|
Replies: 58
| visibility 1
|
CU Guru [1606]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1140
Joined: 7/1/13
|
$20 Trillion in debt
Nov 4, 2016, 9:40 AM
|
|
And who's footing the bill for the POtuS to travel the country campaigning? Fuel for Air Force One, fuel for cargo jet carrying ground transportation vehicles, fuel for Air Force escorts, Secret Service payroll....
We are!
In the mean time job creation numbers are awful, Obama Care is a disaster, and despite being the highest taxed nation in the world, and the Dems want more $$$!
Everyone should be pissed!!
I really wonder about some of you folks on the left.
|
|
|
|
 |
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
this has been going on for 8 yrs and no one cares
Nov 4, 2016, 9:41 AM
|
|
it seems
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [49031]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38808
Joined: 12/31/97
|
Only 8 years?
Nov 4, 2016, 10:38 AM
|
|
I could have sworn Clinton was the only President recently to run a budget surplus, but maybe I was wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46816]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30720
Joined: 8/11/15
|
Debt is not all bad
Nov 4, 2016, 9:43 AM
|
|
it's not a question of the amount. It's a question of how much until we run into hyper-inflation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
ya, lets wait til that
Nov 4, 2016, 9:46 AM
|
|
good idea.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46816]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30720
Joined: 8/11/15
|
Probably not gonna happen anytime soon
Nov 4, 2016, 10:23 AM
|
|
even with increases on the debt.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
now i see why there are libs
Nov 4, 2016, 10:29 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4035]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 3263
Joined: 4/13/16
|
Re: Debt is not all bad
Nov 4, 2016, 9:48 AM
[ in reply to Debt is not all bad ] |
|
good lord. and to think you are teaching kids. shudder.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46816]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30720
Joined: 8/11/15
|
Sine you're the expert,
Nov 4, 2016, 10:25 AM
|
|
answer this question.
Who do we owe the most amount of US debt?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [111519]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 73737
Joined: 9/10/03
|
Re: Sine you're the expert,
Nov 4, 2016, 1:24 PM
|
|
me me me, I know the answer.
And our debt serves as damocles dagger, so to speak.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37176
Joined: 11/22/03
|
Sorry, but that is a theoretical argument when debt is...
Nov 4, 2016, 9:54 AM
[ in reply to Debt is not all bad ] |
|
to being paid off.
The national debt is $20TT and there is no positive that comes from that level of debt....none.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46816]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30720
Joined: 8/11/15
|
Who would be collecting that debt?
Nov 4, 2016, 10:22 AM
|
|
Which country/entity?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37176
Joined: 11/22/03
|
How does that matter?***
Nov 4, 2016, 10:25 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46816]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30720
Joined: 8/11/15
|
Because as I said, the debt isn't the issue
Nov 4, 2016, 10:31 AM
|
|
it's if the people who collect on the debt come calling.
The US treasury has NEVER (absolutely never) missed a payment (this is why the dollar is strong, our credit rating is really good, and entities have no problem lending money with us).
Shawn Hannity would say it's servicing the debt. However, we all know the US employs a lot of people who know how to work those numbers. With us having the great relationship we do with many lenders and investors, the debt will not be a major problem.
Also, no other country wants the US to fall into an issue with debt servicing. This includes collecting on the debt. We live in a global economy. When one country (especially the largest economy on earth) falls onto hard times, the rest of the world becomes screwed (look at the Great Depression and the recent 2008 recession). No other country wants to see the US start falling (except N.K) because that would spell disaster for their own economic systems (yes that includes China).
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37176
Joined: 11/22/03
|
Umm...you're talking about a lot of different issues at...
Nov 4, 2016, 10:39 AM
|
|
once.
I said no positive comes from this level of debt. What positive do you see from this level of debt?
The reason it is a problem is that even at the current low interest rates, we're spending about 6% of our budget on interest payments on the debt. That works about to about $223BB.
Based on current budget trends and growth of entitlement programs, the debt will continue to increase and likely at a higher growth rate than the GDP. Interest rates will not stay this low forever. When they start to rise, we're going to have a serious budget crisis that we won't be able to continue to borrow our way out of.
Even if we balanced the budget for all FY's in the future and incurred no additional debt, the likely rise in interest rates alone will be a huge problem. It wouldn't be far-fetched to expect interest expenditures to go from 6% to 20%. Tell me what we would do then?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46816]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30720
Joined: 8/11/15
|
I will agree that this level of debt can become bad
Nov 4, 2016, 11:38 AM
|
|
I think where we differ is will it become bad for the country. The answer to that is probably not. At least no time in the future. In Macro-Economics there are a variety of ways to handle debt that does not involve bankruptcy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37176
Joined: 11/22/03
|
Where did I mention bankruptcy?...
Nov 4, 2016, 12:08 PM
|
|
"Can become"? You don't think 6% debt service is bad now??!!??
Let me explain it this way...
In 5 yrs, the national debt will be substantially higher and the interest rates will likely be higher. Interest payments will surpass 10% of expenditures.
I do not fear the US defaulting on its debt. What I fear are the implications on the budget and hard decisions being forced to be enacted over a short period, which will be economically painful. This is all a result of us continuing to kick the can down the road and not face the budget realities now.
The debt level is a problem now and is going to be a huge problem in the relatively near future unless action is taken soon.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
we are constantly paying our debt holders
Nov 4, 2016, 10:30 AM
[ in reply to Who would be collecting that debt? ] |
|
it is many entities. The problem isn't in the collection, the problem is when we stop paying, our credit rating goes to ####. That effects everyone in this country!!!! the price of everything will skyrocket.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46816]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30720
Joined: 8/11/15
|
In 240 years we have NEVER missed a payment***
Nov 4, 2016, 10:31 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
well neither did Greece
Nov 4, 2016, 10:33 AM
|
|
thats working out well for them. B/c it has never happened, doesn't mean it won't. And its not really about us right now, but our future.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46816]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30720
Joined: 8/11/15
|
I'll agree with that statement
Nov 4, 2016, 10:35 AM
|
|
however, I will add that we are nowhere near Greece level nor will we be for a long long time (also, population has an affect on that.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4035]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 3263
Joined: 4/13/16
|
Re: I'll agree with that statement
Nov 4, 2016, 10:42 AM
|
|
single payer insurance and free college will send us there on a rocket ship
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46816]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30720
Joined: 8/11/15
|
I agree with that too.***
Nov 4, 2016, 10:55 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [81049]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56116
Joined: 9/13/04
|
You know its not just "debt", right?
Nov 4, 2016, 11:32 AM
[ in reply to Who would be collecting that debt? ] |
|
Like selling bonds or T-bills to other countries en masse and having to pay off on that debt when those bills come due. Think more macro.
It's the affects of printing more and more money and liquefying (lowering) the value of our dollar to pay that debt back. RIght now, we're just making up valueless money by printing it to fund our government. That's why interest rates are so important.
Many libs keep talking about climate change as the next disaster, and if that it isn't stopped, it will spell the end for us all.
These same libs really need to get behind fixing our finances--because when the US economy collapses, there will be world wars, civil wars, famine and death the likes the world has never seen. Think apocalypse style, walking dead civil unrest all over the world. Worrying about where a polar bear sleeps won't even be on the radar.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37176
Joined: 11/22/03
|
I do not view money supply issues as being nearly...
Nov 4, 2016, 12:12 PM
|
|
as important as our national debt level right now.
I think the fears regarding money supply are drastically overblown. People have been predicting the demise of the US$ for decades now. Yet look at how the US$ is performing against other currencies currently. It's pretty dang strong!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [81049]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56116
Joined: 9/13/04
|
right now, maybe.
Nov 4, 2016, 12:20 PM
|
|
And I agree--at this point, we are doing much better than other countries.
But that's not necessarily a given.
At some point, the inflation will have to kick in. There's no way we just make this much money and nothing comes from it. Its only because the world has been stagnant for the last 10 years. And when the interest rates and inflation kick in together, it'd a perfect storm hyperinflation.
All will have to happen is the scare--the thought--the overwhelming sale of bonds--and the dominoes will begin to fall. It could get very ugly, very fast.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37176
Joined: 11/22/03
|
No, not really...
Nov 4, 2016, 12:23 PM
|
|
inflation doesn't have to kick in at some point. I don't see inflation kicking in until we start to have some real and sustainable GDP growth and a jobs growth boom.
Sorry...just don't see it the same as you do. Sounds like you've been listening to too many commercials for gold 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [81049]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56116
Joined: 9/13/04
|
No, the gold thing makes me laugh.***
Nov 4, 2016, 2:26 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [47750]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30413
Joined: 11/15/99
|
Debt is dumb, cash is king
Nov 4, 2016, 1:08 PM
[ in reply to Debt is not all bad ] |
|
And the paid off home mortgage is the status symbol of choice...
Or so I've heard
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I agree that I don't like taxpayer money
Nov 4, 2016, 9:46 AM
|
|
being used to jet the President around for campaigning. Taxpayer money should be used for the good of the general populace. I'd like to see the DNC pay for the President's campaign travels, if that's what they would like him to do.
I don't really buy into the notion that the President is shirking duty by campaigning, though. OK, Obamacare is a disaster, but what is he going to do by sitting in his office, as opposed to being in NC or FL? The onus is on Congress to change the law if they want to change the law. It'd be different if that's all a President did for four years, but this is standard stuff at election time. Bush campaigned some for McCain, didn't he? And Bush wasn't even popular at the time, like President Obama is now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1606]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1140
Joined: 7/1/13
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Oh, yeah.. Exorbitant numbers, for sure.***
Nov 4, 2016, 9:56 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37176
Joined: 11/22/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [49031]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38808
Joined: 12/31/97
|
They seem pretty chummy
Nov 4, 2016, 2:37 PM
|
|
and there are reports HW is voting Clinton, as well as Barbara and Laura.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37176
Joined: 11/22/03
|
So chummy = same? Don't think you can compare...
Nov 4, 2016, 3:52 PM
|
|
Bill Clinton to Bush I or Hillary to either first ladies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1606]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1140
Joined: 7/1/13
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [38514]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 47162
Joined: 10/28/02
|
The travel costs are paid by the campaign.
Nov 4, 2016, 9:49 AM
|
|
Secret Service costs are paid by taxpayers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I didn't know that. Very interesting.***
Nov 4, 2016, 9:50 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
yep, but the majority of the costs
Nov 4, 2016, 9:52 AM
[ in reply to The travel costs are paid by the campaign. ] |
|
are not really travel but paying everyone's expenses. Why else does cost 20 million when he goes to Paris or Hawaii.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1606]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1140
Joined: 7/1/13
|
Re: The travel costs are paid by the campaign.
Nov 4, 2016, 10:00 AM
[ in reply to The travel costs are paid by the campaign. ] |
|
Link?? Yes HillAir is paid by the campaign. Please provide any prof that the campaign is paying for Obamas entourage. Tia
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [83073]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80142
Joined: 11/29/99
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1606]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1140
Joined: 7/1/13
|
Re: The travel costs are paid by the campaign.
Nov 4, 2016, 10:09 AM
|
|
Per your link...
The rules allocate a portion of the flight costs to the DNC or the Clinton campaign. But they do not cover the full cost of operating Air Force One, estimated at $206,337 per hour. (It should be noted, that precise hourly rate is an Air Force accounting fiction of its own.)
Reimbursement rates are based on what it would cost to charter a plane to carry only campaign travelers. According to the FEC regulations, this plane "need not be the same size as the government-operated aircraft actually used. ... For example, a significant portion of Air Force One may be occupied by personnel and equipment mandated by national-security requirements and other needs associated with the office of the President, not the campaign."
In practice, reimbursement rates might be based on what it costs to charter a smaller Boeing 737, which is cheaper to operate than Air Force One.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [49031]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38808
Joined: 12/31/97
|
So we will note this concern in 4 years if
Nov 4, 2016, 10:42 AM
|
|
President Trump is spending taxpayer money campaigning for himself, or if (LOL, right) he is doing it for someone else in 8.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [81049]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56116
Joined: 9/13/04
|
I equate what the ruling class is doing to your children
Nov 4, 2016, 9:51 AM
|
|
to the slow stabbing scene in "Saving Private Ryan", where the German soldier is slowly putting a knife through Pvt Mellish's heart, telling him to "shhhh", and in German "it will be over soon".
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [83073]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80142
Joined: 11/29/99
|
Lutz. Maybe the Obama's should switch to a lower
Nov 4, 2016, 9:52 AM
|
|
grade of toilet paper and paper towels also.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [81049]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56116
Joined: 9/13/04
|
yeah..flying a 747 around the country is just budget dust***
Nov 4, 2016, 9:54 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [83073]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80142
Joined: 11/29/99
|
It is.***
Nov 4, 2016, 10:00 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [83073]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80142
Joined: 11/29/99
|
Seriously, though, the reason I'm pissed is that no one
Nov 4, 2016, 9:59 AM
|
|
has mentioned entitlement reform in many years it seems.
We need to cap medicare and medicaid, raise the age to get SS, and have huge cutbacks in defense.
These partisan attacks on how much presidents spend while traveling to campaign and while on vacation are petty and stupid. The left did it with Bush and now the right does it with Obama.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [47795]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44515
Joined: 9/5/02
|
agreed***
Nov 4, 2016, 10:09 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [48078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 49059
Joined: 5/16/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [137863]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63784
Joined: 10/22/00
|
The US is the highest-taxed nation in the world? Neat.
Nov 4, 2016, 10:19 AM
|
|
Where'd you get that bit of info from? Oh, right. A Trump speech.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [54758]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 52802
Joined: 10/1/03
|
Re: The US is the highest-taxed nation in the world? Neat.
Nov 4, 2016, 10:26 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37176
Joined: 11/22/03
|
We're clearly not the highest taxed country in the world...
Nov 4, 2016, 10:31 AM
[ in reply to The US is the highest-taxed nation in the world? Neat. ] |
|
by any measure, but I'm wondering why % of taxes as a function of GDP is a good way of measuring level of taxation. Never seen it expressed that way. Without thinking about it too long...doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [49031]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38808
Joined: 12/31/97
|
Comparing level of taxation to level of
Nov 4, 2016, 10:45 AM
|
|
the country's economic output seems like as decent measure as any, apart from maybe a direct comparison to personal income if your talking about personal taxes.
But as you said, we aren't the most taxed by ANY measure, but Trump still says it and people still eat it up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [48078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 49059
Joined: 5/16/04
|
And the people of Denmrk are constantly rated the happiest.
Nov 4, 2016, 10:49 AM
[ in reply to The US is the highest-taxed nation in the world? Neat. ] |
|
I am not sure that society could be replicated in the US though. Our population is so different and I am not sure they have the same immigration issues either.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [48078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 49059
Joined: 5/16/04
|
Yet Trump wants to rise it by 7 trillion.
Nov 4, 2016, 10:44 AM
|
|
Your candidate is the one who is projected to run much higher deficits than Hillary. You need to do some research my friend. Trump is the polar opposite of a fiscal conservative.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1606]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1140
Joined: 7/1/13
|
Re: Yet Trump wants to rise it by 7 trillion.
Nov 4, 2016, 2:22 PM
|
|
Yes. I've seen articles from Forbes and others backing that claim.
In all fairness that number is based on current income from taxes and current spending. Obviously if you drastically cut taxes will spending remains the same you're going to come up with a large number.
Now, if you cut taxes, especially on businesses, you spur growth. Even a small business such as mine could add 4-6 jobs over the next 18 months. That's 4-6 people who could be paying taxes versus living off government assistance. Just that small example adds revenue while reducing costs.
Add in reducing our trade deficient, and large corporations could build products right here in the USA again. 7.8 Milion unemployed Americans right now. The free market needs a kick start and incentive to get these folks into the work force.
If you can cut unemployment in half we have a completely different economic future. More paying taxes and less dependent on the government.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [49031]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38808
Joined: 12/31/97
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3590]
TigerPulse: 89%
Posts: 6987
Joined: 11/30/12
|
He's agreeing with Trump. Investment drives the trade
Nov 4, 2016, 5:39 PM
|
|
account balance, and American companies are investing outside the US. Capital investments IN the US is the only thing that would enable us to compete with low wages OUTSIDE the US. That is Trump's position, and it is correct.
With regard to debt. The only time debt is beneficial is when your returns are larger that the rate of borrowing interest. So what have been the returns on the $10 trillion borrowed in the past 8 years?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 58
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
