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Prayer question
General Boards - Religion & Philosophy
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Replies: 33
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Prayer question


Sep 15, 2022, 11:20 AM
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Everyone prayed for Ella and if course that made no difference. Now sadly she has passed. Now today, I see on the football board that people are taking a day to pray for the Bresee family? What do they think they will get put of that prayer? Seriously, she is gone. Our prayers won't ease their sadness.

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well, either you believe or you don't***


Sep 15, 2022, 11:29 AM
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2024 white level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpgringofhonor-willmo.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up




Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile,
Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile!!!!


Re: well, either you believe or you don't***


Sep 15, 2022, 11:32 AM
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That is true, but it still doesn't change the bottom line that if they prayed or don't pray, it won't change anything for the Bresee family and friends. Like you stated though, either you believe or you don't. I think it helps the person praying, but nobody else.

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well, that is your opinion***


Sep 15, 2022, 12:29 PM
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2024 white level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpgringofhonor-willmo.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up




Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile,
Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile!!!!


Re: well, that is your opinion***


Sep 15, 2022, 12:31 PM
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True. Thats what said. I concur.

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Re: Prayer question


Sep 15, 2022, 11:57 AM
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>Everyone prayed for Ella and if course that made no difference.

I wouldn't be so certain of that. There's no way to prove anything either way. Yes, she did pass, but whether a difference was made in her eternal life, or the well-being of her family, is impossible to say I think.

Prayer is another HUGE topic. At a minimum it's an attempt to interface with God, but what one prays for can be all over the map. One could pray for extended mortal life, or an enhanced afterlife, or for the sense of loss of the family to be minimized. It could be for anything.

In a lot of Eastern religions prayer is not for earthly impact, but for divine understanding...simply an attempt to better understand that which cannot be fully understood.


There does seem to be a logical issue though that if you believe in God's plan, whatever that plan is, prayer is an appeal to get God to alter that plan. That is, if you believe God has a date for everyone to die, and you ask for more earthly life for that person, you are in effect asking God to change his plans for your purposes.

Depending on your personal relationship with God, some may be fine with that, or not. It could be pray to "help me accept your plan", while others may pray to "change your plan for me."

It's a very complex topic.

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Re: Prayer question


Sep 15, 2022, 12:08 PM
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“There does seem to be a logical issue though that if you believe in God's plan, whatever that plan is, prayer is an appeal to get God to alter that plan. That is, if you believe God has a date for everyone to die, and you ask for more earthly life for that person, you are in effect asking God to change his plans for your purposes.”

This.

God has supposedly seen everything in human history play out. Why would you pray and ask for anything? It’s already been determined.

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Re: Prayer question


Sep 15, 2022, 12:25 PM
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Well, the idea of predestination is just that. An idea. Among many ideas. In fact, there are several examples in the Bible where God changes his mind, or is convinced to change his mind, or is talked down from a severe response.

One of the more famous is the "haggling" over good people in Sodom. "If I can find just 5 good souls...


Another is here:

Jonah 3:10 "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened."


and here:

2 Kings 20: "4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him: 5 “Go back and tell Hezekiah, the ruler of my people, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the Lord. 6 I will add fifteen years to your life."


And there's probably a half dozen more examples. Those just came off the top of my head.


One could just as easily find examples of God's intransigence. Here's Samuel's opinion on the matter:

27 As Samuel turned to leave, Saul caught hold of the hem of his robe, and it tore. 28 Samuel said to him, “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to one of your neighbors—to one better than you. 29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”


So again, as many opinions on the matter as there are people.

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I would think any and all prayers would be helpful for them.


Sep 15, 2022, 12:01 PM
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I've taken good and bad from religious communities(grew up/still am Methodist), but prayer, to me, can be one of the more positive fundamentals of faith. Not just posting Ts and Ps, that seems silly to me, but the knowledge that thousands of people are out there that want to grieve with you, share that pain or take some of that burden (even though they can't), empathize with you, celebrate the beautiful life your child and sibling...all this can be a comforting feeling to those who are suffering through the absolute worst thing imaginable. I can't take your pain, but I can be with you in it is a delicate and powerful human connection that doesn't necessarily have to manifest itself through faithful prayer (it just happens to be the vehicle we use); if those who are hurting just know we are there.

I slag on scripture boxing Christians all the time in here because I don't think they'd know Jesus if he walked up and smacked them on the fanny. I've had more than enough of that kind of religion in my life time. But I maintain that prayer for others in need is a tangible offering of love for your fellow man and Jesus would love the heck out of it. And if it helps the Bresee family, the least little bit, knowing that thousands are thinking about their little girl and are willing to be in the moment with them, then you can say prayer mattered.

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I've been slapped on the fanny many times by God.


Sep 15, 2022, 12:12 PM
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And it ain't uncommon for Him to let life slap me in the face every now and then. That's how you know you aren't a #######.

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Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us.


Sep 15, 2022, 12:08 PM
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A dear friend told me of a precious young girl such as Ella who had cancer. Wayne, who went to church with this girl, was a dear and humble child of God who trusted and cried to God on behalf of this young lady.

He said he got a feeling of peace when God let him know that He was in control. I have felt that peace many times in my life, knowing that God never sleeps and His thoughts to us are what we can only describe as infinite.

Like Ella, that girl died. When Wayne hear of it he went straight to God saying, 'You said you would deliver her.' To which God replied, 'I did, she is delivered to the uttermost.' He was astounded to know that God's plans for that child did not include what he wanted for her.

Knowing that they are delivered is perhaps never as consoling as it should be. We close each prayer with 'Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.' How can we expect to pray to God and not wipe out half our prayers by closing them with that statement of confidence that His will is better for us that our own?

Prayer, I've learned, is to align us with God's will by preparing us for it. Prayer is not to align God to our will. One thing is certain about prayer, the results of praying for an enemy is that you will learn to love them. Otherwise it's impossible to love an enemy because it is unnatural. It is also unnatural for a carnal mind to conceive but it is not for us, for Christians are those born of God's Spirit.

Prayer does make a difference, the difference is within the heart of the one praying. It will change you, change your life and change the lives of those around you for in it grows faith, confidence of God through thick and thin. What greater purpose could prayer have?

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Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us.


Sep 15, 2022, 12:12 PM
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If death is the ultimate deliverance for a Christian, why not just pray for that?

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I do...


Sep 15, 2022, 12:13 PM
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but I'm not trying to get up a bunch of people and make the trip today.

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Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us.


Sep 15, 2022, 12:16 PM [ in reply to Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us. ]
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Also, according to your religion if this girl had heard the Gospel but didn’t accept she’s in hell right now….

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Be nice. If you can’t do that be respectful.***


Sep 15, 2022, 12:22 PM
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Re: Be nice. If you can’t do that be respectful.***


Sep 15, 2022, 12:34 PM
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That’s a fact that they believe that.

Why should anyone respect that belief that everybody who doesn’t believe what I believe gets to burn for eternity?

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Not a fact at all, not even close.


Sep 15, 2022, 1:05 PM
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We’re done on this issue.

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Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us.


Sep 15, 2022, 12:33 PM [ in reply to Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us. ]
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I definitely dont believe that nonsense.

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Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us.


Sep 15, 2022, 2:16 PM
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You will.

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Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us.


Sep 15, 2022, 7:58 PM
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Lol....ok. I am terrified.

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Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us.


Sep 16, 2022, 8:10 AM [ in reply to Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us. ]
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Is that what you’re gonna say to god when you get to heaven?

Those ####### believe in you now don’t they?

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Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us.


Sep 16, 2022, 8:18 AM
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Do you think we will also meet the suicide bombers with their virgins when we get up there? Actually when you get up there. I will be in hell. You will be there with Jeffrey Dahmer who took Jesus as his personal savior before he was murdered on Death Row. I will be in hell with Gandhi.

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The only way I'm going to be thinking about you when...


Sep 16, 2022, 10:45 AM [ in reply to Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us. ]
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I get to heaven is if God asked me to testify when you're being judged. Knowing that The Judge at that hearing will be able to read my heart do you think there is any chance I am not going to be honest about our conversations here and now?

I don't want you to be surprised on that day. You're going to look into the eyes of the Almighty and you're not going to be able to deceive Him. You're not going to be able to rationalize this all away by claiming Christians are so varied in what they believe you just couldn't see the truth and you're not going to use me as an excuse because I'm bound to tell the truth both about how I've failed to love you as I should have and perhaps a portion of your obstinate attitude bears on me.

I don't think I'm going to be able to call in a sick day and I'm not going to be able to schedule a vacation that week either.

I just want you to be honest if you're called to my trial. You can tell Him I'm an obstinate old fool who you used to entertain yourself over and over again day after day, but if you say I didn't love you He will know you're lying cause I called you out to Him everyday.

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Re: The only way I'm going to be thinking about you when...


Sep 16, 2022, 11:20 AM
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Logically speaking, how could anyone be happy in heaven knowing so many people are not there and are suffering?

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Pardon my honesty...


Sep 16, 2022, 12:18 PM
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but your logic is flawed. There are some among us who, frankly, want to repeat Satan's sin and be their own god. You sit, constantly, in judge of God and assume His position on that throne in your heart which He created, you usurped, He then died to justify His place on that throne and you judged Him unworthy and have expelled Him from your heart.

That, in my opinion, is the most illogical action(s), driven by illogical attitudes and precepts, a man can take.

The suffering is going to be from the absence of God. So I ask, if you find God so offensive in His judgement why would you claim it's His fault that you will spend eternity without Him?

Don't let yourself get distracted and change the subject to another form of impeachment on the Divine Character of The Almighty. Just answer...

If you don't want Him now, what makes you think you will suffer His absence in the life after life? Say so, be a man and answer the question. I never disrespect you buy changing the subject. Just answer the question, why do you think it will be miserable to be absent from God?

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Re: Pardon my honesty...


Sep 16, 2022, 1:23 PM
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I don’t think believing in the god of the Bible is a logical position to take based on what we see and know about the world we live in. So a world without him to me would be exactly what we live in now.

In order for me to believe in this god, I have to set aside the intuition that he supposedly gave me.

Maybe there is something outside of this world. I would say it’s more likely than not. I don’t think the Christian worldview has it right.

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Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us.


Sep 15, 2022, 12:38 PM [ in reply to Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us. ]
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Without going into the "History or Hell", just yet, I think that a large percentage of mainstream Christians would consider such as hell as "separation from God, because you didn't accept him, vs. a punitive place. That is, a "missed opportunity" vs. an active punishment.


I won't speak for individuals, but there have been a ton of concepts of hell, from the burning trash pits outside of Jerusalem to Dante's 9 levels, and all sorts of stuff in between.



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I will stick with the word that Jesus speaks on the matter


Sep 16, 2022, 7:42 AM
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..."There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" ...and, "where their worm does not die and the fire is never quenched."

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John 3:16; 14:1-6


It was created, not for man but for Satan who...


Sep 16, 2022, 12:30 PM [ in reply to Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us. ]
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decided to be his own god. Or rather to follow his will and not the will of The Almighty, the One God. It provides for and establishes an existence in which there is only one will, the will of God, which is the exact and only definition of a perfect place of and where everything will be perfect and we can exist in that perfection.

It's exactly what the Borg sought until Janeway got to them.



2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpgringofhonor-clemsontiger1988-110.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

You know a lot of stuff.


Sep 15, 2022, 12:41 PM [ in reply to Re: Those are good questions and perhaps common to all of us. ]
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I know you understand that Jesus died for you and sits at God's right hand right now pleading your case to Him. You sure would enjoy life a lot more if you just admitted that He loves you.

That's a big deal, to be so loved by the Almighty God who created this world that He took on the flesh of man and died just for us, TBD. He loves you, I love you and neither the bitterness in your heart nor the biting words are going to change us. He does not change and the love, both His and ours, never diminishes nor fades away. He does not love us for how we behave or who we are but because we belong to Him.

Nothing you do or say will change His love for you and even though you try to be hard to love, He and I will never unlove you.

I pray for you every night, maybe missing it once in a blue moon. I believe there are those in your family who pray for you and the chance they will quit praying for you is zero. So you're in a pickle of sorts. You're miserable and occasionally display it without reluctance or embarrassment.

It would be so much easier on you to surrender to Him, let Him heal your heart. Then , and only then will you would have real joy; not that temporary stuff you stick in that void knowing that it won't last.

Get it over with, get right with God.

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I always take it as simply saying "I will grieve for them"


Sep 15, 2022, 5:43 PM
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Most of what we say and do around death is to help those living with the consequence of death. I think there's beauty in that.

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Since there is no consolation for loving a loved one...


Sep 15, 2022, 6:25 PM
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agreeing to grieve is all we can do. When someone is troubled often all we can do is feel their sorrow. It humbles us to be so unable to help, especially to help those we love.

Your comment was precise and profoundly accurate.

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Re: I always take it as simply saying "I will grieve for them"


Sep 16, 2022, 1:26 PM [ in reply to I always take it as simply saying "I will grieve for them" ]
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That's what I believe as well.

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Re: Prayer question


Sep 18, 2022, 2:03 AM
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For the outside looking in, prayer is about getting what you want. For those that are called to prayer, it is about communion with God.

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Replies: 33
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General Boards - Religion & Philosophy
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