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Team Captain [499]
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Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 7:20 PM
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I know that certain certain sects of Christianity believe this and at least decades ago basically all of Christianity believed this. But haven’t followed if Christian theology has evolved and maybe the stance on this issue has changed.
So are all non-Christians to include Hindus, Islamist, Buddist, and all other non-Christian religions plus atheist and the extremely poor African girl born in a hut who will never be exposed to religion going to hell?
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Lot o points [155494]
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You should check the last time
Feb 6, 2022, 7:43 PM
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Someone asked this a few weeks ago. It pops up quarterly on the atheist “gotcha” rotation.
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: You should check the last time
Feb 6, 2022, 7:44 PM
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OK if no one wants to respond with an answer to my question I’ll look that up later.
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CU Guru [1381]
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Re: You should check the last time
Feb 6, 2022, 7:50 PM
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I certainly can’t answer for Christians, but I think it depends on which Christian you ask. Beliefs & Interpretation seem to changes from church to church and person to person
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You should check the last time
Feb 6, 2022, 8:34 PM
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CU Guru [1381]
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Re: You should check the last time
Feb 6, 2022, 9:27 PM
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Pleasure to see you too
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: You should check the last time
Feb 6, 2022, 7:46 PM
[ in reply to You should check the last time ] |
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It's a legitimate question. What is your answer?
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Hall of Famer [24418]
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See below.***
Feb 6, 2022, 7:52 PM
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Hall of Famer [24418]
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Right. One could, for the 1 trillionth time, explain that
Feb 6, 2022, 7:49 PM
[ in reply to You should check the last time ] |
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all people have chosen to spend eternity apart from God. All. And that God was heartbroken about this and paid that consequence Himself. And that all those who thus give themselves back to Him will spend eternity with Him.
And someone will say, "Yeah, well, what about the Muslims". Or, "What about my salt of the earth grandma?"
What "Christianity" has to say about that, 300 years ago or today, is irrelevant. When Jesus came, He didn't ask "Christianity's" permission.
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: Right. One could, for the 1 trillionth time, explain that
Feb 6, 2022, 7:52 PM
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Thanks for your response, and maybe I’m not smart enough to interpret your post. But it’s really a very simple question that you should be able to answer directly. Are all non-Christians going to hell? I don’t understand why you can’t answer this with a yes or no answer.
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Hall of Famer [24418]
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I answered it. It has nothing to do with being Christian or
Feb 6, 2022, 8:00 PM
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non Christian. Christianity is now a religion, and no choice of religion is relevant. What about that was hard to understand?
All people are lost. All. I'm not saying that doesn't need additional explanation - feel free to ask - but that's the simplest place to start of I can think of.
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: I answered it. It has nothing to do with being Christian or
Feb 6, 2022, 8:02 PM
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No I don’t understand I’m very confused. Please explain to me why you can’t answer this question with a yes or no answer?
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Hall of Famer [24418]
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I just said, "All people are lost." You wont start there.
Feb 6, 2022, 8:08 PM
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Playing dumb tends to convince people that that is exactly what you are. Try harder.
You are indeed confused, about your your ability to run a game on people.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: I answered it. It has nothing to do with being Christian or
Feb 6, 2022, 9:40 PM
[ in reply to Re: I answered it. It has nothing to do with being Christian or ] |
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That's what they do. They can't give answers, so they post unclear/incoherent scriptrue or rabble on without really saying anything definite. Then they claim the "answered" your question.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I answered it. It has nothing to do with being Christian or
Feb 6, 2022, 9:46 PM
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: I answered it. It has nothing to do with being Christian or
Feb 6, 2022, 9:52 PM
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He asked a yes or no question and got a tap dance.
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Legend [19865]
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Are you going to stop cheating on your wife?
Feb 6, 2022, 10:41 PM
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Please give a simple yes or no answer.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: Are you going to stop cheating on your wife?
Feb 6, 2022, 11:04 PM
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no
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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Remember Tigerboy98?
Feb 7, 2022, 12:19 PM
[ in reply to Are you going to stop cheating on your wife? ] |
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I think that was the handle, maybe Tboy89 or something close. Tboy was asking a loaded question and I ask him/her when did he/she quit beating his/her wife.
Crump climbed up my rump hard over that. Eventually I concluded Tboy is/was an abused wife and it struck a nerve. He/she and Darerzmvp are on my list. I don't have to write it out so not remembering the spelling isn't important to God.
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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Re: I answered it. It has nothing to do with being Christian or
Feb 7, 2022, 1:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: I answered it. It has nothing to do with being Christian or ] |
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Have you read the parables? They show figures which provide a frame of reference for the simple.
Oh, there's a couple comments just like yours in the Bible too but I won't post them but I will give you reference so that you can read them yourself.
Gospel of John chapter 10 verse 20. Your cheering section was vocal in the days of Christ too.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: I answered it. It has nothing to do with being Christian or
Feb 7, 2022, 7:06 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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Re: I answered it. It has nothing to do with being Christian or
Feb 7, 2022, 7:16 PM
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If you want to hurt God you should believe on Him then worry. I know of nothing that hurt Him more.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: I answered it. It has nothing to do with being Christian or
Feb 7, 2022, 7:25 PM
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I think God would be impressed that I'm inquisitive enough to ask the tough questions rather than to set my beliefs on flimsy evidence and questionable scripture.
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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Ask your tough questions and I will respond...
Feb 7, 2022, 7:32 PM
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the best I can.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: Ask your tough questions and I will respond...
Feb 7, 2022, 7:41 PM
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Just address the OP. Do non Christians get salvation? Scripture says otherwise.
John 14:6
John 8:24
Acts 4:12
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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You know the truth.
Feb 7, 2022, 7:48 PM
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You know no man can say who is and who is not saved but we are sure than those who do not accept the Salvation of God through Jesus The Christ will not spend eternity with The Father and Son.
This question was asked a troll to incite stress here. You asked it knowing the truth. You have no excuse.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: You know the truth.
Feb 7, 2022, 8:37 PM
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Ok then. The nation of Israel is a bunch of people condemned to Hell. So is every living being that lived and died without being taught the Christian religion. That conflicts with God being "loving" and "fair", but I respect your opinion.
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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I don't know about the Children of Israel.
Feb 8, 2022, 8:56 AM
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God signed a different covenant with them. I've read way too much of the Bible to dally between God and anyone else. I can tell you this.
The COI did not establish righteousness by work of the flesh. They asked for God's law so that they could show Him how able they were to please Him. God gave them exactly what they asked for. At times they did a great job, at times they worshiped idles. The Law was so technical that they were forbidden to build altars of brick or anything made by man's hand.
Even as early a Genesis man knew of a coming savior, a Christ who would remove their sins. Prophesies of Christ and pictures of a coming savior were the reasons for books being included in the Bible. The Bible is not a collection of truths, it's about One Truth which is Jesus.
I have no great concern for Israel though I have respect for my elders which I consider the COI to be. God loved them enough to promise Christ would be born to them and so He was. How can I not love them?
I see their journey through the desert as a picture of a Christian's spiritual growth. The similarities are astounding and bring one to an understanding of his plight in wrestling with his flesh. Thereby, do I identify with them though they do not have such sentiment toward me.
Idols, oh my.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 7:50 PM
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If your question is sincere I would suggest reading first the book of John and then the book of Romans. I think you will find the answers to your questions. You will find better answers than anyone here can give.
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 7:56 PM
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Tara dog, yes my question is sincere. Sorry but I’m lazy and I would rather get a more immediate response. Should be a simple answer for you. Are all Non-Christians going to hell? It’s interesting to me at least at this point how no one seems to want to answer this question directly.
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All-TigerNet [12975]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 8:04 PM
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Trolls spend eternity with Birmingham and unfinished.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 8:33 PM
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Hall of Famer [24418]
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No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 6, 2022, 8:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell? ] |
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openly as you like, but when someone demands a 'yes' or 'no' answer to a question that cannot be answered yes or not - because the terms in the question are changeable depending on the purposes of the person doing the asking - that person is almost always trying to make an argument with the question.
What is it you really want to know?
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 6, 2022, 8:10 PM
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I don’t understand why it can’t be answered yes or no. I’ll admit that my knowledge of the Bible is limited. But you havent explain to me why it’s complicated to answer this question yes or no. Surely understand my perspective that you have not fulfilled my curiosity of the question. You have basically said nothing. So let’s start with the poor African born in a hunt and that throughout her entire life will never be exposed to Christianity? Is she going to hell? I just don’t get why you can’t directly answer this question. If you and Tar Dog cannot directly answer this question, that means you really don’t have an answer and you are evading the question.
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Hall of Famer [24418]
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Your example exposes you. The African in a hut question has
Feb 6, 2022, 8:19 PM
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been asked, and answered, a trillion times for 100 years. You didn't think that up. You read it somewhere, and couldn't wait to come start an argument, like you have discovered something new. Besides being racist, it is ignorant of the basic premise. All people are lost. All. Doesn't matter where one was born or to what one has been exposed. All. We start there, or nowhere. Your choice.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 6, 2022, 9:51 PM
[ in reply to Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as ] |
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What you are doing is asking them questions that they can't/dont want to answer because it either exposes them to contradiction or a narrative that doesn't paint the picture of a fair and loving superior being. That's why their answers are pretty much a tap dance routine. Then they get offended and claim your trying to "gotcha" them. It's not your fault that their narrative is full of holes and flaws.
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Rock Defender [53]
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It isn’t if you
Feb 6, 2022, 9:54 PM
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: It isn’t if you
Feb 6, 2022, 10:01 PM
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It was a yes or no question.
"So are all non-Christians to include Hindus, Islamist, Buddist, and all other non-Christian religions plus atheist and the extremely poor African girl born in a hut who will never be exposed to religion going to hell?"
If all non Christians are destined for Hell, then the answer is yes.
If not, then no.
You guys hesitate to say "no" because it conflicts with the the belief that you have to believe in Christ to get salvation. Which brings up the Jewish issue, because many Christians can't stomach the thought of Israel being a nation full of condemned people. So therefore, we get the predicable and laughable tap dance when this question is asked. There is also the issue with how "loving" and "fair" is a superior being who sends people to Hell if they were never exposed to Christianity.
Yeah, I know I'm causing problems because I'm bringing up legitimate and pragmatic points.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: It isn’t if you
Feb 7, 2022, 1:06 AM
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: It isn’t if you
Feb 7, 2022, 6:53 AM
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.
Message was edited by: BirminghamTiger®
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: It isn’t if you
Feb 7, 2022, 6:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: It isn’t if you ] |
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FINALLY, your 2nd paragraph I can agree with. Was that so hard? It's nice to see that a little pragmatic thinking can back away some from the finger wagging "you must accept Christ or else" narrative. I mean seriously, a superior being would understand human nature and know that we are mostly products of how we born and raised, and would never determine salvation on such a ridiculous and unfair requirement.
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Orange Blooded [3033]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 7, 2022, 7:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as ] |
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The reason they won't answer your question is you're not genuinely searching for an answer. If you were, you wouldn't fishing for it on TNET or Facebook or wherever else you're seeking a confrontation. The reason they can't answer your question is they are not God. The Bible is clear that salvation comes through trust in Christ. I suspect you know what the Bible says about that. That's not what you want. You want a Christian to say that so you can toss questions at them that you know they can't answer. Although their faith tells them who will be saved, they cannot tell you the destiny of any other person any more than you know that person's destiny.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 7, 2022, 7:08 PM
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Then they should just Yes, all non Christians are destined for Hell instead of the tap dance. Of course that puts them in an uncomfortable position when it comes to the fate of the people of Israel, who have been giving Christ the middle finger for almost 2000 years. It's not my fault that they've painted themselves into a corner.
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Orange Blooded [3033]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 7, 2022, 7:11 PM
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Why exactly do you think the "should" answer at all? Because you demand an answer?
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 7, 2022, 7:17 PM
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I'm asking for some clarity. It's obvious that when it comes to Christianity, clarity doesn't exist, which is a shame, especially when it comes to something as important as salvation. I'm fortunate in that I live in the time when the church has been separated from our state, as I'm allowed to ask the tough questions without being tied to a pole and burned alive in the name of "Christianity".
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Orange Blooded [3033]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 7, 2022, 7:54 PM
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Let's not pretend you're seeking "clairity" or answers to anything. You're pretty hostile to Christianity, which is your prerogative. You bring up salvation being important. I'm curious why someone who seems to hold the position you do would think salvation is important.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 7, 2022, 9:46 PM
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Who doesn't want eternal salvation? I would love for you guys to be right and there to be 100% clarity. Trust me, I know how this debate is going to end because I started asking these questions 35 years ago when I was in Sunday school. I've always been disappointed with the deflection, the tap dancing, and the inability for any clarity and answers that are not utterly ridiculous and sound made up. As I said, at some point you have put yourself in the position of a superior being and ask yourself if this is how one would realistically do things.
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Orange Blooded [3033]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 8, 2022, 10:49 AM
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This answer likely won't satisfy you but I live with a faith that tells me there are many, many things I can't answer. And for me, that's okay. The Bible is full of things I can't explain but that doesn't make them wrong. It just means I can't answer them. You may think that's tap dancing or deflection. It's not. It's my truth. What you think of Christianity and the Bible is probably determined by your starting point. For the Christian, who comes to scripture from a presupposition that God exisist, "In the beginning God created..." is sufficent for everything else. I can accept that God did it and I don't know how. If He needed me to know, He'd reveal it to me. If on the other hand, you come from a place of skepticism about God, that verse and everything that follows must be scrutinized and answered for.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 8, 2022, 11:00 AM
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The Bible is suppose to be a manual on how we are to live and "do things right". If it was crafted by a Superior being with Salvation/Damnation being determined, then it should be very clear and not ambiguous. A superior being would know this and give us the proper tools instead of a source of conflict that leads to death and destruction. How many millions of people over the centuries have been butchered and were burned alive squabbling over what is "correct" and what is "heresy" because the Bible is poorly written and lacks clarity?
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Orange Blooded [3033]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 8, 2022, 11:47 AM
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I don't think we should pin it on God the problem of man misinterpreting the Bible or interpreting the Bible as he sees fit, then destroying those who don't agree with him. Man has disagreed and at times killed one another over pretty much everything since he existance of man. I'm curious, you said you hope there is salvation. What does that look like to you and who would determine it?
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 8, 2022, 12:01 PM
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2000 years later and the world is still burning and we have no more clarity than we did when the Roman Empire was still a thing. And this will continue as people will live and die without any concrete evidence as to which of the religions, if any, is correct. It's still a guessing game,, and that's sad. I'm just saying the quiet part out loud.
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Orange Blooded [3033]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 8, 2022, 12:24 PM
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I wonder though what kind of evidence people would accept. If the New Testament is true (go with me on this) there was penty of evidence yet people didn't believe. Jesus performed miracles. So did the Apostles. Jesus rose from the dead. Still, there were those who didn't believe. I think the same holds true today. If someone not inclined to believe got a miracle, they'd still be in unbelief.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 8, 2022, 12:45 PM
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How many people actually witnessed Jesus rise from the dead versus being told about it? But yes, you do have a point. The overwhelming support Trump continues to get from conservative Christians despite everything that has come out the past 6 years is evidence on how people ignore evidence, even if it contradicts the values they pretend to uphold.
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Orange Blooded [3033]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 8, 2022, 12:52 PM
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As a Christian, I don't care for Trump. I thought he was better than the alternatives, and that ain't saying much. I don't understand why Christians prop this guy up as they do. The fact that our national election comes down to Trump v Clinton and Trump v Biden speaks to the sorry state of things.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as
Feb 8, 2022, 1:33 PM
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Yup
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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None of these heathens have asked any question...
Feb 7, 2022, 7:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: No one believes you. Tar and I will discuss anything as ] |
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that I haven't asked of God. I found all I ever needed in the Scripture. They would too if they had any real desire to find answers. Their purpose is to confound and so they do to spiritual children. You know, the ones Christ talking about when He said it was better for those who offend these little ones if they had a millstone tied around their neck cast into the sea?
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Hall of Famer [23925]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 8:23 PM
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People who haven't been born of the spirit of God are already there - they are not connected to God.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 8:30 PM
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 8:54 PM
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Still interesting how no one will answer the question directly.
So I guess what you are saying is that the answer is yes. If you are not a Christian you are going to hell. How are you people not intelligent enough to realize that is BS? Do you not understand how many great people are born in other parts of the world who aren’t exposed to Christianity have done at least 100 times more than any of you(and me) to help the world?
If you believe that all non-Christians are going to hell then I don’t understand your critical thinking abilities. It’s the most arrogant thing in the world to say that only Christians are going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 8:57 PM
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 9:01 PM
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But tell me how I am wrong T3? You just can’t do it. Tell me how it’s not arrogant for Christians to think that everyone else in the world is going to hell because they aren’t Christians, even if they have done outstanding things to contribute towards society? I’m waiting for your response. Can’t wait to hear if it’s rational or just changing the subject because you know I’m right.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 9:04 PM
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 9:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell? ] |
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I still suggest you read John and then Romans. If you’re looking for debate you can find it on this board. If it’s answers you seek then read the books I suggest. You asked about the African in the hut that has never heard. I realize that’s a tough question but please read Romans 1:20 specifically. But again , please read both books in their entirety.
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110%er [6395]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 9:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell? ] |
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See, that last part about 'you know I'm right' exposes your predisposition. You're a contrarian, opants, full of questions already answered in your mind. You seek validation in the doubts of others, because you have few if any convictions of your own. You're a projectionist, seeking strength in a weakness you cannot define; a sniveling naysayer with little to say; a parasite sensing its host may be dying, and frightful of what that might mean.
Plus, you're annoying.
Say, how 'bout change it up a bit? Ask the same questions of Islam and get back to us.
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Hall of Famer [24628]
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That first paragraph of condemnations certainly brings into
Feb 7, 2022, 10:08 AM
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question YOUR self-annointed Christianity...
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Hall of Famer [23925]
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110%er [6395]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 8:56 PM
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The answer my friend, is this:
In the afterlife
You will be headed for the serious strife
Now you make the scene all day
But tomorrow they'll be h#ll to pay
Gluttony, lust, avarice and wrath
Sloth and self-serving pride
All the things that you try to hide
Will be revealed on the other side
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Team Captain [499]
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Analogy that you may understand
Feb 6, 2022, 9:43 PM
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Many are angry at the scientist that have arrogantly imposed their will about vaccines and not allowed any of us to think critically about it. Clearly they have not been exactly right or even close to right, and many in the biblical far right world have been the biggest critics of that arrogance.
Surely you can understand the irony of the situation. Christians hate arrogance from scientists, but are OK with being arrogant about the fact that they are the only ones going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell.
Understand that 90% plus of the Bible and Christianity I agree with. But just as science constantly changes, what we know about the world constantly changes.
While most of my core identity is influenced by Christian values, my overriding theme is live by the Golden Rule. I also believe in critical thinking, and so many of you are very intelligent but yet at the same time close minded only when it comes to the Bible. I just don’t get that.
So believing in treating others as you want to be treated makes me reject the biblical stance that only Christians go to heaven and everyone else in the world goes to hell. I don’t understand why everyone doesn’t think this way. The only explanation is people are unwilling or incapable of unwinding only a small portion of the brainwashing you received growing up in your churches. Almost none of it is bad, but a small part of it is. You should be able to think through this, but most of you just can’t do it.
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110%er [6395]
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Re: Analogy that you may understand
Feb 6, 2022, 10:01 PM
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Round and round and round you go, trying to convince yourself that crusaders wielding swords of d#mnation are closing in fast here on T-net, condemning you to an everlasting inferno of Catholic imagination.
Perhaps you should try communism.
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All-In [29036]
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Well, I can see where we disagree
Feb 6, 2022, 10:47 PM
[ in reply to Analogy that you may understand ] |
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You've come to this conclusion well before asking individuals the question:
"The only explanation is people are unwilling or incapable of unwinding only a small portion of the brainwashing you received growing up in your churches"
I can truly understand the questions you raise. I have many of the same ones, even as a Believer, and work through them daily on issues of faith, but I stop short at the "other folks must just be brainwashed" end of the line thinking.
I'd invite you to explore whole host of churches/groups/organizations of faith that would happily walk through their reasoning. You may end up disagreeing, heck I'm sure I disagree with some facet of the theology of every one, but you also may understand more and begin to see folks as more than simple brainwashed simpletons unwilling to face the issues you think beyond them.
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All-TigerNet [13356]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 6, 2022, 10:02 PM
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Why do you care if I think you’re going to hell? Honest question. You’ve proven that you don’t care enough to read scripture.... so it can’t be that serious.
I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.
-Albert Camus
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Legend [17854]
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Question for you - Are all Christians going to heaven?
Feb 6, 2022, 10:09 PM
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Please help me understand why you think your answer is correct. I really can't find anyone to answer this for me. Not straight up anyways. Always get some run around about helping the old lady next door with her groceries or some stuff like that.
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All-In [29036]
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My take
Feb 6, 2022, 10:25 PM
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First, I'm going to operate under the assumption that this is a question in good faith. The reason I have to even say that is that it is the sort of question often asked as if it is some sort of logical gotcha that will cause problems to the believer who is answering. But again, I will assume it is a question from genuine interest and not argument.
My take starts with a simple "I don't know" and moreover I don't think anyone "knows." I think knowledge and belief are two very different things, and that Faith sits outside the realm of what I'd refer to as assured knowledge. I believe a lot of folks from every religious persuasion (including none) have a ton of beliefs and opinions and that none of it approaches knowledge. So I'm usually very careful with throwing around what I claim to "know."
But as to my opinion, I find it rather simple. I believe humans are by nature sinful creatures in need of redemption by their gracious creator. I believe that the sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to provide that salvation. And I believe that every human is presented with the opportunity to believe that proposition. I know there are individuals who will never hear the name of Jesus while on this planet, and I choose to believe that they too will be given a very real chance and choice. Yes, I choose to believe that as I cannot find it in my conscience to not believe deeply in the grace of our creator.
In short, my opinion, is that EVERY single person will be given the real and honest chance at salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus. As far as the title Christian, I suppose if you'd like to separate groups by the outcome of those individual choices then I'd answer "Yes", but I also think we will never, on this mortal coil, know the outcome of the choices made by those souls.
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110%er [6395]
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Re: My take
Feb 6, 2022, 10:52 PM
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"But again, I will assume it is a question from genuine interest and not argument."
No, you won't. And no, you haven't. You want an argument, or else you wouldn't seek offense where none is offered. Turn thy hopes east, wayfarer, east across the Atlantic, the Rhine and the Danube; east to lands where men are temporal gods, and souls are but dreams dried to bone. There, perhaps, may the scales fall from thine eyes.
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All-In [29036]
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I didn't seek offense
Feb 6, 2022, 11:06 PM
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And I can promise you I am FAR from offended. I'm happy to discuss this with anyone. My intent was to explain why others read his initial post as less than a sincere question.
I'm unsure where I came across as offended or defensive, could you show me where I did so?
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110%er [6395]
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Re: I didn't seek offense
Feb 6, 2022, 11:28 PM
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My bad, Thom. Thought I was replying to the OP.
That said, sure would be nice if some of these atheist types just came out and yelled "LIFE IS MEANINGLESS" instead of hounding others about pesky beliefs in a higher existence.
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110%er [6692]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 7, 2022, 1:20 AM
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No...nobody is going to hell. It;s just like we can't go to the North Pole to see Santa.
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Oculus Spirit [78823]
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all non-Mormons go to h e l l
Feb 7, 2022, 11:06 AM
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it is written
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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Why do you ask?***
Feb 7, 2022, 12:10 PM
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: Why do you ask?***
Feb 7, 2022, 6:49 PM
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Just had a chance to review all the comments to my OP.
First of all, a couple of you have countered with what about Muslims? No argument here. Of all the religions out there, Christianity is the best one by far in my opinion.
I sincerely did not know if the Christian doctrine had changed to a more flexible stance on the thought that all non- Christians go to hell. Admittedly, I suspected it had not. Yes, if you want to say the question was somewhat preloaded that would be fair. But it wasn’t completely preloaded.
My problem with religion in general is the all or nothing approach that you must interpret the scripture exactly as it states or you can’t be part of the club. Seems it would be acceptable if you agree with the overwhelming majority of the Bible, but question parts of it that you just can’t buy into.
Understand that I have no interest in convincing Christians to abandon their faith. Just think it’s a fair question to ask about some of the principles that at least in my mind aren’t logical.
The ironic thing to me is many of you hard-core Christians on this site question everything non-religious based on the media, science etc. But when it comes to religion, you will not go there.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Why do you ask?***
Feb 7, 2022, 8:02 AM
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: Why do you ask?***
Feb 7, 2022, 7:01 PM
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So where was that all powerful being before the last 5000 years of humanity? Why did he not care about the first at least 500,000 years of humanity and some would say even as long as 2 million years of humanity until the last 5000 years?
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: Why do you ask?***
Feb 7, 2022, 7:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why do you ask?*** ] |
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And to counter, we have almost 2000 years of the "church" which has been proven to be corrupt and wrong.
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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Chruches are a mess.
Feb 7, 2022, 7:44 PM
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The Church is filled with sinners who are saved by grace. The Church is God's Kingdom. He inhabits their hearts. We are sinful but we belong to Him who has saved us.
I'm not a big fan of churches either but I couldn't lie and say that any particular church is favored by God. We are spread into all denominations and there are some who might be redeemed from other religions. That is why God's children are reluctant to say all hindi, muslims or others are rejected. Besides not being in authority to judge another we are fully aware that God's call is to "whosoever."
The OP asked an impossible task expecting a yes or no answer. Both and either responses would be considered a lie by anyone who has read the Gospel.
Basically, the question is above our station, or paygrade if you please.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: Chruches are a mess.
Feb 7, 2022, 8:39 PM
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Does it really make sense for God to expect us to make decisions with conflicting and unclear information? Sometimes you just have to say "Come on man. Really?"
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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There is no conflicting information in the Bible.
Feb 8, 2022, 5:27 PM
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Anything which conflicts with the Bible is either wrong, incomplete or the one making a claim about the conflict is confused or deceived.
You really only need to make one decision, is God Faithful to His Word. Has Christ come? Past that your decisions are a part of God's work. He has this amazing way of forming a spiritual Christian. He is the potter and I am the clay.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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Hm.
Feb 7, 2022, 7:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why do you ask?*** ] |
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I don't remember hearing about any church or denomination professing that Christ has not come and that He is the door by which one enters God's kingdom and becomes a subject of God.
You can believe what you want to believe but so can I. I believe that a man born and named Jesus is the Christ and now sits on the right hand of the Almighty.
What I believe may never change what you believe but I can promise, what you believe will not change what I believe. Neither of us can believe so much that we change the truth.
I also believe that one who does not recognize God's presence in this life should not complain if his end is in a place where God truly is not. Some were born to that and some of us were not.
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: Hm.
Feb 7, 2022, 7:28 PM
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That’s fine. My belief is how I treat other human beings will determine my afterlife. You didn’t answer the question about why God didn’t show up until 5000 years ago. I guess that means he doesn’t care about all humans born before 5000 years ago which goes back at least 500,000 years and probably much longer? Do you want to try to explain that one?
Again, I think Christianity is way more good than bad and I’m glad it works for you. But I’ll never apologize for asking questions about things that don’t make sense.
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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Re: Hm.
Feb 7, 2022, 7:35 PM
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That's because your faith has driven you to believe that man's spirit was born half a million years ago. You may be deceived to think that some form of man existed then but your scientist have provided no proof that they were any more than animals.
The Bible says a man called Adam was formed by God and into Adam God breathed the breath of life which made Adam a living soul. You've read it, did you miss something?
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: Hm.
Feb 7, 2022, 7:44 PM
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So what you are saying is animals don’t deserve God‘s grace. Only humans deserve to be loved by God. Seems interesting that 5000 years ago God deemed humans evolved enough to deserve his love. Do you not think God created evolution? Or are you one of those people that denies evolution? So how ridiculous is it that God only loved creatures once they were considered human enough? That makes zero sense. How do you not understand how ridiculous that argument is?
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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Don't change the subject.
Feb 7, 2022, 8:01 PM
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I stated what you believe.
'That's because your faith has driven you to believe that man's spirit was born half a million years ago. You may be deceived to think that some form of man existed then but your scientist have provided no proof that they were any more than animals."
That is based on what you said, I never agreed with your statement. No where in my words can you assume I agreed that man has been here half a million years. That came straight from your post.
I said what I believe without hesitation.
"The Bible says a man called Adam was formed by God and into Adam God breathed the breath of life which made Adam a living soul. You've read it, did you miss something?"
Read my post again and leave the emotions for another time.
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: Don't change the subject.
Feb 7, 2022, 8:12 PM
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I read your post very carefully and I’m still confused. It’s so interesting how no one wants to give a direct answer to my questions because you know that there is not a logical response to my questions.
So you believe in this magical thinking of the Bible that this person breathed life into someone and all of a sudden we became humans and now God loves us and he didn’t love us in the previous at least half 1 million years? Is there not a part of you that says this makes no sense?
I am quite expecting some sort of indirect answer to my question because you know you can’t answer it directly.
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Legend [19865]
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Re: Don't change the subject.
Feb 7, 2022, 8:18 PM
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If they said God snapped his fingers & said Abracadabra would you believe them then?
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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Do you want to continue this discussion or are...
Feb 8, 2022, 8:25 AM
[ in reply to Re: Don't change the subject. ] |
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you going to continue to be overly aggressive? I will continue if you wish and I will put forth great effort to be more clear but accusing me of dodging the question because you haven't heard me with words that please you isn't part of a conversation I will have.
Let me make this simple.
If you want to continue then let me say this. I do not believe man was born of a puddle of slime. I believe exactly what Genesis says about man. That man was created by God, that God breathed into man the breath of life and that man became a living soul.
The contention I had to your statement was that I do not believe man existed half a million years ago. I believe exactly what my KJV Bible says and nothing more other than what God's Holy Spirit helps me to understand from God's Word. I am not ashamed to have my understanding of spiritual matters on display.
My original question to your OP was 'Why do you ask?' Please don't make it clear to me that you are just trolling for comment which you believe provide you with occasion to insult.
A man who is not born of God's Spirit through faith that Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son and died for that man's sin can not enter God's Kingdom. That is the bottom line. Unless you think what I believe has any bearing on you, you should not be upset with my belief.
No matter when or how one believes that man came to be, without a spirit man can not exist outside his mortal body. You've seen no scientific "empirical," evidence that man has a spirit you don't have to explain why anything I say confuses you. Thus, why would you seek answers to spiritual questions when you do not believe a spirit exist?
Thus, why do you ask?
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: Do you want to continue this discussion or are...
Feb 8, 2022, 6:43 PM
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I’m happy that Christianity works for you.
It’s really as simple as this and the reason for my original question. I just don’t understand how someone who is born in a different part of the world and not exposed to Christianity is destined to not go to heaven. I’ll never understand that.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Re: Do you want to continue this discussion or are...
Feb 9, 2022, 9:19 AM
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They'll say that you're playing "gotcha" and will never really address it. Or you'll get a long winded rabble, maybe have some scripture quoted, but nothing is really said and they'll claim they "answered" it.
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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You stay out of it until he and I are through.
Feb 9, 2022, 9:37 AM
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If you then still have questions I will be delighted to accommodate. If he decides to end the discussion early you may take up the cause in place of him.
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Orange Blooded [3987]
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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How about this?
Feb 9, 2022, 11:03 AM
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I can't keep up with two people grilling me on an internet forum. My comments are sometimes longwinded, which provides plenty of opportunity for you guys to drive a stake in me.
If you want to ask the question then I will exclude him from the conversation. Here, tmail, email or phone call? If you want to talk in person I can tmail my number to you. Anyway you want but if we speak over the phone or by any private communication I request that some information I provide not be made public.
You say...
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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At one time that bothered me too.
Feb 9, 2022, 9:34 AM
[ in reply to Re: Do you want to continue this discussion or are... ] |
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I was younger then and had a different perspective. We're adults, if you want me to explain the understanding I got when I sought of God I will explain it.
It will take a while for it's conceptual. It may not satisfy you if you've already made up your mind that God is unjust and/or it may frustrate you due to being conceptual and be of a different perspective than we have. It's going to take a lot of patients for the both of us and you must ask for explanations for my comments which may not be stated clearly, I'm prone to do that sometime.
Now you have what you want, a believer who is willing to share almost anything he understands about God, His Kingdom, His position and His attitude.
Do you wish to do it here in open forum or would you rather use Tmail? BTW, it bothers me that so many are not going to Heaven. I know what it is and wish that no one miss it.
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110%er [6692]
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Re: Are all non-Christians going to hell?
Feb 7, 2022, 7:05 PM
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Nobody is going to heaven or he**. That's all man made bullshyatt.
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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Have you lost any loved ones...
Feb 7, 2022, 7:36 PM
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to oblivion yet?
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110%er [6692]
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Re: Have you lost any loved ones...
Feb 7, 2022, 8:11 PM
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Yep...My Dad, aunt's and uncles,. all of my grandparents, and lots of friends I still love. My Mom is 78 and at most Ii have 20 more years with her. Why?
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CU Medallion [59967]
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No and it’s pretty simple to understand
Feb 7, 2022, 8:44 PM
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If you know of Jesus and his debt he paid for you and then deny him, yes, you could face that fate.
If you know him and embrace him, you are in a good spot to go to heaven.
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: No and it’s pretty simple to understand
Feb 7, 2022, 8:59 PM
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Fine. If that works for you that’s great. But so interesting how no one wants to critically think about religion even though you are so willing to think critically about politics, science etc.
Still no one has explained why God only loved us 5000 years ago when it is obvious from a scientific standpoint humanity has been around at least 500,000 years. Still waiting for a logical response to that question,
If your response is no I don’t really understand that, but I still think Christianity is the best path towards the best life I can live, then I 100% completely respect that. But no one wants to acknowledge that maybe some of the Bible isn’t right even though it’s clearly the right way to live life to follow the Bible.
If Christianity would accept people who believe most of the Bible but not all of it and not be arrogant and condescending to those who question the a small part of Bible, and perhaps that would be the first step in reversing the trend of people who go to church going down in substantial terms over the last several years.
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CU Medallion [59967]
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There are PLENTY of churches
Feb 7, 2022, 10:13 PM
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that do what your last sentence stated. Mine does….and they have tons of Bible workshops where people ask tons of questions. We have a mens Bible study and some of the questions are very much of an atheist mindset. Not one cares, we are all there for the same purpose.
Now you are not going to find a Baptist church that will act this way, but that is why you have choices in life.
Faith. It all basically runs on faith. I can see if you are super cynical how faith could be hard to understand.
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CU Guru [1381]
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Re: There are PLENTY of churches
Feb 7, 2022, 11:05 PM
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I think thats the answer- Faith in whatever one chooses to believe
There's no reason to say "just read scriptures", "the answer is there" and such. Reading scripture would do nothing but raise more questions and confusion.
Just say you have faith that God is good and he is gonna do good. I don't know if there is an all powerful god or anyone/anything paying attention & pulling the strings... If there is, and he IS all good, he is certainly not all powerful
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Team Captain [499]
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Re: There are PLENTY of churches
Feb 8, 2022, 7:44 AM
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Tony, I can agree with your post completely. That makes sense
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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There are two ways to ask God a question.
Feb 8, 2022, 8:32 AM
[ in reply to Re: There are PLENTY of churches ] |
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The only correct way is to ask with a heart willing to accept the answer even if it contradicts everything you think you know. I spent years listing to preachers before I began to question their beliefs and weigh them with what The Bible says. My time of asking with a 'right heart,' is nearly 50 years now.
The wrong way to read the Bible is to question God by expecting Him to respect a proud heart. Anyone looking for something in the Bible which they can declare wrong won't read a chapter without finding it.
The Bible has great stories in it but it contains truths which are impossible to understand/comprehend without God's help.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: There are two ways to ask God a question.
Feb 8, 2022, 11:07 AM
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Good post 1988 and I agree. Mathew 18:3 describes exactly what you are saying if anyone cares to read it.
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CU Guru [1381]
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CU Guru [1381]
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Re: There are two ways to ask God a question.
Feb 8, 2022, 11:13 AM
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Then *god should be replying in this thread
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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This will cover all your questions
Feb 8, 2022, 5:35 PM
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https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/![]() OFFICIAL KING JAMES BIBLE ONLINE King James Bible Online: Authorized King James Version (KJV) of the Bible- the preserved and living Word of God. Includes 1611 KJV and 1769 Cambridge KJV.
If it's not worthy for research then you really don't care about the answer.
I am a firm believer than anyone searching for God will find Christ while at some time during their search.
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CU Guru [1381]
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Re: This will cover all your questions
Feb 8, 2022, 5:53 PM
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Oh believe me I’ve researched and researched. And I have yet to find answers except the ones listed here “faith” and “can’t comprehend”
People have been asking these questions for a very long time and if it was a clear answer don’t you think folks would stop asking? I get it your faith has you believe a certain something but let’s not pretend there are answers … after all that is what faith is
*strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than evidence or proof
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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I lean on the Bible for definitions.
Feb 8, 2022, 6:19 PM
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After all, how does a blind man comprehend the color orange?
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Thinking relatively, one might appreciate that another may consider faith sufficient.
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CU Guru [1381]
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Re: I lean on the Bible for definitions.
Feb 8, 2022, 8:30 PM
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"how does a blind man comprehend the color orange?"
Is that a serious question? Obvious being blind, a person could not comprehend colors
"one might appreciate that another may consider faith sufficient."
I do appreciate it on a certain level, but you should be able to appreciate that another may not
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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I appreciate that others disagree with me.
Feb 8, 2022, 8:58 PM
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But as a nearly 70 yr old I can say I have been your age but you have yet to be mine. That's an analogy related to me once being blind, lost but now being able to see. It is not anything that someone might do by effort, intelligence or by other device. The vision to see the truth comes as a gift to those who are called and accept it.
I don't know why God chose me. Perhaps the fervent prayers of my parents or grandparents. All I know is that it wasn't because of my behavior, character or personality.
I fully appreciate that others disagree. I have no issue with any but I love to share my understand of questions when someone is willing to be patient, polite and responsive to my opinion. We don't have to agree, we only have to communicate to understand. Even when we strongly disagree we can come to an appreciation of one another if we adhere to general politeness rather than sniping at one another.
I think you believe that an acknolegement of God is sufficient to meet requirement to be a subject of His Kingdom. Was that from your power to reason or is it some believe held by an organized religion?
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CU Guru [1381]
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Re: I appreciate that others disagree with me.
Feb 8, 2022, 9:23 PM
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I was speaking more about your faith is sufficient for you. As in people can believe what’re they want. Blind faith in the unseen is not sufficient for me to believe it what’s stated in scriptures. I question all of it
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All-In [27256]
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Re: I appreciate that others disagree with me.
Feb 8, 2022, 9:29 PM
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You have the same amount of “blind faith” that there is no God than the person who believes there is a God. Neither of you can prove there is or isn’t.
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CU Guru [1381]
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Re: I appreciate that others disagree with me.
Feb 8, 2022, 10:38 PM
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It’s impossible to prove a negative. Can you prove to me there’s no Easter Bunny? Santa Claus? Great Pumpkin?
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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God doesn't expect you to believe until...
Feb 8, 2022, 9:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: I appreciate that others disagree with me. ] |
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He calls you. When that happens you won't be blind to the truth. At that point you will make a decision on whether to receive His gift or not. Thinking you won't make a decision at that time will, in fact, be your decision.
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CU Guru [1381]
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Re: God doesn't expect you to believe until...
Feb 8, 2022, 10:43 PM
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When/if he calls we can chat about things then. I’ll make an informed decision based on the facts and evidence laid out
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Orange Blooded [3033]
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Re: God doesn't expect you to believe until...
Feb 9, 2022, 11:33 AM
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You really think if He calls you you're going to require further evidence?
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CU Guru [1381]
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Re: God doesn't expect you to believe until...
Feb 9, 2022, 7:54 PM
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Sure! c'mon man, when the apostles didn't believe, he did some miracles, walked on water, turned some water to wine, raised the dead, and so fourth. So I think that's reasonable
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Legend [17854]
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All-In [27256]
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Re: No and it’s pretty simple to understand
Feb 8, 2022, 9:26 PM
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What is the proof that mankind existed more than 5000 years ago? Carbon dating?
You realize carbon dating is a theory NOT a law. There’s no scientific proof that the earth is 500 billion years old. There’s no proof the humans existed 50000 years ago. It’s all theory.
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Legend [17854]
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Re: No and it’s pretty simple to understand
Feb 9, 2022, 8:25 AM
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Well, my post certainly went over your head. The question is not about how old the earth is, or about how long people have been. IT IS about God's love for His creation.
BTW, just curious, but how long do you think Adam was in the Garden of Eden?
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Oculus Spirit [93567]
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I don't think anything went over anyone's head...
Feb 9, 2022, 11:49 AM
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I think we sometimes get lost in conversations between 6 or more people and key off on some tangent. I think that's what happened to the poster you addressed.
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All-In [27256]
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Re: No and it’s pretty simple to understand
Feb 9, 2022, 5:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: No and it’s pretty simple to understand ] |
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Sorry my post wasn’t directed towards you. I have no idea how long Adam and Eve were with God. I can only assume a human death was part of their severance package. So it could have been 100s or 1000s of years. Or possibly just 20-50.
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Legend [17854]
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Re: No and it’s pretty simple to understand
Feb 9, 2022, 9:55 PM
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No problem... easy to understand how it happens in the place. Sorry if I responded over the top with it.
Anyway, that is one of the questions that knocks me around. And it's one we will never know this side of heaven.
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