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Orange Blooded [4423]
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some bball thread 'annoyances' that i've seen recently...
Nov 12, 2021, 10:59 AM
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People love to hate on Brownell and bball, but aside from a few fans (like smilingtiger and JK) I wonder how many actually watch the games and keep up with the team because, the last few days we've seen things like this...
1. In regards to the new transfer Collins "he will fit right in because he cant shoot free throws"
In reality, we were 28th in the country last year in FT%. In the last 10 years, we've only been out of the top 100 in ft shooting 1 time and have been in the top 50 5 times. That includes over 300 teams. So, just not true.
2. In regards to the game against PC last night "winning this close should be a fireable offense"
Yea, it wasnt a blowout win, but early season bball games are weird. College bball is weird. And on opening night, Pitt, GT, and UVA all lost to teams that they were 10+ point favorites against.
3. "Dawes is a turnover machine"
For his career, he averages 2.1 turnovers per game. Playing point guard and 25+ mpg's.. thats far from a 'turnover machine'
4. My favorite... "Brownell is the worst coach in the ACC"
Ok, we consistently outperform expectations. He finishes in the top half of the league more often than not and we are coming of an NCAA birth. Again, just not true
ok, rant over. had to get it off my chest. pay attention and pull for these guys. tonight will be a tough test!
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All-In [43996]
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I love your post!
Nov 12, 2021, 11:02 AM
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Great points!
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: some bball thread 'annoyances' that i've seen recently...
Nov 12, 2021, 11:05 AM
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Are you as gracious too Dabo and the Football coaches?
Heck they have been the best in CFB and then this year hits and people wanna fire them.
I used to support Brownell but frankly I don’t like his attitude and I think He has been given more than enough time to win .
But He is here so Go Tigers!
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Orange Blooded [4423]
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dont even get me started on that...
Nov 12, 2021, 11:12 AM
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i am gracious, yes. I think they've earned plenty of clout to have a 'bad year'. I expect they will work to improve on the weaknesses we've seen this year and will be right back up in the top 10-15 next year. I get really tired of seeing all the genius 'coaches' on here that seem to know everything.
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CU Medallion [67718]
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Re: some bball thread 'annoyances' that i've seen recently...
Nov 12, 2021, 11:17 AM
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what gets me are those who think we should just automatically be as good as NC and Duke and yet they have no hoops interest or intellect. This board is littered with them
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CU Medallion [55664]
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BB has us punch above our weight almost every year.
Nov 12, 2021, 11:22 AM
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Which is admirable.
Wish we weren't always the mighty mites, but it is what it is.
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All-In [29036]
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I am NOT a Brownell hater
Nov 12, 2021, 11:23 AM
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In fact, I'm on record as saying I 100% support and refuse to denigrate any Clemson coach with the thin exception in place for off the field issues that might tarnish Clemson.
With that said, I think there is another way to look at this part of your 4th point:
"Ok, we consistently outperform expectations. He finishes in the top half of the league more often than not"
Again, this is a discussion of expectations vs reality. I am not in any way insulting Brownell, and he 100% has my support as long as he is here.
However, if consistently finishing in the top half of the league more often than not is exceeding expectations, than potentially doesn't that say just as much about the level of expectations for Clemson? Finishing 6th or 7th in a league where you were picked to finish 12th should certainly be seen as a positive in isolated cases, however if it repeats in many/most years then the question may be why is Clemson constantly being picked to finish that low. Is that a result of our performance, our recruiting?
Just a question worth asking.
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Freshman [-98]
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Poor Logic
Nov 12, 2021, 12:35 PM
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ACC hoops is not the same as ACC football, so while cutting thru the relatively weak group that we get assigned to in football is not miraculous, doing so in hoops would be.
Those clowns that expect to sweep the ACC in both (or fire the coaches), are the result of too much success of the football side.
Wrap your minds around the fact that we beat UNC at the DD for the first time ever last year. Is it logical to have the same expectations for the two sports?
Absolutely not, and if you don’t understand this, how did you get into Clemson? Probably did not…
Our fan base needs to grow up.
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All-In [29036]
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Nice argument
Nov 12, 2021, 1:23 PM
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But, ultimately, a straw man. I'm not, at all, arguing that we should be judging the performance of football and basketball by the same measure. In fact, I didn't even mention football.
My point is simply that the only way you can consistently "overachieve" by finishing in the top half of the conference is if you are consistently being picked in the bottom half of the conference. That does show a bit of a lack of program progress over a decade.
Again, just to make myself crystal clear, I'm not talking about football and I support the coaches in all of our sports, including Brownell. But, you can't disarm all criticism of his program by waving your hand and saying "his teams overachieve" without then also admitting that your year-to-year expectations are in line with the predictions that we would be in the bottom half of the conference.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Nice argument
Nov 12, 2021, 1:27 PM
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Yes - that was a classic strawman that our most fervent basketball defenders love to employ. Accuse someone of thinking we should “sweep the ACC” - something probably no one has actually argued ever. Then compare it somehow to football. Then imagine yourself the victor of the debate.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: some bball thread 'annoyances' that i've seen recently...
Nov 12, 2021, 12:03 PM
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Since it’s your favorite can you please show me a post where anyone has seriously argued that Brad Brownell is the worst coach in the ACC. I have to be JK’s biggest detractor and, though I think it is long past time for both Clemson and Brownell to move on, I don’t think he’s a bad coach. I just think we’ve gotten exactly what we’re going to get out of him. 90% of my engagements with JK are when he presents a mix of outright lies with misleading representations about the state of Clemson, ACC, and NCAA basketball past and present to aggrandize Brad Brownell. And yes, I watch virtually every game. Have been to at least one Clemson home basketball games for all but one of the last 30 years and haven’t missed a Clemson/Carolina basketball game in person over the same period.
To your other specific points:
1) have seen that specific comment about Collins. Free throw shooting had been improved under Brownell. Not sure how anyone could argue otherwise. But for fans who are old enough to know coaches other than Brownell, Clemson is known for legendarily bad, and often game decidingly, bad free throw shooting. So redundancy makes the brain say “here we go again” when we miss key free throws.
2) yes, weird stuff happens in early season games. But it happens to Brad more than most ACC coaches or his predecessors at Clemson. I did the math long ago in a rebuttal to JK. Not doing it again. He has lost more games to sub 100 rpi coaches than any of his predecessors at Clemson going back through Bill Foster. He has lost more per season. He usually does this in the early part of the season and it puts our RPI in a hopelessly low position for making the NCAA tournament. Think of all the season we rattle off a seemingly impossible winning stretch in the ACC, a large number of posters become convinced we’re tourney bound, and we don’t make it. That’s because of losses to really bad teams. PC is extraordinarily bad team. They were sub 300 rpi last season (where the also currently reside) and won, I believe, 6 games all year. Nothing whatsoever significant has changed at that program.
3) never seen anyone call Dawes a turnover machine. He obviously isn’t one. But you don’t really evaluate strictly on turnovers. It’s the assist to turnover ratio that matters and his is basically 1:1. That’s not great to say the least.
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Letterman [256]
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Re: some bball thread 'annoyances' that i've seen recently...
Nov 12, 2021, 12:58 PM
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1. You proved his point. Fans not paying attention was part of his post.
2. Biggest gripe might be that Brownell takes too long to pare/refine the rotation. That's understandable, but it's also a testament to Brownell that his teams are almost always better at the end of the year than at the beginning.
3. Dawes is called a turnover machine at times. 1:1 in the context of a traditional point guard is bad; however, Dawes is a scoring PG, so you also have to take into account his scoring when determining his quality of play.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: some bball thread 'annoyances' that i've seen recently...
Nov 12, 2021, 1:23 PM
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Which point of mine do you think you successfully refuted to imply that I validated his point of not paying attention. I guarantee I’ve watched more Clemson basketball than anyone else in my age bracket.
Your point about Brownell refining the rotation and finishing stronger than they start doesn’t refute what I said. He does lose a disproportionate number of games to teams below 100 in RPI. If he found a rotation that wouldn’t lose half of those games he would have made the NIT or NCAA every year and we wouldn’t be having these debates. Barring significant injuries virtually all sports team improve over a season. I don’t understand how you think this is a significant attribute of our coach.
So my point about about Dawes is valid but you think he scores enough to offset the 1:1 ratio as a scoring point guard. Do you have a point threshold you use. If he was averaging 4 asst to 2 turnovers at his present scoring he’d be generating 13+ points a game rather than his current 9. Kendall Marshall (yeah, I know it’s an high bar) averaged 10:3 a/t a game while still scoring 8 a game. So a net impact of 22+ points a game. I only use Marshall because he’s considered a prototype pure point guard - and he still scored 8 a game at UNC. So Dawes 9 isn’t exactly crazy for a scoring guard. And again, I’ve never called him a “turnover machine” nor have ever seen it written outside of this thread.
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Letterman [256]
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Re: some bball thread 'annoyances' that i've seen recently...
Nov 12, 2021, 1:33 PM
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Your first point about "here we go again" is not indicative of Clemson basketball under Brownell. That indicates a lack of watching the game. I didn't say that you weren't watching the game, but the OP's post was about "fans" that didn't watch or follow the program making remarks that don't fit.
You and I are mostly in agreement with number two, but I don't agree that most teams improve over the course of the year, or at least as much as Brownell's team do. Brownell's teams consistently compete and finish in the top half of the ACC. That should be commended. Yes, I would like to see the early season struggles go away.
As to three, I didn't say that you in particular called him a turnover machine. And, I like the idea of points created; however, I would like to see the numbers moving forward. I'm not saying that Dawes will average 20 ppg the rest of the way, but 25 points created the other night should satisfactory, no?
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Orange Blooded [4423]
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Legend [16900]
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Re: some bball thread 'annoyances' that i've seen recently...
Nov 12, 2021, 4:01 PM
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I see no correlation between how many threads I read on TNet and how much I know about Clemson basketball. I agree that’s a dumb hot take someone made in game during the Tuesday night’s game. I didn’t see it but certainly did not claim it couldn’t have happened. I am much more skeptical of the worst ACC coach claim but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t been made. But anyone that would make it doesn’t deserve a rebuttal. Your OP implied that folks who might not supposed BB don’t watch or understand Clemson basketball. As you could easily affirm by reviewing my posts on the topic and overwhelming percentage of my posts are correcting incorrect information by others - usually JK. If that happens to be contrary to BB then so be it.
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Orange Blooded [4423]
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Orange Blooded [4423]
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Letterman [256]
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Re: some bball thread 'annoyances' that i've seen recently...
Nov 12, 2021, 4:04 PM
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Not sure I would pick that one. OP is a troll.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: some bball thread 'annoyances' that i've seen recently...
Nov 12, 2021, 4:07 PM
[ in reply to Re: some bball thread 'annoyances' that i've seen recently... ] |
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Ok - thanks for the link. I think that falls under my caveat of someone having any credibility. It seems like you picked a couple of idiotic troll comments, one made in game and then sort of tied to a broader criticism of anyone not happy with the current state of affairs. Now, before you reply that you didn’t do that then there would have been no relevance for to citing JK as some sort of knowledgeable fan. We can be knowledgeable about Clemson basketball be unhappy with the state of affairs. And JK is not a positive advocate for Clemson.
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All-TigerNet [13693]
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Re: some bball thread 'annoyances' that i've seen recently...
Nov 12, 2021, 3:09 PM
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I wouldn’t place much weight on a couple of low-pulse coots who won’t even have an account here much longer. The ClemsonAlum1987’s will come and go….and come again. The best way to offload them is to ignore.
Trolls die of silence.
Here’s to a great BBall season!
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Oculus Spirit [76760]
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THIS^^^^^^***
Nov 12, 2021, 4:37 PM
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