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This is not democracy
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Replies: 24  

This is not democracy

[4]
Oct 17, 2021, 12:21 PM
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I loathe and despise gerrymandering, regardless of which party's doing it. Elected officials should never, ever be allowed to choose their own voters.

An Illinois map where Dems could control 15 of 17 seats?

Stop. This. Crap. Every congressional district across the US of A should be drawn up by an independent commission using the same software. Period.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/17/illinois-democrats-redistricting-map-516135


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Re: This is not democracy


Oct 17, 2021, 12:34 PM
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true, its a republic

illinois has the means to make the changes they desire

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Re: This is not democracy


Oct 17, 2021, 12:58 PM
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You really do not understand what the word "republic" means, sorry.

Gerrymandering means the representatives are choosing who votes for them, instead of the other way around. That is neither a "Republic" nor a "democracy", which are basically the same thing.

Also, to Obed, that's why you use the software and the independent commission just pretty much signs off on it.

The software draws maps without any political considerations.

http://autoredistrict.org/


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Re: This is not democracy

[1]
Oct 17, 2021, 1:56 PM
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Who creates the software?

You can have software designed to say what YOU want it to say.

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Re: This is not democracy


Oct 17, 2021, 11:52 PM
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Good God, I'm in the middle of Idiocracy.

They show you what the data fields are. It's just freaking census data, and then you enter the map data, and it divvies everything up into exactly equal shares. You know, how actual democracy - or a Republic! - should work.

This is not that hard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMHfBobgLSI

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Re: This is not democracy


Oct 18, 2021, 8:47 AM
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Good God, I'm in the middle of naivety.

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Re: This is not democracy


Oct 18, 2021, 8:56 AM
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The software is open-source, and not terribly complicated. Any reasonably intelligent person can go through it and figure out how they're doing it, and how stuff is weighted. You just enter the data and it does not matter what state...it can be California, Vermont, or the fictional land of Shangri-La, it's going to do the divvy-up it exactly the same just based on the data entered. It's as simple as using a hand calculator.

Both sides have reps there at the table. The census data and the map data are the only variables.

It. Isn't. Hard.

And you're acting like a system that allows for mutual distrust and complete transparency is impossible. Humans have been doing forms of Trust But Verify since as far back as rulers put wax seals on their letters to ensure everybody knew the person who wrote it was actually them, and probably further back than that.

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Re: This is not democracy


Oct 18, 2021, 8:58 AM
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I agree. It isn't hard.

But, I'm not naive enough to believe ANYONE gives up power. And I'm not naive enough to believe no one figures out how to game it.

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Re: This is not democracy


Oct 18, 2021, 9:35 AM
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Well, some dudes sitting around a table in Philly in 1787 managed it...and set up a system whereby people did indeed surrender some power to gain a guaranteed share of the pie, and set up a form of representational government. You might have heard of it; it's been our system of government for 200+ years.

It's called "democracy". (Or a "democratic republic", for the folks who skipped civics class.)

The modern-day nihilists who are big on post-truth and the intrinsic badness of all people who are trying so very hard to convince everybody this is impossible (and doing their best to torch the whole works) seriously need to remember what country they're freaking living in. It's enraging...because, you know, we actually have been doing this "democracy" thing for more than two centuries now.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/white-papers/the-constitutional-convention-of-1787-a-revolution-in-government


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Re: This is not democracy


Oct 18, 2021, 9:55 AM
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Don't talk down to me.


I know all about it, just think in 2021, that ship has sailed. It isn't 1787.

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Re: This is not democracy


Oct 18, 2021, 12:12 PM
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What were people capable of in 1787 that we aren't again? They rolled into Philly on horses and carriages, and wrote the Constitution on parchment paper. Some of them even owned slaves.

The Founding Fathers, from a modern perspective, were hardly the most enlightened humans the world has ever seen, but they put their heads together and thrashed out something amazing. And it in no way solved all their problems but it was something that worked.

How is today any different than then?

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Lol. People create the software. It’s not sent down from

[1]
Oct 17, 2021, 4:42 PM
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The heavens. You aren’t going to get pure independent commission, period. Bias will enter the process because it’s too important for those people in power for it not to. It’s a nice idea on paper only.

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This may be the dumbest argument ever, yet I see it over

[3]
Oct 17, 2021, 12:59 PM
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and over and over, that we are a republic, not a democracy. It's not a clever "gotcha". Once and for all, we are both. A republic IS a form of democracy. When people say we are a democracy in the U.S., FOR GOD'S HOLY SAKE, they are not suggesting that we are a pure democracy whereby every citizen votes directly on every issue. They are using the word in the general sense, whereby the power is with the people who have a voice through the vote, rather than all decisions being made by a dictator.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: This may be the dumbest argument ever, yet I see it over


Oct 17, 2021, 1:07 PM
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sorry, you retain states rights in a republic, democracy is mob rule

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Re: This may be the dumbest argument ever, yet I see it over

[1]
Oct 17, 2021, 1:24 PM
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A "republic of states" just means that there is a state-level government between the local government and the Federal one.

They do not get carte blanche fiat to do whatever they want in complete disregard for the principles of democracy.

Otherwise a state of a million people could in theory assign each family member as a representative, with their voting pool consisting of...themselves. And the remaing, say, 999,983 voters in the state could be assigned a single rep to share between them.

Does that sound like a "republic" to you? No? But that's basically what you're doing when you gerrymander; you're finding a way to make sure you're not accountable to actual voters, and disenfranchising people who you don't think will vote for you...precisely because you don't think they'll vote for you. You're making sure their votes never actually matter.

That kind of misses the whole point of this "democracy" thing. Or a "republic", for that matter.

If you think you can hold power indefinitely that way, try it. And viva la revolution, 'cause it's gonna be on.

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Wrong. In a direct or pure democracy, it's pretty


Oct 17, 2021, 2:16 PM
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much mob rule. But we are talking about democracy in general terms here, which simply means the power lies with the people who get a vote, which includes a representative republic. A republic IS a form of democracy.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


It’s not, but like any watered down definition that


Oct 17, 2021, 4:43 PM
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Gets diluted by misuse, it’s probably getting close to being officially redefined.

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In this case, "democracy" is not misused or based on a


Oct 17, 2021, 6:51 PM
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watered down definition, to be clear.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Can we all agree the republic part of our "democracy" is


Oct 17, 2021, 4:59 PM
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what's broken?

We are technically a "democratic republic". A republic is a STRUCTURE of government. A democracy is a means of voting for leadership. You can have a communist "republic" (USSR, etc.) or a democratic one, the US. But a republic, the STRUCTURE of one, affords flexibility to placate the masses where a centralized rule would lead to a dissolution of the nation.

Things like our federal income tax, our 14th amendment, and equal protection, are direct assaults on the republic part of our nation's founding. They are the mechanisms used to seed discontent.

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Tough times create strong men.
Strong men create easy times.
Easy times create weak men.
Weak men create tough times.


Someone needs to go back to civics class.***


Oct 18, 2021, 7:57 AM
Reply



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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Re: This may be the dumbest argument ever, yet I see it over


Oct 17, 2021, 1:10 PM
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also, look for democracy in the definition of republic yaking tiger lol

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/republic


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You still fail to understand ...

[2]
Oct 17, 2021, 1:32 PM
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy


From the same dictionary you quote:

Essential Meaning of democracy
1: a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting
The nation has chosen democracy over monarchy.


Just like we do in the U.S.A.

AND:

Frequently Asked Questions About democracy
Is the United States a democracy or a republic?
The United States is both a democracy and a republic. Democracies and republics are both forms of government in which supreme power resides in the citizens. The word republic refers specifically to a government in which those citizens elect representatives who govern according to the law. The word democracy can refer to this same kind of representational government, or it can refer instead to what is also called a direct democracy, in which the citizens themselves participate in the act of governing directly.


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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


One problem.

[4]
Oct 17, 2021, 12:34 PM
Reply

A true “independent commission” is about as likely to happen as world peace.

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Re: This is not democracy


Oct 17, 2021, 2:44 PM
Reply

what would you call your UNELECTED commission?



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Yeah - can you imagine what the US would look like if the

[1]
Oct 18, 2021, 8:25 AM
Reply

party in power at a particular time was allowed to redraw state lines? Over the top comparison, I know, but that's basically what gerrymandering is at a state's level.

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