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All-TigerNet [10901]
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Seeing UNCheat wear out Shaka Smart's press yesterday...
Mar 18, 2022, 7:33 AM
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reminded me of why I don't miss Oliver Purnell! Sure, that "havoc" defense can be exciting, but when you play a team that can handle the press, not so much. That why Purnell never won a NCAA tourney game. UNCheat was breaking the press and making wide open shots.
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110%er [7929]
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Re: Seeing UNCheat wear out Shaka Smart's press yesterday...
Mar 18, 2022, 8:10 AM
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The press worked great early in the season against overmatched teams. We would blow out average teams and every one thought we were world beaters. Then we would play a good team who knew how to pass the ball and could make a shot and we would get embarrassed.
That style of play did allow us to sign more talented but less skilled players who were easier to recruit than the skilled players who everyone wants. Seems our fans loved OP (i did too) but the truth his he had less success than CBB when it counted.
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Letterman [256]
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Re: Seeing UNCheat wear out Shaka Smart's press yesterday...
Mar 18, 2022, 8:16 AM
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Correction. Allowed Clemson to recruit better athletes, not necessarily basketball players, i.e., shooters.
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All-TigerNet [11428]
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Re: Seeing UNCheat wear out Shaka Smart's press yesterday...
Mar 18, 2022, 8:49 AM
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Correction. Allowed Clemson to recruit better athletes, not necessarily basketball players, i.e., shooters.
OP started addressing that as he was at Clemson longer. KC Rivers, Terrence Oglesby, Andre Young were good bkball shooters and players. If TO didn't go pro after sophomore season, Clemson could have really advanced far.
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Letterman [256]
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Re: Seeing UNCheat wear out Shaka Smart's press yesterday...
Mar 18, 2022, 9:07 AM
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Why does the "what if" game work with Purnell but not Brownell? What if KJ didn't go pro after his junior season? What if Clemson doesn't get hosed in 2019? That would have been 3 NCAA trips in 5 years: 2018, 2019, 2021. I think a rational fan would be ok with 60% rate of playing in the NCAAT.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Seeing UNCheat wear out Shaka Smart's press yesterday...
Mar 23, 2022, 2:42 PM
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What if Duke didn't buy off Zion? We would have been great the year after the sweet 16 run.
Love BB or hate him, he has been right on the cusp of sustained success many times. Don't get me wrong, he needs to sustain success, but I'm game to give him another year to make a run.
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Orange Blooded [4101]
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Re: Seeing UNCheat wear out Shaka Smart's press yesterday...
Mar 23, 2022, 3:03 PM
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On the cusp of sustained success? I believe that means the term most appropriate is "Mediocrity". Not at being contentious with you, but by the parameter you just outlined, thats where we have been.
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110%er [6153]
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The guys you mention were good shooters, they were not
Mar 18, 2022, 4:13 PM
[ in reply to Re: Seeing UNCheat wear out Shaka Smart's press yesterday... ] |
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Particularly good all around basketball players. In fact, they were pretty typical Clemson recruits no matter who our coach has been.
Oglesby was always a liability on defense. Young was way too short to be a good match-up as a defender. Rivers was a solid 4-star guy we got after he suffered a serious injury in high school and others backed off.
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110%er [9666]
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Letterman [256]
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Re: It was fun to watch.
Mar 18, 2022, 8:30 AM
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And, that's the issue. Brownell's style is "boring," but he has actually won games in the NCAAT. Purnell never did. Brownell took "Purnell's players" and won a game.
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Orange Blooded [2287]
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Re: It was fun to watch.
Mar 18, 2022, 8:35 AM
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We really don't have much to be proud of over the last 12 years when we are still talking about a coach winning a play-in game for the tournament against a team from Conference USA.
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110%er [9666]
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Exactly. A play-in game.
1
Mar 18, 2022, 8:37 AM
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We still lost in the round of 64.
And this year’s ACC tournament win was over the last place team.
Wow.
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Letterman [256]
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Re: It was fun to watch.
Mar 18, 2022, 8:44 AM
[ in reply to Re: It was fun to watch. ] |
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I'm sensing a theme with Brownell related posts. Reading comprehension is hard. I merely brought up a comparison between Purnell and Brownell.
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Orange Blooded [2287]
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Re: It was fun to watch.
Mar 18, 2022, 10:40 AM
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It's not a matter of bad reading comprehension, but rather the comparison is really weak. There is no reason to think that Purnell would not have also won a play-in game against UAB - he didn't lose very many games against teams they were clearly outmatched. His tournament losses came against more evenly matched teams from major conferences.
You're not making a decent comparison, but rather grasping for anything to say that Brownell is doing a better job than another coach could do. It's clear after 12 years that Brownell is just an average, at best, coach.
And honestly, I'm ok with Neff not firing Brownell this year, because he did make the tournament last year. If we are sitting at home after next year, I can't think of a justifiable reason for keeping him. I'm sure if we are sitting here in the same position next year though, we'll still be hearing the same tired excuse about what Purnell, or Shyatt, or Ellis, wasn't able to accomplish and how that somehow makes Brownell a better coach.
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Letterman [256]
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Re: It was fun to watch.
Mar 18, 2022, 11:16 AM
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It's definitely a matter of reading comprehension. I'm not grasping for anything. I never said Brownell is doing better than any other coach. Again, reading comprehension. My whole stance is that it's more than just a coach. I find it hard to believe that Clemson has done everything right in its basketball history, including facilities, pay, etc., EXCEPT FOR hiring a coaches. So, I think it will take more than just hiring a new coach.
I agree that next year, barring some kind of crazy injury situation, it's NCAAT or bust.
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Orange Blooded [2287]
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Re: It was fun to watch.
Mar 18, 2022, 11:55 AM
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So you are saying this statement "Brownell's style is "boring," but he has actually won games in the NCAAT. Purnell never did. Brownell took "Purnell's players" and won a game." DOES NOT imply that Brownell is doing better than another coach?
If that's the case, then I guess I do have a reading comprehension problem. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Letterman [256]
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Re: It was fun to watch.
Mar 21, 2022, 8:50 AM
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That wasn't actually my point. I understand where you could imply that. The point was that Brownell's style at Clemson has led to wins in the NCAAT whereas Purnell's style at Clemson hadn't. It's statement of fact. Could Purnell have won a game in Brownell's first season? Absolutely. My point was not that Brownell was better than another coach, but that his style seems more conducive to winning NCAAT games.
Now, the other option is that Brownell is a better coach than Purnell, but we can't have a conversation about that.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: It was fun to watch.
Mar 21, 2022, 11:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: It was fun to watch. ] |
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It's definitely a matter of reading comprehension. I'm not grasping for anything. I never said Brownell is doing better than any other coach. Again, reading comprehension. My whole stance is that it's more than just a coach. I find it hard to believe that Clemson has done everything right in its basketball history, including facilities, pay, etc., EXCEPT FOR hiring a coaches. So, I think it will take more than just hiring a new coach.
I agree that next year, barring some kind of crazy injury situation, it's NCAAT or bust.
It's strange. The people on here with the most rational takes on here get called nutjobs and brownell lovers.
It's 100% reading comprehension.
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Letterman [256]
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Re: It was fun to watch.
Mar 21, 2022, 12:22 PM
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If you even suggest Brownell should still be the coach the downvotes and pitchforks come out. I don't think I've said anything outrageous, but my pulse is low. I would love for Clemson to be great at basketball, but I recognize the challenges.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Seeing UNCheat wear out Shaka Smart's press yesterday...
Mar 18, 2022, 9:06 AM
[ in reply to Re: Seeing UNCheat wear out Shaka Smart's press yesterday... ] |
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The press worked great early in the season against overmatched teams. We would blow out average teams and every one thought we were world beaters. Then we would play a good team who knew how to pass the ball and could make a shot and we would get embarrassed.
That style of play did allow us to sign more talented but less skilled players who were easier to recruit than the skilled players who everyone wants. Seems our fans loved OP (i did too) but the truth his he had less success than CBB when it counted.
Yep I will never forget the season where we started 17-0 and didn't make the tourney. Talk about embarrassing.
People on this board still use this season as a data point as to why Purnell was such a good coach and better than brownell. 20 win season! Yay!
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: Seeing UNCheat wear out Shaka Smart's press yesterday...
Mar 21, 2022, 12:27 PM
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That was coming off not making the tournament 9 strait seasons. It was a sign of progress, which was then validated as the program made 4 strait tournaments.
This idea that Purnell was bad against good teams is wrong. They were inconsistent against good teams and usually crushed bad ones. They beat top 5 duke teams a couple of times including one in embarrassing fashion. They were so close against some #1 ranked and national championship UNC teams. They also had some inexplicable losses to mediocre ACC teams that you’re referencing.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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It worked well for his VCU teams***
Mar 18, 2022, 8:15 AM
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All-TigerNet [11428]
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Re: It worked well for his VCU teams***
Mar 18, 2022, 8:46 AM
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Yes, depends on the team. Some nattys and final 4s were won with a press type system. Depends on how smart you are using it and what type of players you have as far as bkball players. Marquette was very young at some spots. Shaka got the most of his team in his first year.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: It worked well for his VCU teams***
Mar 18, 2022, 9:03 AM
[ in reply to It worked well for his VCU teams*** ] |
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And not so much at Texas where he greatly underperformed there.
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Orange Blooded [2531]
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Yep
Mar 22, 2022, 8:44 AM
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Ollie's press was a nice device at times but in the end gave up too many easy baskets and was not built for tourneys and the half-court game that basketball ultimately is. His fatal flaw was to try to play it the entire game without choosing sectors of the game more judiciously.
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