-20 17 116,139 6,832 11-6 .647
2020-21 12 21,613* 1,801 11-1 .917
Totals 773 6,284,895 8,131 568-205 .
OP years started in 3-4
Brad years started in 10-11
OP's last year average was close to 9.5k per game in 9-10. Look how it was climbing each year in from all 7 season especially the last four when we were very relevant in college basketball with a brand.
And look how Brad has it declining in his second year. Can not count after the renovation season because now less seats but think we can do better than that for amount of seats in the arena now.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I don't know where you pulled attendance from....
Jan 5, 2022, 3:05 PM
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Shoot, I took the 2006-2007 number when googled them - my error there - pulled the wrong year. Lets not forget OP's best year was 07/08 win-wise. Also, lets point out where the football program was in 2008. You can also track football success to a lesser extent as well following the trends.
Still the NCAA average attendance from all schools has been in decline since 2006. The renovations hurt more. BB was a steady 7,8-- prior. I still think the renos did more harm to fan attendance than anything else.
Still Shyatt kept it nearly 9K.
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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Re: I don't know where you pulled attendance from....
Jan 5, 2022, 3:08 PM
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Think no relation on Shyatt's last season. Probably more to with the year there were less TV games aired. But look at overall OP years and attendance was rising each season.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I don't know where you pulled attendance from....
Jan 5, 2022, 3:16 PM
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You also got me thinking that I need to pull attendance by team. You note a noticeable drop in 14 despite that being one of our better seasons. We only hosted Duke of note that season. Other wise we hosted BC, WF, GT, NC State, Maryland, Pittsburg, UVA, and Miami. Not a great slate.
I can't imagine having the expansion teams is doing us any favors. I think this *would * have been one of the few seasons we would have had Duke and UNC both at home in a while. Dook seems less likely now.
I don't see out matchups against Pitt, BC, Miami, and ND driving ticket sales.
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Letterman [257]
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Re: I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone
Jan 5, 2022, 10:47 AM
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Mr. Loughry.
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CU Guru [1950]
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Joined: 9/12/04
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This is not first question to ask when deciding whether or
Jan 5, 2022, 11:06 AM
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not to retain a coach. The question is, will Clemson be successful with ___________ as head coach.
If the answer is no to whatever success criteria you've created, you move on and you begin the search for someone you believe can be successful.
With that said, I have no idea how Brownell has lasted this long. He had a stretch of 6 straight seasons without making the NCAA Tournament. And these past 5 years, while still not great, were far more successful than the first 7, so I'm not sure we'll make a change any time soon. We seem to be completely fine with having a program that makes the NCAA Tournament once ever 3-4 years.
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Oculus Spirit [80298]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23591
Joined: 8/21/06
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Larry Shyatt***
Jan 5, 2022, 11:29 AM
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Rock Defender [67]
TigerPulse: 91%
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Joined: 11/23/09
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Re: I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone
Jan 5, 2022, 11:46 AM
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Greg Buckner, an alum that has been NBA assistant for awhile now.
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Orange Blooded [4053]
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Joined: 3/6/01
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Many of us wanted a change 5-6 years ago
Jan 5, 2022, 11:46 AM
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but have just given up interest now. Clemson has spent a decade flip flopping between fire him/keep him. The administration has obviously decided that making the tournament is not a job requirement, even though 68 teams do so. It is pointless to argue anymore.
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Oculus Spirit [80298]
TigerPulse: 100%
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I know many other season ticket holders that feel this same way.***
Jan 5, 2022, 11:48 AM
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Legend [17599]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14152
Joined: 10/24/10
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Re: I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone
Jan 5, 2022, 4:05 PM
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Anyone but Shyatt.
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Orange Blooded [4454]
TigerPulse: 91%
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Joined: 1/1/19
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Re: I see a lot of our fans want Brad Brownell gone
Jan 5, 2022, 4:15 PM
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Unfortunately I felt another Tommy Bowden situation coming on and that we would lose to Virginia. Va is 3-1 in ACC and we are 1-2 but I do believe we have the better team. The starch and charisma of the coach does make a difference.
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