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Replies: 34
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Player comparison
Feb 21, 2022, 10:01 AM
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Which group of players would you rather have.....
Option 1: Sharrod Ford (sr), olu balbalola (Sr), shawan Robinson (jr), akin akinbala (jr)
Option 2: Andre young (sr), tanner smith (sr), Devin booker (jr), Milton Jennings (jr), catelin baciu (jr)
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Legend [19567]
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What's the point?
Feb 21, 2022, 10:10 AM
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We're in year 12, not year 2
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: What's the point?
Feb 21, 2022, 11:21 AM
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Well I continue to hear OP left the program in great shape and that is not true. I would be fine if BB was fired after this year, but I'm tired of all the false narratives to justify his firing.
The program had talent in BB's first year, but once those seniors left, the cupboard was left bare. To me, any data from years 1-4 should not be included when discussing brownell's future.
The player comparison was what was left from the prior coaches in year 2 for Brad brownell and Oliver Purnell. If shyatt left the program in shambles, and OP left in in great shape, then why is the talent level for players remaining in year 2 nearly the same?
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: What's the point?
Feb 21, 2022, 11:37 AM
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That’s ridiculous.
Maybe only the 3 tournament seasons should count? The excuses are good enough to expunge the record of the other 9.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: What's the point?
Feb 21, 2022, 1:34 PM
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That’s ridiculous.
Maybe only the 3 tournament seasons should count? The excuses are good enough to expunge the record of the other 9.
Obviously you are not very good at reading. This thread was entitled, "Player Comparison" and not "program comparison". Are you going to answer the question?
The program was obviously in better shape, although by the time BB took over, we hadn't won an NCAA tourney game since we had Barnes. And our coach left to take a Depaul job, so it was pretty obvious this wasn't a very attractive job.
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: What's the point?
Feb 21, 2022, 1:39 PM
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“ To me, any data from years 1-4 should not be included when discussing brownell's future.”
I can read just fine.
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Legend [19567]
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Then why not look at who they brought in for those
Feb 21, 2022, 12:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: What's the point? ] |
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2nd and 3rd years. OP in year 2 brought in Mays, Hammonds and Perry, all key guys and Cheyenne Moore who transferred. Year 3 Rivers and Sykes, key guys, and Powell who transferred.
Brad brought in KJ and Hall, key guys, and Sapp, Sullivan and Coleman who all transferred. Year 3 Roper and Nnoko, solid guys, Smith a warm body, and Filer who transferred.
OP managed to bring in 4 guys who were keys to building the program. Brad 1 in KJ, and Hall who was solid. Brad did not recruit as well as OP and that's still his issue, no matter who was left from the previous staff. Mays, Hammonds, Perry and Rivers established OP. KC bolted after his junior year and Brad couldn't fill the voids in recruiting. And in year 12, it's the same song and dance
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CU Guru [1157]
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Re: What's the point?
Feb 21, 2022, 3:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: What's the point? ] |
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If years 1-4 dont count then he should've been fired after year 5.
Record: 16-15 (8-10, 9th in ACC)
Coach: Brad Brownell
PS/G: 62.7 (290th of 351)
PA/G: 62.2 (61st of 351)
SRS: 7.73 (74th of 351)
SOS: 7.18 (54th of 351)
ORtg: 99.1 (256th of 351)
DRtg: 98.3 (97th of 351)
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Orange Blooded [2287]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 21, 2022, 11:07 AM
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Flip a coin, either option would be better than what's on the team right now with the exception of PJ.
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Orange Blooded [3276]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 21, 2022, 11:11 AM
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I would take option 2 since it has 5 players. We found out back in the 90's trying to play with only 4 players is beyond difficult. 
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 21, 2022, 11:43 AM
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Option 2. It isn’t close.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 21, 2022, 1:30 PM
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Actually, it is pretty close....
Sharod Ford and Olu Balbalola > Andre Young and Tanner Smith
Catelin Baciu, Devin Booker, Milton Jennings vs. Akinbala and Shawan Robinson?
I guess you would have to give it to CB, DB, and MJ although it's really close. I'd probably rather have Akinbala over Devin Booker although that's probably a wash. Also I think Robinson was equal to if not more talented to Jennings. Baciu doesn't really count because he never really did anything.
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 21, 2022, 1:47 PM
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Young>Robinson
Smith>Babalola
Booker>Akinbala
Bachu/Jennings< Ford
Message was edited by: ClemCE09®
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 21, 2022, 2:03 PM
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Young>Robinson
Smith>Babalola
Booker>Akinbala
Bachu/Jennings< Ford
Message was edited by: ClemCE09®
I was looking at it as more Sr's vs. Jr's, but I also disagree with your list.
Robinson > Young
Smith > Balbalola
Booker vs Akinbala= Wash
Ford > Jennings/Baciu. Baciu didn't contribute and Jennings was just... not good. Ford was an NBA player
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Orange Blooded [3123]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 21, 2022, 1:42 PM
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Considering Shawan Robinson was one of my favorite Tigers of all time, option 1. It really depends on who is coaching them and what their style of play is, though.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 21, 2022, 2:00 PM
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Considering Shawan Robinson was one of my favorite Tigers of all time, option 1. It really depends on who is coaching them and what their style of play is, though.
Shawan Robinson was great and one of my favorite players of all time as well. He went to my high school and his dad was the bball coach. His mom was my science teacher and his dad was my gym coach. They won a state championship his senior year. The team was stacked. They also had Anthony Richardson, a McDonalds All American that went to FSU
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All-TigerNet [11432]
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easy 2...
Feb 21, 2022, 2:50 PM
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Its not OP's fault that Brad couldn't develop that last class highly, or they didn't pan out.
Of course you are going to chose Brad here.
Tanner Smith and Young were actually good college players, but did not have a lot of support they senior season.
Devin Booker was third team All-ACC.
I agree with Striperfan. But KC was at Clemson four years, and didn't leave as a junior.
Again you look at what a Coach did his last four years. OP won over twenty games each of his last four year, and Brad has won just 20 games once and will have a losing season in one of those last four years. I will say again, OP left the wrong way and that was his bad choice, but he did a better job than Brad no question about it.
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All-TigerNet [11432]
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: easy 2...
Feb 21, 2022, 3:30 PM
[ in reply to easy 2... ] |
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Brad couldn't develop them? Lmao. Yeah if Purnell stayed, Milton Jennings would have been in the NBA.
I know it's hard to read, but I actually didn't choose one as they are pretty much even. You choosing OP is very predictable though.
Tanner smith and Andre young were both very average ACC role players, but you are right, they did not have a lot of support.....because of OP's recruiting his last few years and because of the timing of when he left. We rarely recruit instant impact freshman, we had no Sophs, our juniors underwhelmed, and we had 2 acc role players their SR year.
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All-TigerNet [11432]
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Re: easy 2...
Feb 21, 2022, 3:36 PM
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Milton was a good role player, but NBA I doubt it, but you don't know? OP did better job with developing bigmen. Look at Mays, T Booker, and Sykes, and also Jerai Grant for three seasons, and Played really well for Brad his last season. I give Brad some credit for that, but I believe OP as Striperfan mentioned was better recruiter in finding guys he knew could be developed.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: easy 2...
Feb 21, 2022, 9:20 PM
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Why do you constantly bring up ray Sykes, but not sidy djitte or Landry noko? All had very similar career progression.
Also look at how Jerai grant improved the most between his junior season. Wonder why that is??
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: easy 2...
Feb 21, 2022, 10:06 PM
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Jerai led the team in FG% as a sophomore. He played behind Mayes for 2 years and then was second fiddle to Booker since we ran 4 around 1 through Trevor his Jr year. It’s not as much he improved drastically between Jr and Sr year, it’s that he was finally the featured big man. This is clear since his blocks and rebounds per 40 min are about the same. However, his FGA went up 6 per 40 min under Brownell.
Our lack of big man development showed when a guy like Devin Booker never developed a basic drop step with Brownell and Winecki coaching him for 3 years.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: easy 2...
Feb 21, 2022, 11:20 PM
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His free throw percentage also went up nearly 12 percentage points too. Was that brownell?
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: easy 2...
Feb 22, 2022, 8:13 AM
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Sure count that as development even though his FG% dropped 6%.
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All-TigerNet [11432]
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Smith and Young were double figure scorers their senior....
Feb 21, 2022, 3:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: easy 2... ] |
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Season. Maybe Brad could have brought in some better talent his second season to help them. Again, they were not meant to be top scorers. They were role players not key cogs.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Smith and Young were double figure scorers their senior....
Feb 21, 2022, 11:15 PM
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Season. Maybe Brad could have brought in some better talent his second season to help them. Again, they were not meant to be top scorers. They were role players not key cogs.
Interesting. So you are expecting Brad brownell to recruit go to scorers as freshman in his second class? Do you realize how rare it is that Clemson has a stud freshman basketball player?
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Legend [19567]
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Brad has yet to recruit an impact freshman
Feb 21, 2022, 10:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: easy 2... ] |
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in 12 years. OP had Hammonds, Rivers, T-Book and Stitt who all were impact freshmen.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Brad has yet to recruit an impact freshman
Feb 21, 2022, 11:31 PM
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You aren't wrong.... Purnell recruited better than brownell. That's why but was so frustrating that he couldn't win a tourney game and only won ACC tourney games in 2 out of 7 seasons (brownell has been just as bad in acc tourney)
You missed some impact freshman under brownell. Donte grantham, and al Amir dawes. Also, wasn't elimthomas technically a freshmen when he enrolled?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 22, 2022, 6:59 AM
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2 all day, not even close. OP recruited players that got his style and system, it’s not his fault Brad didn’t know what to do with them. Not to mention you scream and cry about OPs last years of recruiting, EVERY. SINGLE. POST. This isn’t football, basketball always has been and will be a 2 year cycle/window, he didn’t leave the cupboard bare, he left an NCAAT team and no one knows what the class would have looked like the year he left and beyond. You got to drop this “point” you poorly try to make, it just shows you have no idea how basketball recruiting works and how classes effect the future. OP also gets the benefit of the doubt that if the players he recruited for his system didn’t pan out that he would make it work, he had a proven culture, style and had built a consistent product that was competing and finishing in the top 5 in the league. Brad is consistent as well, consistently mediocre and doing less with less and doing less with more. I have no idea why you always attack OP for no reason, all he did was turn Clemson into a fun and successful program, was his mistress your wife or something? It feels super personal when you talk about him.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 22, 2022, 7:00 AM
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I’m being facetious obviously, no one thinks your wife had an affair with OP, just don’t understand your constant attacks on him and his recruiting.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 22, 2022, 9:06 AM
[ in reply to Re: Player comparison ] |
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2 all day, not even close. OP recruited players that got his style and system, it’s not his fault Brad didn’t know what to do with them. Not to mention you scream and cry about OPs last years of recruiting, EVERY. SINGLE. POST. This isn’t football, basketball always has been and will be a 2 year cycle/window, he didn’t leave the cupboard bare, he left an NCAAT team and no one knows what the class would have looked like the year he left and beyond. You got to drop this “point” you poorly try to make, it just shows you have no idea how basketball recruiting works and how classes effect the future. OP also gets the benefit of the doubt that if the players he recruited for his system didn’t pan out that he would make it work, he had a proven culture, style and had built a consistent product that was competing and finishing in the top 5 in the league. Brad is consistent as well, consistently mediocre and doing less with less and doing less with more. I have no idea why you always attack OP for no reason, all he did was turn Clemson into a fun and successful program, was his mistress your wife or something? It feels super personal when you talk about him.
You are wrong on multiple accounts. The reason I bring this up somewhat frequently (like 5 times over the course of a year) is because our ridiculous fans salivate over OP, despite him having basically no accomplishments at Clemson. He never won an ncaa tourney game, he only won ACC tourney games in 2 out of 7 seasons (brownell about the same) and he left the team in the middle of the night without saying anything. He got by with recruiting and diamond in the rough type players. Good for him. His luck with diamond in the rough players did not continue at DePaul. His best season at Clemson featured an ACC that was down even further than they are this year. Only 3 teams made the tourney. He only beat 1 ranked team all year and we got upset as a 5 seed in the tourney. We also had a few bad losses that year. Wow what a stud.
Brownell's last 4 years (not including this year) were significantly better than OP's last 4 years in terms of ncaa tourney wins, ranked wins, SOS, ACC conference win %, etc. it's actually not even close.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 22, 2022, 9:30 AM
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I guess we can agree to disagree on what we think is “success”, being one and done in the NCAAT and consistently having competitive teams feels successful to me and I enjoyed watching it. It also takes time to get over that hump sometimes, it took dabo about 6 years to take the next step. It stinks how he left for sure, but I would have loved to see what 12 years of OP looked like, as for DePaul, that program was and still is a dumpster fire, think Vandy football, no one has succeeded there this century.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 22, 2022, 9:43 AM
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I guess we can agree to disagree on what we think is “success”, being one and done in the NCAAT and consistently having competitive teams feels successful to me and I enjoyed watching it. It also takes time to get over that hump sometimes, it took dabo about 6 years to take the next step. It stinks how he left for sure, but I would have loved to see what 12 years of OP looked like, as for DePaul, that program was and still is a dumpster fire, think Vandy football, no one has succeeded there this century.
Yes and it's sad that a coach would leave our basketball program to go to a program similar to "vandy football". Just think about that for a second and you will realize why it's tough to find success at Clemson.
According to your criteria, I'm guessing you were pumped about last season? We beat a record 8 NCAA tourney teams in a short season. We played some really good basketball and unfortunately went 1 and done in the tourney. Before this year, in our prior 4 seasons, we have been 5th in the ACC in wins. I'd say that's pretty competitive.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 22, 2022, 10:05 AM
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I really was last year, even the year we got robbed of an NCAAT appearance I was pumped, I think it was 2014ish, we won over 20 games, 10 ACC games and were pretty good and weren’t even close to the NCAAT for reasons beyond me. There is a stigma and bias about our program, I can live with that because our coach can’t control that, but if we consistently had seasons like that we would gain some of that benefit of the doubt and have a good program. The sad thing is instead of that being the baseline that is one of our better seasons in recent history, and followed that season up one game over .500. The toughest part about the last 12 years is the extremes from year to year and no consistency, which is why we are not “building” a program and are just a floundering program, kids don’t want to be a part of that, if you can show them where we were, where we and and where we are going— that’s an easy sell, we just don’t have that now. That’s what made OP better, he had 4 straight 20+ win seasons and had results and a future to sell, Brad can barely be .500, make NCAAT the next year and then finish below .500 all in a 3 year span, he’s consistently inconsistent? It’s why we don’t recruit well currently and have no identity IMO, but what do I know.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Player comparison
Feb 22, 2022, 10:14 AM
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I am on the fence about firing brownell after this season with a slight lean to firing him. We are not seeing the recruiting uptick that we should have seen with the little John renovation.
This season has been tough. We have talent, and have looked great at points this year. We were razor thin depth wise at the beginning of the year and we lost our second best player. Also pj hall has not been 100% all year. He hasn't practiced all year and isn't in basketball shape. I remember thinking in the st. Bonnie and WVU games, in the second half PJ Hall was incredibly winded and kept getting taken out.
We have been pretty unlucky this year, but we need to recruit the depth to make up for that.
I will say though our last 4 years have been pretty consistent. The wheels fell off this year.
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