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Freshman [-99]
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This ain’t rocket science, folks!
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Feb 27, 2023, 4:23 PM
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Brad Brownell and his team have ###### losses to South Carolina, Loyola, BC, and Louisville. There is absolutely no excuse for losing those basketball games. Those are all bad teams. Three of them are very, very bad!
The thing I love about sports is meritocracy. It’s not a debate. It’s not opinion. You decide on the field of play who is best. In the case of basketball you decide on the court. If you lose to four really bad teams, then you’re not a good team. It’s really that simple. Really good teams don’t lose to really bad teams. Every now and then it happens. But not four times in one season. If it happens four times in one season either you’re not a good team or you not well coached. Either way the buck stops with the head coach, which is Brad Brownell!
I’m sorry, but this is the worst year in ACC basketball history. That’s why his team has won as many conference games as they have. Not because he’s a good coach or this is a good team.
What exactly do people think he’s going to accomplish in season 14 or 15 that he hasn’t already?
Has there ever been a coach that suddenly after 13 years turns a program around and becomes consistently successful for an extended period of time?
Is there one? I don’t know of one. If it has happened it’s exceedingly rare. Therefore, there’s no rationalization for keeping Brad Brownell as our coach. If he has to get into the NCAA tournament by the skin of his teeth after 13 seasons when the conference is at an all time low he doesn’t deserve to continue getting $3 million per year. At this point the man is ripping Clemson off! Like taxation, Brad Brownell’s salary is theft! The Clemson AD and admin are suckers to keep paying him!
If the man has any integrity he will submit his resignation immediately following the NCAA selection show if Clemson is not invited.
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All-TigerNet [13889]
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CBB is our best basketball coach ever
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Feb 27, 2023, 4:25 PM
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you can't just go firing a legacy.
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Freshman [-99]
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Surely this is sarcasm.
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Feb 27, 2023, 5:40 PM
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Because he is not our best basketball coach ever. Not even close.
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All-In [44048]
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Having the most wins in program history
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Feb 27, 2023, 5:48 PM
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as well as the most NCAA Tournament wins in program history, the best ACC winning percentage in program history, and the only coach to win in Chapel Hill suggests that he is our best coach in program history.
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CU Medallion [57123]
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LOL.
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Feb 27, 2023, 5:54 PM
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You must love the smell of your own farts
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Oculus Spirit [82058]
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Re: LOL.
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Feb 28, 2023, 11:45 AM
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Freshman [-99]
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That looks nice until you factor in the quality of the schedule
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Feb 27, 2023, 6:23 PM
[ in reply to Having the most wins in program history ] |
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The fact that UNC has been not very good the last few years. The fact that the ACC has been weak. The last 3 to 5 years we’ve seen the weakest ACC ever! Brownell has coaching in a weak and watered down ACC.
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All-Pro [672]
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Re: That looks nice until you factor in the quality of the schedule
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Feb 27, 2023, 8:24 PM
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Starting in 2016 UNC has finished as follows:
2016: runner up
2017: champ
2018: rd of 32
2019: rd of 16
Covid
2021: rd of 64
2022: runner up
Not too bad.
I would agree that brownell is the most successful coach in Clemson men’s basketball history, maybe not the greatest. But I also think he has reached his ceiling and would be happy to see a new brand of basketball in LJ. It’s possible to believe both, that is unless you are a TNet user.
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Freshman [-41]
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Re: That looks nice until you factor in the quality of the schedule
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Feb 27, 2023, 8:30 PM
[ in reply to That looks nice until you factor in the quality of the schedule ] |
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The fact you said UNC has not been a very good team. You must’ve forgotten they were in the natty last year and won the title in 2017 tells me everything I need to know. You’re an uneducated little fella
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All-TigerNet [10904]
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All-In [30831]
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All-In [38106]
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Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks!
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Feb 27, 2023, 4:33 PM
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You're right... it ain't rocket science, but at the same time it is no easy decision for Neff. Who knows, CBB may finally be finding his footing after 13 years. I am more inclined to think many of these wins are because the ACC is weak this year.
All I want is for Neff to give this a proper evaluation and not just give an extension because he had a good year. If that happens, we may just be in for another 5 years of mediocre teams. But if he sees real growth and thinks it is sustainable, I say we keep him for another year to make sure.
It's a tough decision for him.
Go Tigers!!!
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Freshman [-99]
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Our record this year is absolutely a reflection of the schedule
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Feb 27, 2023, 5:43 PM
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And the strength of the ACC. Rather, the lack there of! Because if this was actually a good basketball team, it wouldn’t have those bad loses.
And it’s not a hard decision. The man has had 13 years. That’s a lot longer than we gave Tommy Bowden and it’s a heck of a lot longer than we gave Monte.
Not to mention the fact that he was basically given an ultimatum following last season. NCAA tournament or bust!
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110%er [7160]
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who do you think Clemson basketball is exactly?
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Feb 27, 2023, 4:34 PM
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You talk like you were expecting Clemson to be ACC champs this year or something. Clemson's history in BBall is that we have like 1 good year every 10 years. Its always been that way. This year its actually a competitive team and you act like we're dog crap. Yes Duke and UNC aren't good but just relax they'll be back and you'll be happy again with our mid pack standing.
Is Brownell the next Coach K...no. WE all know that. But did I expect him to be top 4 in the ACC this year... no. Expected mid pack. The horse has been beaten my friend. He won't be fired this year. He just won't. Get over it. Once he has a year where he finishes in the latter half then he'll probably be let go. But won't be this year. Just quit watching if it causes so much anguish.
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CU Medallion [58415]
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Sounds like the key is to have extremely low expectations,
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Feb 27, 2023, 4:47 PM
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the lower the better. That way, if we are expected to finish 11th, but we finish say, 7th or higher, we can claim success and Brownell a good coach that we just can't let get away. Then when you realize that we have the worst basketball history in the ACC, those 4th place finishes seem downright epic. So let's focus on how bad we have traditionally been, and how little we and others expect from Clemson basketball, and dang near every season can be "good" or better. That way too, Brownell will always have a chance, even if it's 27 years down the road of actually winning the ACC and making the final four, and JK and others can scream "I told you so!", so we really shouldn't take that possibility away from him.
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Legend [17289]
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… have extremely low expectations. Kind of describes my golf game unfortunately.***
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Feb 27, 2023, 4:50 PM
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CU Medallion [58415]
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Mine too!***
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Feb 27, 2023, 5:15 PM
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110%er [7992]
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Re: Sounds like the key is to have extremely low expectations,
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Feb 27, 2023, 5:38 PM
[ in reply to Sounds like the key is to have extremely low expectations, ] |
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Actually your expectations should match your effort and investment. Basketball has always been an afterthought at Clemson by both fans and our AD
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Freshman [-99]
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True. But
Feb 27, 2023, 6:27 PM
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Brownell has had better facilities and more support than any basketball coach in Clemson history. He has also been benefited from a watered down conference because of expansion and programs like Duke and North Carolina regrouping after losing legendary coaches. This year is the weakest in ACC history.
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CU Medallion [58415]
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My expectations are that Clemson would do everything they
Feb 27, 2023, 6:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: Sounds like the key is to have extremely low expectations, ] |
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can to have a highly competitive basketball program that makes the NCAA tournament at least half of the time, and for changes to be made when we go 4 or 5 straight years without a single tournament appearance.
Or, I can lower my expectations and be happy with long-term mediocrity.
I choose keeping expectations higher and dealing with the frustration.
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Freshman [-99]
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In a watered down ACC
Feb 27, 2023, 5:47 PM
[ in reply to who do you think Clemson basketball is exactly? ] |
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And expanded NCAA tournament the expectation should be to make the tournament almost every year. There’s no excuse for Clemson to not be making the NCAA tournament almost every year. We used to go more often before the tournament was expanded. We used to go more often before the ACC was expanded. These things should be making it easier, not harder!
The only reason Clemson’s basketball program sucks is because it’s not supported by the administration. Every sport this administration gets behind has a high level of success. We have simply never committed to being good in basketball. If they don’t want to spend money on basketball they need to come out and say that. They need to set expectations for the fanbase.
And in case you weren’t paying attention, Graham Neff basically said after last season that it’s the NCAA tournament or the chopping block for Brownell.
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CU Guru [1046]
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Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks!
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Feb 27, 2023, 4:59 PM
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You asked a question in paragraph regarding a coach achieving success after a number of years. I call your attention to Frank Beamer at Va Tech football. After a long slow start he go them playing well on the national stage. After he left Va Tech has gone back to what they were. Just saying.
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All-TigerNet [13889]
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Exactly, we need to lock CBB in for at least 10 more years
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Feb 27, 2023, 5:36 PM
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so some other school can't ###### him away.
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Legend [16908]
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Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks!
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Feb 27, 2023, 5:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks! ] |
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Prior to Frank Beamer, VT had been to six total bowls in their history and had won one. In season 7 he turned a sad sack of a program into a 9 game winner and their 2 bowl victory ever. He definitely elevated them even further in the middle of his tenure. But in 13 seasons, Brownell has not even reached a plateau equivalent to the level he inherited. I don’t think it would be comparable.
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Freshman [-99]
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That’s actually a load of crap!
Feb 27, 2023, 6:36 PM
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Look at my post directly below
Dooley was a decent coach and Virginia Tech was a decent program before Frank Beamer. The reason they had not been to many bowl games is because it was a different era in college football. Bill Dooley had a team that went 9-2 that was not invited to a bowl game. Because there weren’t many bowl games back then and most of them had conference tie-ins with at large invites based on fan following. At that time Virginia Tech did not have a fanbase that traveled well. In today’s environment Bill Dooley would’ve gone to a bowl game the last seven or eight years he was at Virginia Tech. Frank Beamer, however, would’ve missed a bowl game four of his first six years.
Virginia Tech was roughly 7-4 on average the seven years before Frank Beamer.
Frank Beamer didn’t do crap for six years despite taking over a decent program. Beamer is the one that screwed it up. They let him hang around long enough to correct the mess he created.
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Legend [16908]
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Re: That’s actually a load of crap!
Feb 27, 2023, 9:45 PM
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They finished a season ranked twice in their entire history. Once was under Dooley. But starting in year 7, Beamer had them finish ranked 19 out of 21 seasons. I’m not sure why you want to lash out at someone who was validating your op. If you think Dooley doesn’t get his due in setting the table for Beamer, that’s fine. But VT was not regarded as a significant program nationally until Beamer. Dooley was also the athletic director and oversaw serious infractions in their football and basketball program. At one point he had 114 scholarship players on his roster. So I’m not sure he’s really the guy you want to go to bat for.
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Legend [16136]
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That's TOTAL BS...He didn't inherit a Sweet 16 team and he
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Feb 28, 2023, 2:58 AM
[ in reply to Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks! ] |
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made it to the Sweet 16 so your statement is factually incorrect
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Legend [16908]
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Re: That's TOTAL BS...He didn't inherit a Sweet 16 team and he
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Feb 28, 2023, 6:09 AM
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My statement is factually correct because all the facts I reference are true. It is a subjective part of my post you appear to object to. Unfortuant, “plateau” (the word I deliberately used) is not the same as a peak. As you can see from the graph in my avatar,
our Sweet 16 season under Brownell was clearly a peak. Thanks for playing and keeping it civil though.
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Freshman [-99]
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BS!!!
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Feb 27, 2023, 6:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks! ] |
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First, I was clearly talking about basketball. Not football! You know that, but you were trying to be a smart ###.
Second, you’re actually factually wrong about Virginia Tech.
Virginia Tech was historically better at football than Clemson basketball before Frank Beamer.
Bill Dooleys final years at Virginia Tech were as follows:
8-3
7-4
7-4
9-2
8-3
6-5
9-2
7.71-3.29 per season almost 8-4
54-23. Total
70.13 winning percentage
Frank Beamer, however, did the following:
2-9
3-8
6-4-1
6-5
5-6
2-8-1
8-3
8-3
9-2
10-1
It is a myth, a media created myth, that Frank Beamer took over a terrible program and resurrected it. In fact, he took a pretty good program and turned it into crap for six years. For whatever reason the Virginia Tech administration allowed him to hang around to turn around the mess that he created. And it didn’t take 13 years! They were winning 8+ games per year his seventh season.
If you’re prepared to tell me that it’s harder to turn around a basketball program than a football program I’ve got some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you. Because it is a hell of a lot easier to turn around a basketball program than a football program!
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Orange Blooded [3961]
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Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks!
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Feb 27, 2023, 5:02 PM
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While I agree that it’s time to move on from BB. He’s taken us as far as he could. But if he makes the tournament Neff won’t fire him.
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All-In [44048]
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Those losses aren’t as awful as you say, when viewed in context.
Feb 27, 2023, 5:30 PM
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The South Carolina loss was the second game of the season. Both teams were dealing with new players, and we had PJ returning from injury in a game I believe he made it hard for our other players since they weren’t used to playing with him. Plus, it was a home game for SC in a very loud environment.
The loss to Loyola Chicago was in Atlanta in an arena with very few fans. Their fans outnumbered ours and were louder. Those games are tough.
BC is a good team with Post. He played against us, but has missed a bunch of games this year. BC just beat Virginia, so they aren’t a pushover at all.
Louisville has been bad this year, but they’ve been playing a lot better lately. That was a tough environment where they had 16,000 fans and were loud.
We are better than all of those teams, but each loss is a good example of an inferior team beating a superior team when the environment is in their favor, they play better than usual, and we play worse than usual.
I don’t understand this desire some of you have to continually bash Brownell for “losing games he shouldn’t” and “being inconsistent.” Every college basketball team loses games they shouldn’t and battles inconsistency. It’s okay to wish we had won those games, but for every game we lost like that we typically have at least one or two that we’ve won that we maybe shouldn’t. We tend to forget those when griping.
Basketball isn’t like football. We don’t have a clear talent advantage over most of the teams we play. Rather, we have to play harder and smarter, and our coach them. We’ve done that more often than not this year.
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Freshman [-99]
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LMAO!!!
Feb 27, 2023, 6:45 PM
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You sound like Democrats trying to cover for Joe Biden!
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All-In [40100]
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Hall of Famer [22659]
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Re: Those losses aren’t as awful as you say, when viewed in context.
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Feb 27, 2023, 8:13 PM
[ in reply to Those losses aren’t as awful as you say, when viewed in context. ] |
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You say “ We are better than all of those teams, but each loss is a good example of an inferior team beating a superior team when the environment is in their favor, they play better than usual, and we play worse than usual.” And then you say “ We don’t have a clear talent advantage over most of the teams we play. “
Based on your comment, it sounds like we had a talent advantage over those 3 teams and yet lost to them. When the football team does that you call it underachieving and blame the coaches. But yet this isn’t the same?????
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All-In [44048]
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Yes, we definitely underachieved in those losses.
Feb 27, 2023, 9:12 PM
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We should have won in my opinion.
But on the season overall, we have overachieved based on preseason predictions, talent level relative to the rest of the ACC, investment in the program relative to the ACC, etc.
Football has underachieved two years in a row based on preseason expectations, talent level relative to the teams we play, and investment in the program relative to the other teams.
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Hall of Famer [22659]
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Re: Yes, we definitely underachieved in those losses.
Feb 28, 2023, 8:57 AM
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So this year the basketball overachieved. The football team has underachieved for the last two years. What has the basketball team done the last 12 years prior to this one? You pick and choose what data supports your narrative.
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All-In [44048]
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Yes, we definitely underachieved in those losses.
Feb 27, 2023, 9:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: Those losses aren’t as awful as you say, when viewed in context. ] |
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We should have won in my opinion.
But on the season overall, we have overachieved based on preseason predictions, talent level relative to the rest of the ACC, investment in the program relative to the ACC, etc.
Football has underachieved two years in a row based on preseason expectations, talent level relative to the teams we play, and investment in the program relative to the other teams.
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110%er [8537]
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Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks!
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Feb 27, 2023, 5:49 PM
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You play the teams on the schedule. One more win this week and Brownell likely finishes 2nd in Coach of the Year voting and if we somehow win both, it will be a close vote with Jeff Capel. Alabama is ranked #2 and lost to Oklahoma by 24 and the Sooners are last in the Big 12. Teams play bad, they lose and that's not rocket science.
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Legend [16908]
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Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks!
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Feb 27, 2023, 6:02 PM
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Seriously? Oklahoma are a game below .500 and 65th in NET and 89th in RPI. Not remotely comparable to our losses to teams ranked 238/211, 270/272, 165/157, and 308/303. Look again at those numbers. We lost to 4 teams that are that bad. It isn’t “just basketball”. It’s a coach who routinely fails to have his team mentally ready and cannot make necessary in game adjustments when it becomes abundantly clear they aren’t in the right headspace. He loses more game to sub-200 RPI teams than his predecessors at Clemson and his peers in coaching in the ACC. That is just Bradsketball.
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All-In [31310]
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Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks!
Feb 27, 2023, 6:30 PM
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He has done as much as he can do. He is an average coach. Stats seem to be skewed in favor of a posters position.
He has been here for 10 plus years so I’m guessing his numbers would be higher. At least we would hope so. We are playing more ACC games per season as well and with what has become of the ACC I’m not sure that stat is a good measuring stick. If Duke and NC were what they normally are go ahead and bump everyone down 1-2 more spots.
Most of the teams in the conference now would get pummeled by the squads I grew up watching in conference.
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Legend [16935]
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MVP [501]
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Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks!
Feb 27, 2023, 6:41 PM
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Whoa let's hold on a minute- as far as those bad losses you allude to our best player was coming off foot surgery and trying to get back to his ALL ACC form. We have seen how terrific this team can be when they play well. This Tuesday night's game against UVA is critical to the NCAA tourney selection. If we lose that game then we would probably have to win the ACC tournament to get in.
We have had some great wins and a few bad losses but I definitely think we are one of the top 68 teams in the country and should be in the NCAA tournament even though the ACC lacks elite teams this year.
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Freshman [-99]
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What a load of crap!
Feb 27, 2023, 6:50 PM
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You act like our losses came at one point. They did not. Also, I don’t care if our best player was all the way out for some of those games go look at the net ranking for those teams. There’s some of the worst teams in college basketball. One player nursing an injury is not the reason for that and I think he was only nursing that injury with one of those losses.
My God, you people will go to the ends of the earth to come up with the dumbest, lamest irrational factually incorrect excuses to support a ###### coach.
You people are worse than Joe Biden and Tommy Bowden supporters!
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All-TigerNet [10904]
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You are missing the fact that the top 68 teams don't get in
Feb 27, 2023, 7:37 PM
[ in reply to Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks! ] |
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because there will be 15-18 automatic qualifiers the are nowhere near being a top 68 team. Thus, to get an at-large bid, you have to be in the top 50 or so.
UNCheat is currently ranked 47th in the Net, and they are considered to be on the outside looking in!
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All-TigerNet [10904]
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Posts: 12988
Joined: 8/4/14
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I expect Jeff Capel of Pitt to be ACC coach of the year, but
Feb 27, 2023, 6:45 PM
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Brownell will get some votes. I would guess he finishes 3rd, behind Capel and Larrinaga!
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Freshman [-99]
TigerPulse: 68%
Posts: 3740
Joined: 9/5/20
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Which shows you how stupid sports riders are.
Feb 27, 2023, 6:52 PM
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This is a weak pathetic ACC.
If Brownell can’t make the NCAA tournament this year, he’s never gonna accomplish anything, especially after 13 seasons! Anyone that can’t see that is truly mentally retarded!
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All-In [44048]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
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You don’t think our Sweet 16 a few years ago constitutes accomplishing something?***
Feb 27, 2023, 9:15 PM
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Legend [16058]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 24596
Joined: 5/14/02
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Since when is a season that started 6 years ago "a few"?***
Feb 28, 2023, 9:27 AM
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Orange Blooded [2987]
TigerPulse: 91%
Posts: 2499
Joined: 1/23/10
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Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks!
Feb 27, 2023, 7:46 PM
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Fang i just posted the exact same version of your post in a different thread. Its so dang close I am going to copy/paste my post in this thread. You will agree.
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Orange Blooded [2987]
TigerPulse: 91%
Posts: 2499
Joined: 1/23/10
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Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks!
1
Feb 27, 2023, 7:50 PM
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Have our best ever ACC record, had some horrible non-conference losses! Shows just how bad the ACC has fallen! This is not the conference of the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s.
So this record continues to show CBB's inability to coach a solid team continuously. When you lose to Q4 teams, teams like Loyola, 275th ranked Louisville late in the season, lose to Coots that will be a Q4 team with 1 more loss. We beat a respectable Q1 team like NCST but cant beat a sukky team like BC.
There is no way that this team isn't a tournament team, but the coaching failures against Q4 teams. Yeah, sometimes the team might be off one night, but for the results to happen multiple times this year is totally a coaching fiasco. CBB should have been able to correct the issues by halftime but no changes resulted in losses each time. Nothing about these facts should result in another year of coaching at Clemson. This year 100% shows his ineptness to coach a team through a drought against the bottom teams in America.
While CBB is good guy, good mentor, he is not a D1 P5 coach and should have been fired a few yrs ago. Neff needs to hear that fans are over being mediocre in basketball.
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Orange Blooded [2847]
TigerPulse: 65%
Posts: 2573
Joined: 6/9/00
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You forgot to give CBB credit for the 21 victories
Feb 28, 2023, 8:54 AM
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And a top four finish in the ACC. Even Dabo loses three games a season. See 2021, 2022.
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CU Guru [1998]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2867
Joined: 2/10/02
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Please don't compare Dabo's track record to CBB's. Geez***
Feb 28, 2023, 12:45 PM
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Orange Blooded [2847]
TigerPulse: 65%
Posts: 2573
Joined: 6/9/00
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This ain’t rocket science, folks!
Feb 28, 2023, 8:57 AM
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After this season, CBB is not going anywhere. Unless he is tired of your losers and goes and gets a better job. Unlike any Clemson basketball coach in history, he has built a program. One losing season. Just one. More 20-win seasons than any Clemson basketball coach in history. Don't hate. Appreciate.
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All-In [40100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 18284
Joined: 10/28/15
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You think Brownell is leaving for a better job?
Feb 28, 2023, 11:30 AM
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OK
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Athletic Dir [851]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 515
Joined: 3/24/22
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Re: This ain’t rocket science, folks!
Feb 28, 2023, 12:05 PM
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well said and true
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