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All-In [27300]
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Culture of winning vs a culture of mediocrity
Jan 15, 2022, 6:55 AM
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In roughly the same number of years Clemson football and Clemson basketball have been led by new head coaches. One coach changed the culture. Changed it for the players, fans, and even the nation. He turned an oft under achieving program into a high level national powerhouse.
The other just coaches game to game. He does a good enough job I guess by many standards. Sometimes gets lucky and squeaks into the NCAA. But he hasn’t changed the perception that Clemson basketball, is what it is, and it can never be anything more. Even the greatest fans on this board will tell you Clemson basketball is in the best shape it’s ever been in.
Well I’ll say this. Give me a low standard and I’ll never work harder than I have to. Tell me to reach for the stars and make me believe I can touch them, and I’ll do things I never knew I was capable of.
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110%er [9683]
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Addendum: Brownell’s starting salary was higher than Dabo’s.
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Jan 15, 2022, 7:14 AM
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Same year!
Absolutely amazing fact, and it blows the “whoa is me BrownL” arguments completely out of the water.
Dabo earned his. Plain and simple. That’s how it works.
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110%er [8530]
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Re: Addendum: Brownell’s starting salary was higher than Dabo’s.
Jan 15, 2022, 8:56 AM
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Are you dumb enough to think that if we paid a basketball coach more money we would win?
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CU Medallion [58406]
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You don't really think that was his point, do you?***
Jan 15, 2022, 9:02 AM
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110%er [9683]
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Probably does. LOL***
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Jan 15, 2022, 9:22 AM
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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All-In [44026]
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No, Dabo took a low salary because he had zero negotiating power
Jan 15, 2022, 10:14 AM
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when he was hired.
He was really eager for the opportunity and knew that he wasn’t qualified for the job on paper.
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All-In [44026]
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We paid Brad more because he was qualified for the job
Jan 15, 2022, 10:07 AM
[ in reply to Addendum: Brownell’s starting salary was higher than Dabo’s. ] |
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and Dabo wasn’t.
We also had to pay Bowden millions of dollars to go away. We didn’t owe a former basketball coach any money, because we didn’t fire him - he left in the middle of the night without telling anyone.
Today, we should all agree that Dabo has earned his current salary and Brownell has earned his.
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Oculus Spirit [76884]
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110%er [7191]
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Re: Culture of winning vs a culture of mediocrity
Jan 15, 2022, 8:36 AM
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Contact Graham Neff, Clemson Athletics and see if he is willing to give you a try at being our new Basketball coach since you seem to be so high on yourself.
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All-In [27300]
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Re: Culture of winning vs a culture of mediocrity
Jan 15, 2022, 8:53 AM
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Ha
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CU Medallion [58406]
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List of excuses ...
Jan 15, 2022, 8:49 AM
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(I know we hate lists, but here it is) And they are all just that - excuses. It's just a matter of getting serious about basketball and making a commitment to be better.
1. "We've NEVER been that good in basketball, therefore, we never can and never will be". This one is used a lot, but just stop and think about that for one second (if you really have to) and wrap your mind around that logic, and shake your head along with me in amazement at the profound stupidity there. Most other excuses start here or are rooted in this mentality.
2. "Clemson is a football school, and the fans don't care about basketball". We are definitely a football school, but I call BS on the idea that our fans wouldn't go batsh!t crazy over a top 10 basketball team. I haven't been to a basketball game in years, but I have been to many when we had scrappy teams that we felt had a chance against the big boys, and I'd swear the roof was going to blow off of Littlejohn. If that spirit hasn't been totally squashed over the last decade, I know our fans would support a good basketball program; I think there is an element of the fanbase that is starving for it.
3. "Because of it's basketball history, and it's geographical location, Clemson can't attract good basketball players". While it's true that our lack of a winning tradition is a real hurdle in recruiting, it's something that can be overcome with the proper commitment to the goal and all of the right pieces in place, one step at a time. It's a sales job, and it's got to start somewhere, at some point. To say that it can't be done is to give up on Clemson basketball, IMHO. Let's face it, UNC is not the steamroller they once were; Dean Smith is dead and Roy Williams is retired. Duke is still good, but Coach K is 100 years old and on his last leg. GT and UVA are shadows of their former selves. From that perspective, there is a window, a chance for Clemson to move up in the conference. As far as geographical location, long gone are the days when all of the good players came from New York or DC or Atlanta or LA. The way high school and amateur basketball is run now, great basketball players pop up all over, and will go where they have a chance to play, develop, and get exposure. Absolutely no reason Clemson can't be that place for many.
4. Insert your own excuse here
I know this: UNC would not have been a basketball powerhouse for decades without players like Jordan, Worthy, Carter, Perkins, Ford, etc.. Duke would not have been consistently great without players like Hill, Reddick, Laetner, Dawkins, Williamson, etc..Clemson football would never, EVER have been great without studs like Deshaun Watson, Sammy Watkins, Trevor Lawrence, Travis Etienne, Christian Wilkins, Tee Higgins, Nuk Hopkins, AJ Terrell, Dexter Lawrence, etc.. Bottom line, all great teams, all consistently good programs have good/great talent. We are kidding ourselves if we believe we can ever have a better basketball program without a significant upgrade in talent. As I have pointed out, to say that we "can't" do it is a LIE. Not saying it would be easy or happen overnight, but I think with the right coach, and the support from the BOT and the AD, we could build a better, more exciting, more competitive basketball program at Clemson, and it would be a shame if we don't try.
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110%er [8530]
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Re: Culture of winning vs a culture of mediocrity
Jan 15, 2022, 8:54 AM
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Get over it because getting to the top in basketball takes special talents coming in for 1, 2 or 3 years and only a few schools have that ability to attract them. It used to be the ACC that had at least a few of those guys but now it largely only Duke and is spread out especially to the Big 12. A coach cannot just change that cycle for us. It will just take a kid who wants to be a pioneer and then a wagon train grows. CJ Spiller was that guy in football, but we have never had a CJ in basketball.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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Re: Culture of winning vs a culture of mediocrity
Jan 15, 2022, 9:05 AM
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AMEN BROTHERS. Everyone of y’all has excellent points. We need to get behind Basketball like we do in Football. Express your feelings not to just on this board but start with the new AD and then to the BOT. Then just don’t stop at one letter or email, keep making contact. The “squeaky wheel gets the oil.”
That is what happened in Football and the same can happen in Basketball if we get behind the program, regardless of who the coach is. I am not just speaking to everyone else, I am speaking to myself. We ALL can do a BETTER JOB in supporting the Basketball program and other programs too like Baseball and Football.
Remember, “The Best is the Standard.” And GO TIGERS!!!!!!
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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Re: Culture of winning vs a culture of mediocrity
Jan 15, 2022, 9:10 AM
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I meant like Baseball and Soccer. Even when we just one a National Championship. Get behind the Women’s Programs too. Look how our neighbors to the south are yelling at the mountain top about their Women’s Basketball Program. (They don’t have anything else) ??
GO TIGERS!!!!!!
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110%er [9683]
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Are you equating
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Jan 15, 2022, 9:27 AM
[ in reply to Re: Culture of winning vs a culture of mediocrity ] |
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building a football team of 100+ players to building a basketball team of 15 (where you can win with 5-10)?
You really think that’s the same, and takes approximately the same amount of time?
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All-In [27300]
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Re: Are you equating
Jan 15, 2022, 9:53 AM
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Are you asking me if I believe a consistently successful basketball program can be built in a decade?
Then yes…yes I think 10+ years is enough to take a program like Clemson and raise the bar significantly and consistently every year.
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110%er [9683]
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Nah, I was replying to “Valley Boy”’s comment above.
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Jan 15, 2022, 9:59 AM
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I agree with you.
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All-In [27300]
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All-In [44026]
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Yes, and Brad recruited and developed them.
Jan 15, 2022, 10:17 AM
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Both of them are playing professional basketball now.
Glad you recognize the great job our coaches did with them.
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All-In [27300]
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Re: Yes, and Brad recruited and developed them.
Jan 15, 2022, 10:26 AM
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I did. That’s why I decided not to include Trevor Booker on that list.
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CU Medallion [65340]
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I certainly am not among those who think Clemson basketball
Jan 15, 2022, 9:31 AM
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is in the best shape it has ever been in. There were times under Ellis, Foster, Purnell, and even Barnes for his short tenure where the perception was better than it is right now.
What is lacking right now is HOPE for better things. Because, the Webster Dictionary definition of Insanity is doing things the same as you always have, but expecting different results.
I don't think the answer is money, although Judge seems to think that would be a magic cure. What we need is exactly what you described Dabo to be. A coach with a completely different vision of what Clemson Basketball COULD be. Basketball has the same student body, same Alumni base, same EVERYTHING as football and the other sports. All it lacks is the right guy at the helm, who knows how to fight for his program.
Do you think Dabo's success with the football program happened overnight? If you do, you sure as Heyall weren't paying attention. He had to FIGHT for it. He knew what he wanted and needed from a facilities standpoint, and lobbied tirelessly, until he GOT that commitment.
I just don't see Brad Brownell ever being that guy. He would be too afraid he might upset someone. Now, Judge may live in BB's basement, and has a different point of view, I am sure. But, the results are what they are, and will continue to be just that.
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CU Medallion [58406]
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Vision. That's it. Bigger and better. Without that, there
Jan 15, 2022, 9:40 AM
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is no hope. Nothing to look forward to, nothing to hope for, no dream. Just more of the same, one step forward, one step back; rinse and repeat. Never win the ACC. Never. Forget about it. Never finish in the top 10. Squash that. No hope. Zero excitement. Just more of the same. If that's what they want, if that's how they define succes, then we're there; bust out the champagne and cigars and let's cut loose! Otherwise, the path couldn't be more clear.
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All-In [27300]
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Re: Vision. That's it. Bigger and better. Without that, there
Jan 15, 2022, 9:50 AM
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So in other words same ol boring basketball
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CU Medallion [58406]
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Re: Vision. That's it. Bigger and better. Without that, there
Jan 15, 2022, 10:02 AM
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Pretty much. A game or two where we look good, then a game or two where we couldn't beat a good high school team. Finish mid-pack in conference, probably go to NIT and may win one game, or go to NCAA if we have a great year, finish in the top 6 in conference and have a couple of good wins, only to get bounced in the first round by a team we're favored to beat.
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CU Guru [1250]
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Apples and Oranges, But Not For Long
Jan 15, 2022, 9:39 AM
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Comparing college football to college basketball is the old apple to oranges comparison. The current NIL situation is rapidly altering the landscape and your argument will the be 100% valid.
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All-In [44026]
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It’s hilarious that you are trying to make this comparison.
Jan 15, 2022, 10:13 AM
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You clearly don’t like the direction our basketball program is headed. That’s your right, of course, but it’s a low blow to accuse Brad of not trying hard or putting forth enough effort.
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All-In [27300]
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Re: It’s hilarious that you are trying to make this comparison.
Jan 15, 2022, 10:34 AM
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What direction is that exactly?
It seems like you are not happy with the direction either.
So you have half of a fan base who disagrees with the programs direction because of lack of consistency, success.
And the other half of a fan base who disagrees with the programs direction because of lack of funding and institutional support.
So here sits a major collegiate basketball program with almost 100% of its fans disappointed in one aspect or the other.
The ONLY recipe at this point is a complete overhaul to breathe new life into the program.
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Commissioner [976]
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Legend [16240]
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Re: Culture of winning vs a culture of mediocrity
Jan 15, 2022, 10:36 AM
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Part of the difference I see lies in developing leadership on the field and on the court. Dabo has been a master at getting his kids to lead others, and that's where much of the magic happens. We saw what a lack of leadership looked like on offense this season until Will Shipley stepped up and filled the void, in words and deeds. It is seldom that the football team does not have solid leadership on the field on both sides of the ball.
I don't really see this from Brownell and our basketball team. We always seem to have talent, but we seldom have a player on the court that takes a true leadership role. KJ delivered there his junior year, Gabe Devoe rose to the occasion his senior year and led us to that Sweet 16 appearance. Aamir Simms, though his stats backslid some, definitely helped last year by keeping the mood light. But overall, we just don't seem to have that type of presence on the court consistently enough, and thus our inconsistent seasons and performances.
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Commissioner [976]
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Fortunately we only have to suffer through 15 more games
Jan 15, 2022, 10:42 AM
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And then we get a new coach and another football season coming up. Really excited to see who we bring in next season. It’ll be easy to come in like a breath of fresh air.
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Orange Blooded [2847]
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You Are Wrong
Jan 15, 2022, 11:35 AM
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I laughed at the he coaches "game to game" comment. All coaches coach game to game. You act like CBB doesn't care about success and winning. Nobody, and I mean nobody, wants Clemson basketball to succeed more than CBB. It was be refreshing to have some positive support from this board but that is not ever going to happen for ANY Clemson basketball coach. Clemson fans have a football mentality. When the football team loses one game, they lose their minds. Most basketball teams lose more than one game a season. When Clemson basketball loses a game, this board goes nuts and wants to fire everybody. I challenge you to go back and look at the history of Clemson basketball. Just look at it. It is not good. Winning records in the ACC are rare. Winning on the road in the ACC is really rare. Past Clemson coaches have come in, had one or two successful season and then bolted for other jobs. Or the results season after season were so bad they got fired. CBB has built a culture at Clemson. His teams are tough, defensive minded, and no matter the situation, the players keep playing. He has shown he can develop players. And he should be a real favorite with the fans because he has mined the transfer portal and added players who have made positive contributions to the program. And I know you don't want to hear it, but CBB also has an excellent record when it comes to players getting their degrees.
ACC Era 1953 Forward
Banks McFadden
0 winning seasons in 3 seasons in the ACC...had 2 winning seasons in 7 seasons in the Southern Conference prior to the ACC being formed
Press Maravich
O winning seasons in 6 seasons
Bobby Roberts
3 winning seasons in 8 seasons
Tates Locke
2 winning seasons in 5 seasons...left program on major probation
Bill Foster
6 winning seasons in 9 seasons...3 20-win seasons...was 39-48 in his final three seasons...left Clemson to restart program at Miami
Cliff Ellis
7 winning seasons in 10 seasons...2 20-win seasons...still coaching at Coastal Carolina...has taken four different schools to the NCAA Tournament
Rick Barnes
4 winning seasons in 4 seasons...1 20-win season left for bigger money at Texas
Larry Shyatt
2 winning seasons in 5 seasons...1 20-win season
Oliver Purnell
5 winning seasons in 7 seasons...closed his Clemson career with 4 straight 20-win seasons...left Clemson for DePaul where it did not go well
Brad Brownell
10 winning seasons in 11 seasons...5 20-win seasons...his current streak of eight straight winning seasons in the longest in Clemson basketball history...although sub .500 in ACC play (96-102) no other Clemson coach comes close to his ACC winning percentage
As you can see, Clemson basketball does not have a glorious history, but no one can argue CBB has not built a program. He played a major part in the Littlejohn upgrade by helping with fund raising.
Clemson basketball all-time record including this season's 10-6 record -- 1,373-1,332
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All-In [27300]
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Re: You Are Wrong
Jan 15, 2022, 11:49 AM
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I laughed at you contradictory statement when you said “when football loses…fans go nuts” “when basketball loses…this board(which is a Clemson fan board) goes nuts” but yet you say we don’t care about basketball. Open your eyes man. If we didn’t care why would we be so upset after losing.
And again the same old tired Clemson basketball history argument. Give me a break. History does not make the future.
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