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Topic: Question for the Christians on the board
Replies: 55   Last Post: Oct 11, 2020, 1:01 PM by: Buddy2018
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Question for the Christians on the board

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:29 PM
 

Let me preface this by saying it is not an attempt to bash anyone for their beliefs. This an honest question by someone who currently attends a baptist church and has gone to one all his life. This was prompted by something someone posted in another thread.

In the past few years I’ve started reading the Bible on my own and have discovered that a lot of things Christians are currently against were prevalent in the Bible. I’ll get to the main one in a minute but a couple other major contradictions are alcohol and rules surrounding marriage and sexual relations. The Bible clearly alludes to the fact that Jesus and his followers drank wine and he even rebukes the pharisees for judging him for it. Not to mention all the Old Testament verses that approve of and even encourage it. Also many biblical figures- Abraham, David, Solomon, etc. had multiple wives and concubines which I guess was a term for “side piece” back then.

But the contradiction that was brought up in another thread was the mass genocide that happens in the Old Testament supposedly directed by Yahweh.....but yet Christians so vehemently oppose abortion.

How do you reconcile these things from the Bible with your beliefs?

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Re: Question for the Christians on the board


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:35 PM
 

There’s debate about what wine actually was back then. Aside from that, I personally have no problem with alcohol. It has more to do with how people act while drinking. You can’t just use it as an excuse.

I’d have to see the passage you were talking about genocide, but the Old Testament has some pretty brutal stuff.

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Re: Question for the Christians on the board


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:12 PM
 

The bible does talk about genocide. Moses let some women and children live and God told him they will be a thorn in your side forever.

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Marcion of Sinope was an early Christian thinker


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:29 PM
 

who had his own following but was eventually excommunicated. Marcion pretty much only followed Luke's gospel and Paul's writings and discounted Matthew and Mark. Anyway, Marcion believed that the God of the Old Testament was a different God from the God of the New Testament. With such passages from teh OT, its easy to see why that belief was so appealing.

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Re: Question for the Christians on the board


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:36 PM
 

I believe any time wine is mentioned in a good way, it is referring to non-alcoholic grape juice. This is to fit it in context with other Scripture that is against alcoholic beverages.

Lots of people in the Old Testament had multiple wives and concubines, but that doesn't mean God was OK with it. Those guys were sinners, just like me.

God sometimes used people to execute His judgment on other groups of people, because of their rejection of Him. It's not pleasant to us, but it's His holy right. I deserve the same, but He has graciously allowed me to live.

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That's patently false.

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:49 PM
 

the entire reason we have civilizations are because of fermentation processes that killed off bacteria in the water so that early humans wouldn't get sick drinking the water.

In fact it was safer to drink beer and wine in ancient times than it was water.

But sure. Jesus drank grape juice.

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OK.


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:52 PM
 

Not sure how any of that contradicts what I said.

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You're claiming that Jesus drank grape juice that the bible

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:56 PM
 

says is wine.

I'm not saying that's not what happened because I wasn't there, but based on historical studies and trend, there's a very strong probability that it had alcohol in the "grape juice"

Just reminds me of the argument I had with my parents when they caught me drinking and I pointed that fact out. They tried to bring up the grape juice argument. I guess they forgot I'm a history major.

Message was edited by: FBCoachSC®


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OK.***


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:56 PM
 



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Re: You're claiming that Jesus drank grape juice that the bible

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:22 PM
 

My grandmother was a grape juicer. I cannot have just one tho.

Its time for Christian of all faiths to stand together against the non Christians and evil doers. I know they have been calling for the end of time for a long time. I have a feeling it is closer than a lot of people think. Issacs Newton predicted the end would be some where between 2034-2060. No one really knows. The bibles says some will know the season but not the hour.

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I think you've had one too many grape juice's***


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:24 PM
 



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Re: I think you've had one too many grape juice's***


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:40 PM
 

Sober as the day is long its just nice not to have to go back and forth about the coming election.

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Wow.

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 2:18 PM
 

Stand against us non-Christians. And do what to us, exactly?

And since the Bible calls for Christians to all be taken up in the Rapture, and that you're ticket is already punched and you come out victorious, why do you have to do anything against those who don't believe? I thought y'all were already covered?

Also, I believe you're a Trump loyalist, and you support his un-Christian and harmful behavior towards others, correct?

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Re: Wow.


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 8:43 PM
 

I am not sure about the Rapture. It may or may not happen. The Rapture teaching was started just 100 or so years ago. It may happen but most of the time God will test your faith. I know he has tested mine many times and I have came up with ever excuse in the book.

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Re: Wow.

[1]
Posted: Oct 9, 2020, 8:20 AM
 

You aren't sure about what's written in your own book?

So, just to be safe, you think you Christians need to band together against us non-believers? Why?

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Re: Question for the Christians on the board


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:53 PM
 

I don't think that they had un-alcohol wine. The main reason grape juice will turn into wine or vinegar. It says don't get drunk with strong drink. That means most likely a high alcohol content. They had many wives because God wanted them to build a nation. Just like not to eat certain things because they were unclean. I take that to mean they spoil quickly.
I for one don't drink any more because I could not stop with just one. A glass of wine every day is healthy IMO but not 6 or 7. That is why this country is so great because we can worship they was we want too.

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Re: Question for the Christians on the board


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:57 PM
 

We can worship in the way we believe in. Trying to eat lunch and type.

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Re: Question for the Christians on the board


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:01 PM
 

I am a Baptist grew up a Baptist and my family have been Baptist for several hundred years.

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For real though, how do you reconcile John 2:10


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 4:55 PM
 

that franc posted below? Why would it be out of the ordinary to serve the good wine after people had had too much to drink if not for their being alcohol in the wine? If it was all grape juice then there would be no reason for people to keep drinking when they had already had too much.

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Nothing about that verse indicates


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 5:11 PM
 

alcohol content. It simply talks about serving good stuff first, then when that runs out, going deeper into the pantry. That's how dinner parties work, I guess, though I've never been to one.

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But it implies alcohol content...


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 6:13 PM
 

the reason you serve the good stuff first at dinner parties is because when people have had no alcohol they can like and appreciate the taste of something better. But later, when they have consumed "too much drink" they a) cannot taste as well and b) will like anything because they have a buzz and lesser wine tastes just fine.

The entire premise of serving the good stuff first and the pond swill later is based on alcohol.

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You are free to make those inferences.***


Posted: Oct 9, 2020, 8:16 AM
 



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Re: Question for the Christians on the board


Posted: Oct 11, 2020, 1:01 PM
 

Question....did you arrive at your conclusion on what the Bible means when it says "wine" from a perspective that it already was wrong to consume it?

"Lots of people in the Old Testament had multiple wives and concubines, but that doesn't mean God was OK with it. Those guys were sinners, just like me."

Here's where the contradiction comes in. You make excuses for the Old Testament figures' mistakes, yet men like Jerry Falwell are tossed out because of their sins.

"God sometimes used people to execute His judgment on other groups of people, because of their rejection of Him. It's not pleasant to us, but it's His holy right. I deserve the same, but He has graciously allowed me to live."

This stance I assume you came to from a point of view that God was holy and just. From a neutral position it seems absurd that a holy person could slaughter children because of the sins of their fathers....

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as a member of a Mainline denomination (UMC)

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:38 PM
 

I've never had any problem with alcohol. Our church has a weekly "banter and brew" at a local brewery where we drink beer and discuss religious topics.

As for abortion, again, many mainline denominations have no problem with it and see it as woman's rights. Personally, after our long stay in the NICU following the early birth of our son, I think abortion after viability should be criminalized but I can appreciate all sides of the issue.

As for multiple wives, I think it took society thousands of years to figure out that a man can really only tolerate one wife at a time.

My general creed was often stated by John Wesley and is as follows:

IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS CHARITY.

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Re: Question for the Christians on the board


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:41 PM
 

I'm unaware of any Christian prohibition against drinking alcohol. I suppose some denominations discourage it and some as do some individual Christians. How do you see a contradiction between God's acts in the Old Testament and a Christian pro-life view? Are you suggesting that to be consistent, Christians today must view God's dealings with the Amalekites, Canaanites, or those in Sodom or Gomorrah as some kind of justification for abortion?

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Fundamentalist believe that the Bible (and usually

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:45 PM
 

only a particular translation/version) is inerrant, divinely written, literal, and incapable of inconsistency. Therefore if one verse says something and another something else, you must reconcile to avoid the inconsistency. Hence, consumption of any alcohol is a sin.

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This is my parents and their church (Pentecostal)


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:51 PM
 

that I have talked in depth about on here.

Any kind of alcohol of any kind is a sin.

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Re: Fundamentalist believe that the Bible (and usually


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:57 PM
 

I think Ephesians warns against becoming drunk. I'm not aware of a verse which says a person cannot consume alcohol. Not saying there isn't such a verse somewhere - just can't think of one.

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Re: Question for the Christians on the board

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:55 PM
 

So, the simple answer: That's what happens with multiple translations, authors, books, and denominations. It's been twisted and interpreted to suit others for their particular division.

The gospels don't even have the details of Jesus's resurrection in sync.

Look, people can believe what they want to believe and that's their prerogative. I can't tell em otherwise or tell em they're wrong. But if they cherry pick their book and try to tell other people they're sinning, well, that's a problem.

None of them ever want to address oyster roasts...

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The bible used as a history book is fine

[3]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 12:59 PM
 

the bible used as moral stories you would like to align your life with, fine.

The bible used to condemn the actions of others, not fine.

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History book is a bit questionable.

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:01 PM
 

Some of it? Yeah. A lot of it? Nah. There was no Exodus nor a Noah's Ark, and that's a problem when people point to a collection of stories and demand they be accepted as fact.

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Re: The bible used as a history book is fine


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 3:42 PM
 


the bible used as moral stories you would like to align your life with, fine.

The bible used to condemn the actions of others, not fine.




You would have been a terrible Crusader in the 12th century. Their mantra was, "To kill an infidel is not murder but rather the path to heaven."

Religion has been used for money, power, and politics for centuries. It is still being used for politics in this country and used for murder in some parts of the world.

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if you're trying to "sync" the gospels


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:01 PM
 

you're doing it wrong, IMO.

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Either something happened or it didn't.

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:03 PM
 

That is, if someone's going to argue it is to be taken literally.

How many angels were there at the tomb? How many days after his death did he ascend? Details are kinda important if we're going to argue historical fact.

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the gospels were written

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:17 PM
 

many decades after Jesus crucifixion by individuals who either heard stories or had access to now lost accounts (e.g., the "Q" Gospel). Worse, they were copied thousands of times by scribes who made mistakes and, worse still, sometimes inserted their own ideas or otherwise tried to correct a previous version.

So, its not surprising that there are inconsistencies but none of them bother me.

I'll never learn Ancient Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic and my Latin is pretty bad but I do enjoy reading the work of critical scholars such as Bart Ehrman who are fluent in these languages and have studied the earliest witnesses and contemporary literature.

Critical Bible Scholars, including agnostic and atheist among them, universally agree that there was a literal Paul and many of the epistles (though not all) in the Bible were penned by Paul. 1 Corinthians is one epistle which scholars all agree was actually written by Paul, likely in the 50s AD. Notably, in this Epistle, Paul states an early creed that was already being recited in pre-Pauline times:

"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve." 1 Cor. 15:3-5

So, notwithstanding inconsistencies in the Gospel accounts from even the first decades after Jesus's death, there was uniformity among followers of the Way that Christ died for our sins, was buried, arose, and appeared after.

Now, you may not believe that these things happened (and I take it you don't), but you really can't argue that even from day 1, the earliest Christians believed these things. This was not some later mystical invention.

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Re: the gospels were written


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:36 PM
 

I don't think Gods message has change with each translation. One of my sons took an old testament class @ Clemson and it was not from the KJV but from a Jewish version (no new testament). There are small variations but the meanings are still clear. You have to remember the new testament was written 2000 yrs ago. What John saw in Revelation was written in what he knew of the world @ that time.

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Re: the gospels were written

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 2:09 PM
 

Now, you may not believe that these things happened (and I take it you don't), but you really can't argue that even from day 1, the earliest Christians believed these things. This was not some later mystical invention.


I'm agnostic, so I'm open to the idea. I used to believe it but now strongly question the validity. However, you can argue the accuracy of the writings from the Apostolic Age. There are a lot of problems there. That doesn't make it false; but it doesn't make it historical fact, either. The gap from the moment it happened to when it was first recorded on "paper" opens a lot of possibilities.

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Re: Either something happened or it didn't.


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:39 PM
 

It is a book of faith. Not science, not history. I realize that to people who share your view that is an inadequate answer. The Bible itself says scripture is spiritally discerned and is folly to the nonbeliever. That's why I've never had a lot of interest in debating athiests. Nothing I say will change their opinion just like nothing they say will lead me to conclude they have somehow figured it out and the Bible is wrong.

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I don't think it's an inadequate answer...

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 2:04 PM
 

If that's the only answer. If it's just what you believe and want to believe it through faith, we'll go our merry ways in disagreement with no harm to anyone. And it's not my place to try to dissuade you from that.

It's when people start to declare it as historical fact, or demand legislation revolve around it, or try to force it upon kids as infallible fact.

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Re: I don't think it's an inadequate answer...


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 2:30 PM
 

I think you would agree that people are free to teach their kids as they see fit. If an athiest chooses to raise their kids in an environment of skepticism or even outright hostility towards organized religion, I'd personally find it unfortuante but wouldn't suggest they don't have the right to do that. This whole thread started over the question of abortion. I think you could make a strong argument against abortion, religion aside.

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Re: I don't think it's an inadequate answer...


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 2:37 PM
 

I think you would agree that people are free to teach their kids as they see fit.

Absolutely (well, unless they're teaching them to break the law or do other horrible things to people).

What's not okay is trying to get this agenda forced upon all kids in all schools, which is what used to happen, and took decades to work out of the system. That's more of what I meant.

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CIA

Re: Question for the Christians on the board

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:04 PM
 

Forget the resurrection, they can't even get the story straight in the FIRST BOOK. Genesis can't even get creation straight.

The first story runs from Genesis 1:1 thru Genesis 2:3; the second story picks up at Genesis 2:4 and runs to the end of the chapter at Genesis 2:25.
In the first story, Creation takes six days and man (and woman) are created last after all the plants and animals are created. In the second story, Creation takes one day, man is created first, then all the plants and animals are created, and finally woman is created.

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Re: Question for the Christians on the board


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:04 PM
 

I like you have been re-reading the bible this year too. We were doing Revelation in Sunday School when the Wuhan flu-virus hit. We did not finish it. Some thing in Revelation did not make any sense until the 20th century.

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The worse thing for your belief is to read the bible

[3]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:07 PM
 

I made it a point to read from cover to cover. First time I had a ton of questions so I read through it again.

Haven't picked it up since.

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Christians are hypocrites. It's a tough pill to swallow***


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:12 PM
 



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churches are full of people...

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:30 PM
 

who think the performative act of ritual or even tolerating a sermon each week will get them to heaven.

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Re: churches are full of people...


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:37 PM
 

I agree it even says so in the bible. Some people go to church as a social function.

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so I guess what the OP should ask himself...

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 1:49 PM
 

is not whether God is upset if someone drinks a beer, but what does the Creator (if he believes there is a Creator) would think about abortion.

Even in the horrible cultural norms of the Old Testament, Yahweh commanded the Jews to stand against injustice in their community. They were to care for the "underserved" and widows and orphans. Jesus lived out this message in the New Testament and the early church created systems to make sure that this was a function of the church.

If anything, a follower of Christ should speak up for those who have no voice. If calling oneself a "Christian" only serves as a nametag to try to identify one as moral, it's worthless.

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CIA

Re: so I guess what the OP should ask himself...

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 2:06 PM
 

Let's take a closer look, yet again...


• A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25).

• The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31).

• God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53).

• Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12).

• King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16).

• Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18).

• For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8).

• God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16).

• For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16).

• Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).

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Re: so I guess what the OP should ask himself...


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 2:23 PM
 

I will tell you what. You need to print out all of those passages from the bible and keep them on you all the time. When you meet your maker pull them out and say see I was right.

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CIA

Re: so I guess what the OP should ask himself...


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 2:34 PM
 

There is a copy of the New Testament and the Constitution on me at all times. Doubtful that paper print-outs will make it to the next plane of existence. You're thinking of ancient Egyptians or something.

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Hold on...

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 2:39 PM
 

You're telling me when I die, I'll meet my maker wearing what I had on and whatever is in my pockets?

What if I slip and fall when I'm just strolling around my house in my undies? I don't want to spend eternity in my boxers.

Or do I...?

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Re: so I guess what the OP should ask himself...

[1]
Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 4:31 PM
 

I guess a better way to pose the question would be....

Why would someone who is against abortion believe in a god that would do some of the things the Old Testament attributes to him?

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my answer to that doesn't really matter for you...


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 7:52 PM
 

I believe the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament. He has always been consistent. He has always hated sin but has always shown grace to man that he created. I see no difference between the two testaments.

On this specific topic of abortion, I believe God has always been on the side of the innocent.

I cannot nor is it my job to convince you of that. I can however, try to address specific circumstances but cannot give you a sweeping answer regarding every instance in the Bible.

People can (and have) cherry picked certain verses and make it mean what they want out of context, but I believe everything, taken in context stand in support of who God is and His infinite nature.

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Re: my answer to that doesn't really matter for you...


Posted: Oct 9, 2020, 10:42 AM
 

That was very well said.

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Re: Question for the Christians on the board


Posted: Oct 8, 2020, 4:51 PM
 

I'm no Bible scholar by any means but will offer an opinion just the same.

I think you are conflating two completely different things when trying to compare abortion to Old Testament God smiting. There are numerous Biblical verses where God indicates that the miracle of life is his and I don't believe we are the ones to be interfering in that process. Jeremiah 1:5, Galatians 1:15, Psalm 139:13 are a few verses where I derive my views on this. The argument for abortion today is "it's a woman's choice" as to whether to terminate a life in the womb. I have yet to reconcile that with any biblical evidence that God desires/allows women to terminate his miracle of life - it is God's domain and his alone.

Regarding God's "mass genocides"....The Bible is a tale of two worlds - one before Jesus (Old Testament) and one with/after Jesus (New Testament). The world that existed in the Old Testament was one where much of the human race was mired in savagery and moral depravity. Human sacrifice, cannibalism, and every other type of human depravity was commonplace among the human race outside of the Jewish people. At different points in time, man became so wicked in their hearts and behaviours that God punished man through acts such as flooding the earth (Noah's Ark), cleansing through fire (Sodom and Gomorrah), and in the case of King Saul - directing the wholesale killing of every man, woman, child, and animal of certain tribes (Amelekites). Remember that God knows the heart and mind of every human and during the world of the Old Testament there was no Messiah upon which redemption was available. As such, I'm fairly certain God only directed and inflicted the killing of those that were beyond redemption and whose physical and moral depravity posed a threat or otherwise negatively affected God's chosen people - the Jews.

In the New Testament world, there was still plenty of human depravity where the price for sin was/is still death. However, God loved us so much that he sent his Son (Jesus) to live among us, teach us, and ultimately serve as the ultimate all time sacrifice for human sin. With the New Covenant, all of us - Jew and Gentile alike, were provided a means of reconciling with God through accepting the gift of Jesus Christ - gone are the Old Testament days of offering animal sacrifices as atonement for sin! The choice is ours as whether we take God up on his offer of redemption and forgiveness.

Looking to the future, there will come a day where God's wrath will once again return to the earth. The New Testament book of Revelation covers this in some very interesting language but have no doubt that God is not done smiting those that remain unholy and actively refuse his grace.

Finally - regarding alcohol.... Plenty of Christian denominations allow for the consumption of alcohol - Lutherans, Methodists etc... If your church forbids alcohol consumption that is more of a denomination thing than a biblical thing...

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