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If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
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All-In [43979]
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If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 12:39 AM
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why can’t we?
A fair question. I would say that we absolutely can, too.
In case you are wondering, here is what each of those schools spends on men’s basketball each year:
Auburn University, $11.8 million
University of Tennessee, $10.5 million
University of Alabama, $9.4 million
Clemson spends $7.9 million a year on men’s basketball.
As you can see, Auburn spends roughly $4 million more per year than we do on men’s basketball. Tennessee spends about $2.5 million a year more than we do, and Alabama spends about $1.5 million more a year than we do.
If you want to know what they pay their coaches, here are their salaries:
Rick Barnes, $5 million/year
Bruce Pearl, $3.9 million/year
Nate Oates, $3.225 million/year
For reference, Clemson pays Brad Brownell $2.6 million a year.
I hope this is helpful for some of you.
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Commissioner [976]
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How about a football school from our own conference
Jan 17, 2022, 12:44 AM
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For fair comparison. Someone like Florida State. How much does their coach make? They seem pretty good at basketball. Let’s give our coach a huge raise to whatever Leonard Hamilton is making so we can be as good as they are.
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Orange Blooded [2025]
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Leonard Hamilton, FSU's coach
Jan 17, 2022, 12:56 AM
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takes home a massive salary of $2.25 million, which is simply incredible.
Hmmm??
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Commissioner [976]
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That… that can’t be right
Jan 17, 2022, 12:58 AM
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Does he know that? Why is he winning so hard then? He should be trying less.
I’m sorry but that’s just not possible to pay a coach 2.5ish million to do a great job. That simply isn’t reasonable.
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110%er [9656]
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Seriously. Does Hamilton know he’s being ripped off so badly?
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Jan 17, 2022, 5:05 AM
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Not sure how he’s even making ends meet.
He seems like a really nice guy, too.
I’m thinking of starting a GoFundMe for his family.
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All-In [43979]
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Hamilton is in his early 70s and agreed to a lower salary
Jan 17, 2022, 11:25 AM
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in exchange for a more incentive-laden contract.
His total salary package is much higher than Brad’s.
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Commissioner [976]
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We should do a heavy incentives package too
Jan 17, 2022, 11:28 AM
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Would save us a TON with Brad. And if we got a real coach we would gladly pay more for success.
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All-In [43979]
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We already do basketball on the cheap.
Jan 17, 2022, 11:52 AM
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We can't cut any more corners than we already do.
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110%er [6972]
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Re: We already do basketball on the cheap.
Jan 17, 2022, 6:33 PM
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Paying a dude $2.6 million to coach a handful of college athletes is hardly cutting corners. A coach who routinely gets beat by mid majors
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CU Guru [1684]
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Re: Hamilton is in his early 70s and agreed to a lower salary
Jan 17, 2022, 12:10 PM
[ in reply to Hamilton is in his early 70s and agreed to a lower salary ] |
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in exchange for a more incentive-laden contract.
His total salary package is much higher than Brad’s.
Good point, Brownell should have a $1 salary and the rest in incentives. If the past is our guide, his total incentive pay would be in the ballpark of $500k per year.
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Orange Blooded [2842]
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Re: How about a football school from our own conference
Jan 17, 2022, 9:32 AM
[ in reply to How about a football school from our own conference ] |
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I could be wrong, but I don’t believe his point was “pay brownell more”. I believe he was stating salaries so that you could compare the investment difference in the programs. If he simply stated the spending difference for each program, naturally the first questions would be coaches salary. This could be covered later in the thread and I didn’t read far enough. But it sure seems as though you are interpreting the post incorrectly.
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All-In [43979]
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Correct. I’m not asking Clemson to pay Brownell more.
Jan 17, 2022, 11:18 AM
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I think he is paid fairly. He certainly isn’t overpaid like many people here seem to think.
The issue is total funding for the program. We don’t put nearly enough toward it.
A common tactic for critics here is to say that there are other football programs like Alabama, Auburn, and Tennessee (all three have specifically been mentioned here recently) who are good at basketball.
The insinuation is that we should be able to have similar success.
I agree, we can absolutely have similar success - if we are willing to support basketball like those schools do.
Otherwise, we are just continuing to be cheap when it comes to basketball while continuing our unreasonable expectations for it.
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110%er [5474]
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 12:49 AM
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Are you saying Brownell is sandbagging until he gets a raise?
Or are you saying we need a better coach?
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110%er [9656]
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This is such a great question, and JK has never been able to answer it.***
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Jan 17, 2022, 5:02 AM
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It really HAS to be one of the two.
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CU Medallion [58323]
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No argument from me. Now it's time to find a new coach,
Jan 17, 2022, 12:51 AM
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pay him, properly fund and support the program, breathe life into it and give us long suffering fans a glimmer of hope. Resistance or hesitancy to any of that is baffling to me.
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110%er [5961]
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I feel sorry for this dead horse!
Jan 17, 2022, 1:00 AM
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He’s been beat to death, resuscitated, beat again, buried, exhumed, and beat one more time.
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CU Medallion [58323]
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The horse is not dead; the problem still exists.
Jan 17, 2022, 1:35 AM
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Good, loyal, long-suffering Clemson fans are still clinging to the hope that an attempt will be made to fix it.
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Legend [17577]
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CU Guru [1536]
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 1:00 AM
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As a reference I’d also like to know how much Clemson athletics brings in in comparison to said schools to have more of a percentage and not just a number
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Varsity [223]
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Response To The Judge's Post
Jan 17, 2022, 1:14 AM
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Judge - for the most part, I applaud your posts. Whereas others tend to let their emotions run wild, you are often the sole voice of reason. I think it is very important that before you take a man's livelihood away, taking a 360 degree look is only fair, and you truly make many rational points that get overlooked in the loud chorus of boos. However, one could draw the conclusion from the metrics you provided that if Clemson would just find another $1.5M and hand it to Brad, that things would get better. Frankly, given his history and his record, I can't imagine that boosting his pay $5.0M would make any difference at all in his performance as a coach. I think that your arguments tend to me more objective and the majority of other's who post are subjective. For myself, I believe the time has come to place more weight on subjectivity. It's time to usher in a new era of Tiger Basketball. Then the question can be made, "who would come to Clemson" that has the ability to consistently field a top 20 or even top 15 program? Fortunately, neither of us has to make that decision - but I don't envy the new AD in his responsibility when making it, but I really think such a person exists.
Keep up the good work and "don't let the ######## keep you down," because your sage advice, while not always on the mark, is a source of illumination. You have become somewhat of a celebrity on this site, and I'm sure that everyone, no matter their point of view, seldom, if ever skips by one of your posts.
BTW - I once asked Leonard Keller if anyone had sought permission to use his brand as their handle on Tigernet. I'm sure you know what he told me.
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All-In [48021]
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Re: Response To The Judge's Post
Jan 17, 2022, 8:21 AM
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I too applaud his persistence concerning our bball program. I think your argument is well constructed. I agree with the points. That said, I've asked judge a half dozen times, if we had this money, how would it be spent and what is Clemson lacking that other schools have?
The response is the same, fan support and more coaches pay. Fan support is a paper Tiger argument that can't be quantified. You know, Brent Venables wasn't paid very much when he was hired, neither was Larry Penley, both earned it by what product they put on the field/course. 12 years and Brad has failed to do that.
Cut ties with Brad, find a CBV or CLP that gets it done. Be it recruiting, or x and o's. Same holds true for Amanda Butler. It's really not complicated... But it starts with changing managers.
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Legend [18780]
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Really good post.
Jan 17, 2022, 9:26 AM
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I could not have said it better myself.
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All-In [43979]
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Please stop saying that I haven’t provided specifics.
Jan 17, 2022, 11:43 AM
[ in reply to Re: Response To The Judge's Post ] |
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I have provided specifics many times, including a direct response to your post about this the other day.
We need to spend more on the following:
-Assistant coach pay
-Additional staff to help with recruiting
-Continued facility upgrades
Why is this such a sticking point for you? Duke and Louisville each spend $12 million more than we do per year on basketball. Syracuse spends $6 million a year more than we do. Virginia, Florida State, and Virginia Tech all spend $2.5-$3 million more per year than us. This is a big deal.
I hope this is helpful for you.
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All-In [43979]
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Thanks.
Jan 17, 2022, 11:24 AM
[ in reply to Response To The Judge's Post ] |
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I’m not calling for Brad to make more. Our program needs a lot more funding for assistants, support staff, marketing, etc.
I didn’t feel that I needed to ask Judge Kelley’s store for permission to use the name on an online message board, just as I’m sure you didn’t feel the need to ask Thomas Green Clemson’s descendants for permission. No disrespect or harm is intended.
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Varsity [223]
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Re: Thanks.
Jan 17, 2022, 6:01 PM
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I looked, but I couldn't find any!?? honestly, if Clemson died with no heirs, hence his gift of his land to the State of South Carolina. Who should I have asked, really?
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MVP [530]
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Let's take the $7.9mi....
Jan 17, 2022, 3:35 AM
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To the football program, the real revenue generator, and eliminate the basketball program, liquid any assets. Upon liquidation that $ too would be transferred to the football program-
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CU Medallion [73569]
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All those schools fired their coaches and hired
Jan 17, 2022, 3:36 AM
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Studs.
We should do the same
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110%er [6153]
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The “stud” Tenn hired quit on Clemson and was fired by Texas
Jan 17, 2022, 8:01 AM
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The “stud” Auburn hired was previously fired by Tennessee.
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Legend [19567]
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Barnes made a Final 4, recruited at an elite level
Jan 17, 2022, 8:54 AM
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and made the tourney all but a couple of years out of what, 18-19 years? And how'd that firing of Barnes and hiring of Smart work out for Texas? To say Barnes is not a stud is just stupid.
Pearl is a cheat, but a successful one
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110%er [6153]
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Not saying he’s not a stud. Saying he’s a *quitter* ...
Jan 17, 2022, 11:32 AM
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He quit on Clemson, plain and simple.
If he were really a “stud” he’d still be our coach, and we’d be a basketball program to be reckoned with.
But he didn’t believe he could succeed long term at Clemson so he bolted for Texas.
And yes, he did well there, but he didn’t help Clemson (he quit) and that is absolutely all I care about.
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Lot o points [155518]
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That's not why he left.***
Jan 17, 2022, 6:14 PM
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110%er [6153]
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Yeah, yeah ... we all know the scuttlebutt. Basically, ...
Jan 17, 2022, 7:45 PM
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He quit. Period.
Select your own reason and go with it.
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All-TigerNet [12233]
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So... the gist of the OP is that if we would just spend
Jan 17, 2022, 4:57 AM
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more money and then Clemson's long history of sorry basketball performance would improve/vanish??
Who knew that if we just spent another $2 million on Brad's salary that he would somehow coach better??
This logic reminds me of how the USA keeps throwing more and more money at our K-12 public education system only to ultimately see our student test scores not improve.
I get it - it takes money/investment to build winning sports programs but there is a point to where it takes more than just throwing a money at a problem. After 12 years of Brownell, Clemson has reached that point with basketball...
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Orange Blooded [4180]
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Re: So... the gist of the OP is that if we would just spend
Jan 17, 2022, 5:41 AM
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This sounds just like the education system in this country. Keep throwing money at it——it’ll work.
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All-In [43979]
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I am advocating for spending more money on Clemson
Jan 17, 2022, 11:51 AM
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basketball because our current coach has shown that he provides an excellent return on investment.
Logic dictates that a greater amount spent on the program, while still being spent wisely, would generate additional success.
I have provided numerous examples of how Brad has provided a great ROI, and also how other ACC schools as well as "football schools" are spending way more than we are on basketball.
I hope this clears things up for you.
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Orange Blooded [4180]
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Legend [18780]
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The problem with the school system is money
Jan 17, 2022, 9:09 AM
[ in reply to So... the gist of the OP is that if we would just spend ] |
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I am teaching in Peru and saving about 30% of my salary which is almost double what it was in the states. In the US, I was burning into my savings from prior jobs before becoming a teacher.
The second problem is the parents.
So most of the few who are willing to take the abuse from the parents, administration, and unruly students fall into mostly two categories: angles sent from heaven and ones who had starry eyes about what being a teacher might be until those dreams are crushed by the reality of the $hitshow then out of the profession in 1-3 years.
If the job paid what it was worth, the parents/system would hold students accountable then you might find more of those who started teaching stay in it, get more experience, become better educators, and test scores could improve.
The smart ones are moving to other countries in Europe, China, and other parts of the world where they get paid better, respected.
Meanwhile, education in America slips and you get more QAnon types who lack critical thinking skills.
If you don't think there is a correlation between test scores and money spent in schools then do a little bit of research.
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All-In [43979]
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Again, I don't think Brad needs a higher salary
Jan 17, 2022, 11:49 AM
[ in reply to So... the gist of the OP is that if we would just spend ] |
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at this point.
But we do need to spend more on the program as a whole.
I referenced coaches' salaries so the people who think "we pay our coach plenty" can see that the football schools that they envy are paying their coaches a lot more than we are. In other words, when we find ourselves with a head coaching vacancy, the "hire a young up and comer" strategy that we typically adopt is not what the aforementioned schools have done. They ponied up the cash for a proven winner.
Those schools aren't just paying a coach more, they are also providing the budget for assistant coaches (they don't pay theirs less than the national average like we do) and other program needs.
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CU Guru [1250]
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 6:07 AM
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0/10.
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Orange Blooded [2987]
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 8:02 AM
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I don’t think it’s relevant how much the coaches are paid. We need some good comparative analytics on how much the players are paid. That’s where we could up our game to win more.
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110%er [7191]
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 8:10 AM
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Maybe because the schools you mentioned are all SEC schools, and as anybody who listens to the bias on eSECpn will tell you even SEC Basketball is on par with ACC Football.
Of course an even more fair comparison would have been to mention the University of Cooterville Women's basketball program.
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CU Medallion [64891]
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So, you are finally saying that we need to buy us a better
Jan 17, 2022, 8:27 AM
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basketball coach?
Because Brad Brownell will not suddenly get smarter and coach better, just because we paid him more money.
And please, don't bring up the football program for comparison. The football program has achieved results that are better than any school in the country not named Alabama. And the huge pay increases came, for the most part, AFTER those results had been achieved.
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110%er [6280]
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 8:33 AM
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Yes we need to spend more on a better coach. I think most agree with that.
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Team Captain [487]
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 8:47 AM
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I think some of the more traditional football schools have pushed winning in basketball a bit more in recent years. I am not sure that has been the case at Clemson. Yea, they stuck some cash in a redo of Littlejohn. But they only did that because it was starting to look like an antique in this era. Brownell has had a couple of moments in his tenure. Got through two rounds as a 5 seed one year when he got lucky in the matchup lottery in the first two rounds. The program isn't a total embarrassment. Nor does it threaten any real good program. If mediocrity had a picture beside of it in the dictionary it would be a picture of Brad Brownell's years at Clemson. In a way, he has the best job in all of college sports. He has become a multi millionaire without seemingly being held to any standard of performance. And he just keeps getting extensions like the last one that wasn't deserved. Not sure if it was the administration overall, or it was Radakovich. But it almost feels like as long as football is in elite status that as long as the program just isn't a laughing stock that it is OK.
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CU Guru [1254]
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 8:41 AM
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Thank you for the math lesson for those that can't subtract.
Those coaches have been rewarded for their success. So if we pay Brad more then he will be more successful?
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Orange Blooded [4086]
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 8:55 AM
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So you are saying coaches with a history of long term success get paid more?
Who knew?
#######
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Legend [19567]
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We've been at the juncture so many times in Brad's tenure it
Jan 17, 2022, 9:09 AM
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seems like groundhog day. In the past, he was spared by the transition to the new LJ, and a Sweet 16 run. Brad is a good coach, but unless we put together a consistent run here quick, we're staring at yet another year where we miss the tourney, and possibly even the NIT.
If we make a move, we likely face losing this recruiting class, and quite possibly Hall, the most talented player Brad has ever recruited. But is Brad capable of putting together enough quality around him to really have another great year? That's always been the question.
I don't think Brad is fired. I do think there is a chance, and this is something I've mentioned numerous times, a deal could be negotiated where he moves to administration. He's a quality man, and has shown himself to be a good administrator. But as a coach at Clemson, things have seemingly run there course.
A new coach is likely starting from scratch, but that's not unusual. And not a death sentence with the portal. But new blood is needed for the overall health of the program. If Brad still wants to coach, an opportunity will present itself. A year or 2 away from coaching is probably something he could use.
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All-American [593]
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 9:45 AM
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I stand corrected. My salary data was from 3 years ago for Bruce Pearl. At that time he was making ~ 2.8 million/year.
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 11:31 AM
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If we take out the coaches salaries from the numbers provided by JK, the money spent by Auburn, Tennessee and Alabama is $1.5m, $1.3 and $0.875 million more than Clemson respectively. It would be nice to see how these extra amounts are spent - on assistant coaches, recruiting, facilities, band, other?
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Orange Blooded [2808]
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 12:07 PM
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I advocate for Coach Brownell to take a $1Million cut in compensation in exchange for $ 2Million in increased spending on the program to be allocated towards the items identified by JK. These terms should run for the length of his now extended contract from DRad.
In my view Brownell hasn’t earned the amount he’s currently getting with respect to recruiting and in-game coaching adjustments. I appluad his ability to run the program with very good academics and stay clean in a rat infested college basketball environment. That counts for something. He loves Clemson but knows he needs more investment, therefore I am proposing he do like Harbaugh and make the first move to help free up new funding. If he succeeds he earns the rewards later. Personally I think nothing changes because he isn’t a good enough recruiter at place that’s difficult to recruit top players. I also don’t think he can adapt his desired style of play so not much can change for the horrific scoring droughts.
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CU Guru [1753]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1621
Joined: 12/11/07
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 12:47 PM
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Lost me at Tennessee being a football school.
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Orange Blooded [4035]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3527
Joined: 8/19/03
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Re: If football schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Alabama can be really good at basketball
Jan 17, 2022, 6:28 PM
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So, again you claim if we simply paid BB 2-4 M more, we would be in the top 20 consistently. Does that mean BB has been tanking games on purpose in order to try and get a raise? He has been holding back all the good coaching in order to do this?
Clearly not. Either he is a coach that can build a program or he is not.
Stop with the money will solve all out issues mantra.
When a coach comes in and shows promise and builds something, then - increases can be discussed. Not before.
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All-TigerNet [10822]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9006
Joined: 12/8/02
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So we should hire a more expensive coach?
Jan 17, 2022, 8:08 PM
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I would support this
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