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YOUR BALANCE
Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid...
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Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid...


May 5, 2021, 1:56 PM

what is that belief based on?

Consider:

He currently makes $2,185,248 a year, which ranks 52nd nationally based on this data from 3/9/21:

https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/

His salary ranks 10th in the ACC.

His contract was signed in 2018, which was a substantial raise from the sub-$2 million he was getting yearly prior to that.

Comparing Brad's salary to his national and ACC rank, we see the following over the last four years:

2017-2018: 25-10 (11-7), 3rd in ACC, NCAA Tournament (Sweet 16)
Our final RPI was 11th (http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/weeklyrpi/2018MBBrpi1.html)

2018-2019: 20-14 (9-9), 8th in ACC, NIT (Second Round)
Our final RPI was 45th (http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/weeklyrpi/2019MBBrpi1.html)

2019-2020: 16-15 (9-11), 9th in ACC (postseason canceled due to COVID-19)
Our final RPI was 110th (https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/rpi-ranking/rpi-rating-by-team?date=2020-03-12)

2020-2021: 16-8 (10-6), 5th in ACC, NCAA Tournament (Round of 64)
Our final RPI was 21st (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/rankings/rpi/)

Over these four seasons, our average ACC finish was 6.25, and our average RPI was 46.75.

Based on his salary, Brad should have us 10th on average in the ACC, which he has greatly exceeded with the average finish of 6.25. And using RPI, we should be ranked 52nd on average and we have ranked 46.75.

Let's look at recruiting. Over the same four year span, here is our team recruiting ranking each year according to 247Sports:

2018: 62nd (https://247sports.com/college/clemson/Season/2018-Basketball/Commits/)
2019: 43rd (https://247sports.com/college/clemson/Season/2019-Basketball/Commits/)
2020: 21st (https://247sports.com/college/clemson/Season/2020-Basketball/Commits/)
2021: 57th (https://247sports.com/college/clemson/Season/2021-Basketball/Commits/)

Our average recruiting class is 45.75. Again, this puts him above his salary ranking of 52nd. For 2022, we currently have the 26th ranked class according to 247Sports.

There are other ways to evaluate Brad's national rank for salary, but I felt that RPI was the most fair (though certainly not perfect) since it accounts for a wide variety of metrics.

There are also other things we could discuss, such as graduation success rate, team GPA, community involvement, etc., all of which would put Brad well above his 52nd highest salary, but I don't feel that these metrics are as important as success on the court.

For those who believe that Brad is overpaid, what is that belief based on? I see a bunch of posts saying that he's overpaid, but nothing to back it up. So please, share what your thought process is.

I personally find it hard to be upset with his salary, given the fact that he outperforms his pay on both the national and ACC level, recruits better than his salary would suggest, and has run a clean program with excellent student-athlete conduct both on the court and in the classroom, as well as in the community. He has accomplished this at a school that has a poor basketball history, and does not have the administrative or fan support many other schools have.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid...


May 5, 2021, 2:08 PM



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"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


What are your thoughts on his salary?


May 5, 2021, 3:17 PM

Was that gif intended to draw a parallel to the nearly impossible job Brad has to succeed at Clemson as a result of the subpar support for basketball?

If so, you nailed it.

P.S. He was fouled.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Well...did he make the free throws?***


May 5, 2021, 3:22 PM



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Re: Well...did he make the free throws?***


May 13, 2021, 12:30 PM

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2024 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-classof1994.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid...


May 5, 2021, 7:27 PM [ in reply to Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid... ]

I've watched that a million times now, and still can not figure out how he blocked his own shot.

badge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I have a slow-mo version of that gif if it would help.


May 5, 2021, 8:37 PM

.

2024 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-classof1994.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


Re: I have a slow-mo version of that gif if it would help.


May 7, 2021, 7:47 AM

am already slow, you slow it down anymore and I will never make it through the entire thing.

badge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I’m so slow...


May 7, 2021, 9:19 AM

I’d have to speed up to stop.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpgringofhonor-francismarion.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


I don't get it.


May 13, 2021, 12:32 PM

.

2024 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-classof1994.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


Thanks for axing. Hear it is fren.


May 13, 2021, 12:39 PM



2024 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-classof1994.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid...


May 5, 2021, 2:15 PM

I think "Judge Keller" is really Brad Brownell. Sakes alive man.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

What are your thoughts on his salary?***


May 5, 2021, 3:15 PM



2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I’ll jump in.


May 5, 2021, 3:20 PM

He makes a boat load of money, by any measure.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Great, I'm happy for him!


May 5, 2021, 4:32 PM

Aren't you?

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Wait. I thought you weren’t happy about his salary.***


May 5, 2021, 8:26 PM



badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I have not complained about his salary.


May 6, 2021, 6:19 PM

Plenty of other people here have though.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Good research


May 5, 2021, 2:40 PM

I'm not the biggest Brownell fan, but he certainly isn't overpaid. I also understand that to bring in someone else, we would probably pay them more than Brownell and the chance they would do worse would be higher than them doing better. Lot of folks around here are willing to roll those dice, but idk if I am, especially considering the other side of the coin is the football team being in the playoffs every year.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Im sorry Mrs. Brownell, I am for real!!


May 5, 2021, 2:40 PM

Outkast

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I think Brownell is properly paid,


May 5, 2021, 2:48 PM

given he makes a mediocre salary as compared to other coaches from the so-called "power conferences". We put up mediocre results, so, it seems fair to me.

I just find it odd that you included 2017-2018 in your analysis since the contract was received in July 2018.

If you don't include 2017-2018 (since that season was before the new contract was received) the average RPI becomes 58.7.

Then, even by your own preferred metric, Brownell is slightly overpaid.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

The contract was largely based on our Sweet 16 run


May 5, 2021, 3:07 PM

in 2017-2018, so I felt that it was fair to include it.

If you have a different metric you prefer for analyzing salary on a national level, please share it.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I think Brownell is properly paid,


May 7, 2021, 2:17 PM [ in reply to I think Brownell is properly paid, ]

Haven't you learned yet that Judge only posts things that help his argument, regardless of whether or not they are relevant or valid? He continually cherry picks stats and ignores the whole picture.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Since you want to base this on market value...


May 5, 2021, 2:51 PM

Tell us...

What other places are trying to hire him away from us?

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

How do you know no one else has tried to hire him away?


May 5, 2021, 3:12 PM

Schools contact other coaches all the time, often through agents, and it is never made public.

For example, Dabo just recently mentioned that he has had some good offers to coach elsewhere in the past, but chose to stay at Clemson. We didn't know that he was contacted by anyone else, because it was never made public. Based on the media not reporting anything, we would be left to assume that no one else wanted Dabo.

If you don't think anyone else has contacted Brad about their head coaching vacancy since he's been at Clemson, then you are allowing your own bias to influence your view.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


So... no one. That’s okay!***


May 5, 2021, 3:20 PM



badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Wrong... info has been around about Dabo being contacted


May 5, 2021, 4:27 PM [ in reply to How do you know no one else has tried to hire him away? ]

for other coaching opportunities, the specifics of what those opportunities were are much less known so that's a false equivalency...

If Brad has been contacted, he would have done himself well to consider them if they were on par or better than Clemson. I hope that you are not using this as a misguided attempt to imply that Brad has been contacted by such programs. That would be a disingenuousness that I wouldn't expect from you... Barnes left for Tenn, OP left for DePaul, please share (if your know) any opportunity that BB may have been able to pursue that was not a step or two down from Clemson...

As for his salary, I make it a point to not count other people's money or have any opinion about how much one earns unless there is malfeasance happening on their part. I blame the administration for any issues with a coach not achieving bench marks worthy of expectations... If a coach agrees to a $1 annual salary but didn't achieve any bench marks, it's on the administration to be sure the coach lives up to expectations...

The ultimate measure of success includes bench marks related to wins, along with grad rates and all else that is expected of a student athlete. But wins cannot now take a back seat to those things that exemplify good character and citizenship. A clean program BETTER BE a given, pushing players to achieve academically BETTER BE a given, pushing players to be good citizens BETTER BE a given; other wise, Just Win Baby, because nothing else matters...

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I am not aware of Dabo ever being officially contacted


May 5, 2021, 4:40 PM

about a specific job. All we know is what Dabo has said on a couple of occasions during the past decade, which is that he has been contacted about other jobs. There were no specifics given from what I recall.

And that's exactly my point. The fact that Dabo was contacted about a job is only public knowledge because Dabo made it public. If he hadn't said anything, we wouldn't know about it. But that certainly doesn't mean that no one else would like to have Dabo as their coach.

Typically, information about a coach interviewing for another job, or being offered another job, is only made public by that coach or his agent in order to start a bidding war.

It seems that you and others expect Brad to come out and say that he has been contacted about other jobs, and if he doesn't say anything then the assumption is that he hasn't been contacted. I find that to be a really ridiculous conclusion to draw, especially since Brad has gotten substantial raises since becoming our coach.

If people want to assume that we are the only school who would like to have Brownell as a coach (which is a ridiculous assumption), then hopefully they are also thankful that he outperforms his salary using multiple different metrics for measuring job performance.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Coaching contacts are all back channel dealings


May 6, 2021, 10:08 AM

these days for the most desired coaches. Don't be cavalier, schools or their search firm make contact with the agent first to gauge interest and there are discussions had before going down the road of negotiations. Where in there does the public get any info about a coach being considered is only as good as a reporters sources.

When schools release or allow to be released a list of potential candidates, those candidates agents are contacted... but the coach (in good faith) can honestly say "I have not been contacted about that job".

The same way that you can be so sure that we only know that Dabo was contacted is because Dabo said so, has to be the same way that we cannot assume that any school may have contacted Brownell, because Brownell has not said so... you're just as ridiculous as you claim everyone else is because you want the silence to not be indicative of contact for Brownell, but the silence to be indicative of Dabo.

Argue all you want the merits of other schools contacting Brownell or not, but until you or anyone confirms any opportunity he may have had was on par or better than Clemson, it can reasonably be assumed that the offer was not even on par with Clemson... another question would be, why didn't he consider any offer that was better than Clemson?? That's professional misjudgment at best, especially given the state of support of the program (according to you). What Dabo has built in football is his own Mecca, nothing is going to be better than that.

But what has Brownell built that equates to having built something on his own that is considered the best of the best among peers and analysts of his industry??

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Arguing about whether Brad was or wasn’t contacted about jobs


May 6, 2021, 6:23 PM

is a poor attempt by those who are anti-Brownell to distract from the argument about his performance relative to his salary.

I don’t personally care if our coaches have been contacted by other schools. All I care about is that they are performing well at Clemson and moving their respective program forward.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


YOU consistently post that BB isn't overpaid and in


May 7, 2021, 6:26 PM

a lot of instances argue that he is underpaid, like a lot of your comments in this thread...

As for his performance relative to salary, that's a strawman argument because he hasn't shown that he is deserving of more than the average.

Being pro-success for Clemson basketball does not make me anti-Brownell; you sure are good at making assumptions rather than being observant. I've been observant of Brownell, and I don't believe that more money invested in the program to the levels of any program you can name or increasing his pay is going to make him a better recruiter and head coach.

Brad has done what he can do for Clemson, DRad or whoever the AD is will decide when a change needs to be made. I only believe he has reached his peak here, and that the right change will be better. If Brad makes a change for the better that is also better for the program, i'm all for it, but 11 seasons should be enough time show the best that you can be. I don't have to agree that what he has accomplished in his 11 seasons with whatever support he has been given is as good as it can be, because we have seen what is possible with even less, and it has been greater than what he has shown with more...

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

LOL at your comment that his performance relative to salary is a straw man argument.


May 8, 2021, 10:51 AM

How do you propose we evaluate the appropriateness of his salary if not by performance?

I know, we can just continue to let the TaterNet contingent here who says “he sucks” or “he’s average” or “he’s a bum” to provide an objective measurement. How does that sound?

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


NONE of us in the TaterNet contingent are going to have


May 10, 2021, 3:36 PM

slim to none influence on what Brownell is paid, and all it does for us is make for over exuberant discussions.

As I previously stated, if he's paid $1 annually but not meeting expectations, he's being paid too much. DRad recently said that he hit the marks, so he's going to be the coach... not much else else matters beyond what DRad or Clements has to say about him staying or going.

We can have our opinions, but just like that fecal matter exit orifice, everybody's got one...

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

If we are only allowed to discuss things here that we


May 10, 2021, 3:42 PM

have direct influence on, then we aren't going to have a lot to talk about.

But that's beside the point. You seemed to have ignored my question, so I'll ask it again:

How do you propose we evaluate the appropriateness of his salary if not by performance?

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


...and I repeat...


May 10, 2021, 7:47 PM

the discussion of his pay is of no concern of mine... my opinion focuses on performance relative to success, not performance relative to his pay...

I REPEAT... even if he is only paid $1 annually but is not meeting expectations, that's a problem and corrective actions have to be taken even though he is literally costing us nothing in salary...

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Okay.


May 11, 2021, 2:10 PM

I think we're done here.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Wrong... info has been around about Dabo being contacted


May 6, 2021, 10:56 PM [ in reply to Wrong... info has been around about Dabo being contacted ]

Barnes left for Texas.....the went to TENN.

Brownlee is mediocre at best....shouldn't have lasted as long as he has. As long as he is here, we will be exactly the same, mediocre.

Go Tigers!!!

military_donation.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Congratulations, your post completely ignored the discussion.


May 8, 2021, 10:49 AM

Continuing to post opinions without any facts or data to back it up accomplishes nothing.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid...


May 5, 2021, 2:51 PM



2024 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


I'd like to hear your thoughts on his salary.


May 5, 2021, 3:15 PM

You complain about him a lot. Do you think he is overpaid, underpaid, or paid fairly? And why do you feel that way?

Now is your chance to show your work. I showed mine above.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I'd like to hear your thoughts on his salary.


May 5, 2021, 3:51 PM

Brown L should be paying us to coach here.

Here's my work.



It all checks out. Prove me wrong.

2024 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


I'm not at all surprised by your answer.***


May 5, 2021, 4:40 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


So why do you think Brownell's teams perform so much


May 5, 2021, 4:56 PM

better during contract and/or hot seat seasons for him yet fall short and underperform following his pay raise, contract extension, and guarantee increase periods? This has been a pattern over his tenure here. Do you not feel a little ripped off by him for that? Cause I sure do.

Like you I believed in Brad. At the time I thought he was a solid hire, and once upon a time used stats and records and such as you do (not near your frequency or volume though - that's unparalleled) to combat the naysayers frustrated with boring basketball, disappointing finishes, and an overall malaise in the program. Finally, after one too many maddening no-shows it began to occur to me that Brownell just lacks a certain something - a rhythm, a flow, a feel - hard to pinpoint and something that stats don't reveal - that does not translate into consistent success, and isn't something that is going to improve with facilities, or pay, or anything really.

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Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid...


May 5, 2021, 3:33 PM [ in reply to Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid... ]




My take, is that the all-father of us sentient burner accounts actually brings data ... or at least does not take FUTURE income potential and apply it to previous years.


I thin Brad's base pay is high(ish), but high is appropriate considering that Clemson's media market does not prioritize basketball (thus lower earning potential from media deals unlike some other schools) and that the "incentive" % in lower because you have other programs investing 150-200% more to accomplish the same goal.

And the OP disapproving is about someone missing the obvious while attempting the dunk. All-father only cranks the 3pts because of point-per-possession stats.

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Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid...


May 5, 2021, 5:34 PM



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Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid...


May 5, 2021, 3:05 PM

I have not seen anyone on here today talking about Coach Brownell's salary except JK.
Just another opportunity for him to start an argument.

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Do you care to weigh in on the topic of Brownell's salary


May 5, 2021, 3:13 PM

or are you just here to complain about me?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


We are setting up a time delay fuse.


May 5, 2021, 3:15 PM [ in reply to Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid... ]

https://www.tigernet.com/clemson-forum/message/re-are-we-paying-brad-enough-28911365#28911365


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Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid...


May 5, 2021, 3:27 PM



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Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid...


May 5, 2021, 3:39 PM



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Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid...


May 5, 2021, 3:37 PM

Nearly all college head coaches are overpaid. In my grumpiest old man voice - "there is no sense in a ball coach making that much money!"

I really don't care what Clemson pays its coaches as long as they can afford it and the coach wins. Brownell did that enough this year to continue to be our coach next year. Next year doesn't really look like it's going to be great right now, but who knows what will happen at this point. Time to move on to a new topic for a few months. :)

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So...


May 5, 2021, 4:08 PM

Is he doing a good job despite poor support, or is he not doing a good job because of poor support? I’m confused.


Message was edited by: Francis Marion®


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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


He's doing a good job despite subpar support


May 5, 2021, 4:43 PM

but would likely do even better with good support.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


So pay him more and we can expect better results?***


May 5, 2021, 4:45 PM



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"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


I’d start by giving him an assistant coach budget that isn’t below the national average.***


May 6, 2021, 6:24 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Which assistants would you let go...


May 7, 2021, 6:46 AM

if more money was available to hire improved replacements?




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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Hmmm...good question. I think he’s gonna be stumped on this one.

1

May 7, 2021, 9:32 AM

Surely he doesn’t think giving the current coaches more money will magically make them coach better.

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I don’t have a problem with any specific ones.


May 8, 2021, 10:58 AM [ in reply to Which assistants would you let go... ]

They are all good coaches respective to their pay grade.

My point is that a higher budget for assistants would allow Brad to go get that ace recruiter from another quality program, rather than having to get someone from a smaller/mid-major program. Or if he felt that he needed an offensive whiz, he could go get him. Currently, he is limited in who he can get because of the salary.

For example, Kentucky paid their top assistant over $800,000 in 2017 (Kenny Payne). I don’t expect us to pay someone that much, but let’s not forget that it took extremely high assistant coach salaries for our football program to see the kind of success we wanted to have.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


So if we had more money you would...


May 9, 2021, 4:39 AM

keep the assistants we have? Do we need to hire additional staff with the extra money?

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


He has no idea. Only complaints and excuses.***

1

May 10, 2021, 6:03 PM



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I love that JK completely ignored a rational post. I guess


May 13, 2021, 7:09 PM [ in reply to So if we had more money you would... ]

it didn't fit their agenda....

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"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


More money won’t make CBB a better coach, but...


May 5, 2021, 5:26 PM [ in reply to He's doing a good job despite subpar support ]

it will allow us to upgrade our assistants. Better assistants result in a better overall program, see football. Despite that, statistically CBB has done a good job by doing more with less. Is this right?

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: More money won’t make CBB a better coach, but...


May 5, 2021, 7:46 PM

also, more money will bring in better-Looking assistants, and that is one of the most important aspects of coaching

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Re: More money won’t make CBB a better coach, but...


May 5, 2021, 9:07 PM


also, more money will bring in better-Looking assistants, and that is one of the most important aspects of coaching



Agreed. Huge opportunity to upgrade over the fat one that just left.

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Re: More money won’t make CBB a better coach, but...


May 6, 2021, 9:36 AM [ in reply to Re: More money won’t make CBB a better coach, but... ]

I don't know about better looking, but better named would certainly help! Who would want to play for a #### Bender?

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Re: More money won’t make CBB a better coach, but...


May 6, 2021, 9:53 AM



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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: More money won’t make CBB a better coach, but...


May 6, 2021, 10:12 AM



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Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


Could you please just try and support these coaches?***


May 6, 2021, 11:29 AM



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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


This is a valid point...


May 6, 2021, 10:53 AM [ in reply to Re: More money won’t make CBB a better coach, but... ]

if you were the mama of a high-profile recruit, which would you rather have walk in your living room -- a coach who looks like UVA's Tony Bennett, or a coach who looks like Syracuse's Jim Boeheim?

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Aspiring member of the TigerNet Sewer Dwellers


Re: This is a valid point...


May 6, 2021, 10:55 AM

It depends, how big is their Adidas bag... and does it come with McD fries...



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couple threads below you says CU golf 1 seed


May 5, 2021, 6:20 PM

Soccer is good, both, softball good. Football extraordinary

Do you think we will ever see CU basketball 1 seed ?

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um, what's your point


May 5, 2021, 7:38 PM

... ? Ever heard of "less is more"?

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$2,185,248 a year, which ranks 52nd nationally...


May 5, 2021, 7:55 PM

...sounds about right given the performance metrics you cited. I don't think a WHOLE lot of folks are upset about what he makes, but certainly are upset with the end results. Are you suggesting he's underpaid? If that's not your point, it appears you're suggesting we should pay more if we expect better results. So, should we pay Brad more? Or is he fairly compensated given the metrics? I agree that he is not over-paid by any stretch.

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"When I was 6 my Mother let me have a kitten. It died. Don't send prayers, a TU is better." - tugalooriver circa 2022


Based on the fact that no other school would pay


May 5, 2021, 9:36 PM

Him 1/2 that

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That’s a ridiculous assertion.***


May 6, 2021, 6:26 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: That’s a ridiculous assertion.***


May 6, 2021, 6:29 PM

He doesn’t deserve a dime more!

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Then name one that would pay him that much right now.

1

May 7, 2021, 7:01 AM [ in reply to That’s a ridiculous assertion.*** ]

I think it’s correct because the only schools that may take him would be “mid-majors” who can only pay their coach less than $1 Million.

You are correct that Brad could easily get another college head coaching job. But...he would be making about $500k at the new job.

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Re: So, are you Brownell's agent? You sure sound like one.


May 6, 2021, 10:06 AM

That's my theory and I'm sticking with it.

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Screw Calford.


whatever he makes he owes you a salary for what you


May 6, 2021, 11:10 AM

do for him.

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I’m not sure he’s making CBB any friends.***


May 6, 2021, 11:28 AM



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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


or Clemson Basketball in general.***


May 6, 2021, 11:53 AM



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good point


May 6, 2021, 12:47 PM [ in reply to I’m not sure he’s making CBB any friends.*** ]

but I think the

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Yes he is overpaid for the results he delivers***


May 6, 2021, 1:48 PM



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spot on..its really that simple***


May 9, 2021, 1:28 PM



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Based on what?***


May 10, 2021, 1:05 PM [ in reply to Yes he is overpaid for the results he delivers*** ]



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


BB needs a $500K bonus


May 7, 2021, 6:15 PM

For having to deal on a daily basis with the lunatic fringe...

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Seriously.

1

May 11, 2021, 12:29 PM

Imagine how much better his job would be if no one cared about winning.

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Imagine how much better his job would be with supportive


May 11, 2021, 2:12 PM

fans who showed up to games with some semblance of consistency, rather than always making excuses as to why they won't support the team.

Imagine how much better his job would be with an administration that didn't ask him to raise most of the funds for badly needed facilities himself, and who gave him a staff budget that is actually better than average.

One can dream...

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


yeah the ###### coach is overpaid..next***


May 9, 2021, 1:27 PM



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Based on what?


May 10, 2021, 1:06 PM

Go ahead, tell us.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Based on what?


May 10, 2021, 4:09 PM

I feel like I should give credit where it’s due. You’re not the worst poster on T-Net today. Congrats.

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Re: Based on what?


May 10, 2021, 4:35 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Based on what?


May 10, 2021, 7:57 PM

I’d say he is overpaid. The weak schedule we play, about every year, should give us 6-10 wins year in , year out. The tournament takes 64/65 teams. Seeing that he is the 52 highest paid coach like you said, we ought to make the tournament most years, so he is overpaid. However, if he made it in 90% of the time and won games in the tournament, I Amy sure we would pay him more. The last salary increase was not on production in my opinion

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But roughly half of the NCAA Tournament bids go to conference tournament champions.


May 10, 2021, 8:10 PM

In reality, there are only about 35 at-large bids.

That, plus all of the high quality mid-majors these days that we didn’t used to have, arguably makes it more difficult than it has been at any point over the past 40 years for a program like Clemson to make it.

To expect a coach not paid in the top 50, with an assistant coach budget below the national average, at a school which doesn’t prioritize basketball and has a poor basketball history, to make the NCAA Tournament most every year is pretty ridiculous.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Why do you think so poorly of the staff?***

1

May 10, 2021, 8:33 PM



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Link to where I said anything critical of our assistant coaches?


May 10, 2021, 8:44 PM

I’ll wait.

In the meantime, perhaps you’ll recall the posts I’ve made in the last few days stating that Brad has assembled a good staff despite the financial restrictions in place.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


You are constantly saying the low budget (in your view)

1

May 10, 2021, 8:49 PM

for assistant coaches is a problem.

Please tell us: What is the problem, and how has it held back the program?

This is a legitimate question, because you have said a larger budget would help. So...what would improve?

I’ll wait.

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Re: But roughly half of the NCAA Tournament bids go to conference tournament champions.


May 10, 2021, 8:38 PM [ in reply to But roughly half of the NCAA Tournament bids go to conference tournament champions. ]

Getting in the tournament has nothing to do with salary. Only coaching and recruiting. The guy can’t coach in games period. He is maxed out in potential. That is like saying if we paid him more he would would win more games. That’s a joke!


Message was edited by: tigersnake1954®


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Let me make sure I’m understanding you.


May 10, 2021, 8:47 PM

You’re saying that success and NCAA Tournament appearances have nothing to do with the salary a head coach and his staff are paid. Is that correct?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Let me make sure I’m understanding you.


May 10, 2021, 8:59 PM

You said minor teams get in and they don’t top the two million mark, so yes that is what I said. Heck, Duke didn’t get in, so money doesn’t get you in. Good coaching and recruiting does. You have to play a style of ball that attracts great players.

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It seems like you’re backpedaling.


May 10, 2021, 10:32 PM

Before you seemed to be saying that salary doesn’t have anything to do with winning.

Now you’re giving me examples of a mid-major who doesn’t pay its coach a lot getting into the Big Dance, and a team that pays its coach a lot not getting in.

Do those examples you gave disprove the positive correlation between basketball expenses and basketball success? No, they don’t.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: It seems like you’re backpedaling.


May 11, 2021, 6:07 AM

Exactly my point, Judge. He’s overpaid. Enough is enough. He’s the Bowden of BB. Hire someone who puts excitement in the game for the kids and at least offers great hs players and maybe one or two will bite. Then a couple of more, then you turn the corner and become a university that they want to come to. Winning starts at the top with the head coach, sir!

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Re: It seems like you’re backpedaling.


May 11, 2021, 9:06 AM

For the love of goodness, this thread keeps going?



Lets use the Tommy Bowden example. Because it shows who follows Clemson Basketball and who does not. Anyone who says he should be fire because "he is Tommy" both did not understand the resources available for the program nor the nature of college basketball.They just see the season record in "google" and sound off.

Tommy wasn't frustrating not just because he could not win the conference or what meh, but he could not win even against lesser talent. The had top 3 level ACC facilities, a stacked trophy-room to show off. He even brought in some decent talent at time. However, if the team got gut-punched, the whole team would shut down and quit - even against Wake. If the season went sideways, well 6-6 here we come and Tommy had the resources to win it all. Tommy's teams would quit, you would see baffling coaching decisions, and he would struggle against programs with 1/2 the resources.

Brad is quite different. While I have seen really bad games (like Yale 19) I have not seen his kids quit. He generally does NOT lose to lesser teams. He coaches up and can fight toe-to-toe with some better programs. For me, that is the sign of a good coach. He is winning more with less resources and laying the foundation. However, if he starts slipping, seeing his boys quit after a bad spell, and stop dropping to lesser opponents then we move on. Heck, the 19-20 season for Brad should have been a 10 win season because the wheels were coming off... but somehow, he pulled up that team and got them to above .500. You normally don't say that 16-15 is a best coaching year, but how bad that team was early really shows how much of a lift that was for a coach.

Tommy had #2/3 level of resources in Football, picked to win the ACC, finished mid-pack of the Atlantic. Brownell has Bottom 10 level resources, picked to finish 10th, finishes 3/5. Brad has had a program that invested dead last or second behind BC for the worst available, the finishes 5-9. Clemson is normally #1 in football, in basketball, we are historically dead last. Finally, for the first time in Clemson basketball, we aren't picked to be last in conference and in that 8/9 bottom tier game. Heck, we placed higher than UNC and Duke this year. How often has that happened.

You don't build with "excitement". As much as OP made us NOT a joke, he did not build the program. You turn the concern with wins, and Brownell, as boring as he might be, is winning at a clip we have not seen in our program - all the while doing it cleanly and during an era everyone has ADIDAS.

As far as I am concerned, all coaches are overpaid, but Brad has earned his take.

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If you are going to use a random example of a coach


May 11, 2021, 2:17 PM [ in reply to Re: It seems like you’re backpedaling. ]

who isn't paid as much as Brad who makes the NCAA Tournament, and try to use that to say that Brad is paid too much, then I can use my own examples of coaches who are paid more than Brad who didn't get their teams into the NCAA Tournament and argue that he isn't paid enough.

We could play that game all day. And it isn't productive.

The bottom line is that you have decided that Brad is overpaid, and you are using flimsy evidence to support that notion, while ignoring examples that oppose your view.

Thus, there is really no point in continuing to debate this with you. I outlined a bunch of data points to support the fact that he isn't overpaid. You can disagree all you like, but unless you have valid reasons for it, all you have is an uninformed opinion.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: If you are going to use a random example of a coach


May 11, 2021, 2:18 PM

You started this thread...why?

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You don't think it's clear in my original post?


May 11, 2021, 3:50 PM

Whining about Brownell being overpaid is a recurring theme on TNet. I asked people why they think he's overpaid, and then detailed extensive examples of why it can be argued he isn't.

https://www.tigernet.com/clemson-forum/message/regarding-brad-brownell-being-overpaid-28920147


I hope that clears it up for you.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


And it’s all to distract us

1

May 11, 2021, 5:54 PM

from the lackluster product on the court.

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Oh no! You're on to me and my devious tactics!


May 12, 2021, 1:52 PM

Yes, you're right, my offseason posts on TigerNet are designed to psychologically manipulate strangers I've never met and trick them into forgetting our on-court performance, to the point that they don't even know how to find out if they wanted to know.

Guess I better stop now, my methods have no chance of working in the future!

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


But first...please answer my question that you ignored:

1

May 12, 2021, 3:49 PM

If the budget for assistant coaches became larger, what would change?

Please include which coaches on the current staff should be replaced.

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I like our coaches and am not going to disparage them


May 12, 2021, 4:10 PM

on a message board.

I suggest you look at our football program as an example of what an increased budget for assistant coaches and support staff can accomplish.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I like our coaches and am not going to disparage them


May 12, 2021, 4:11 PM

Massive cop out. You could have much easily admitted the truth, which would have been "I don't know"

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Except that's not the truth.


May 13, 2021, 10:56 AM

Try again.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Except that's not the truth.


May 13, 2021, 11:04 AM

Your lack of ability to prove otherwise is showing

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Your anti-Clemson basketball agenda is showing.***


May 13, 2021, 11:17 AM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


But we’re not allowed to compare to the football program, are we?

1

May 13, 2021, 8:27 AM [ in reply to I like our coaches and am not going to disparage them ]

Let’s do that for a minute anyway:

Did you forget again how the increased budget for football assistants first occurred?

I’ll give you a hint...
Your answer to it is usually something like, “well Brad shouldn’t have to do that.”

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Brad restructured his contract a few years ago


May 13, 2021, 11:03 AM

to allow for a higher budget for his staff. That was part of the compromise when his buyout was reduced. That was a long weekend meeting with Radakovich when they had a serious heart-to-heart after a disappointing year.

The difference is that it didn't catapult the budget for assistants to elite levels nationally or even within the conference. As we've covered, we still pay our basketball staff less than the national average.

Please, tell me what else Brad needs to do to get another budget increase to get the staff he would ideally like to get? Or even get the staff to a pay scale that is above the national average?

At what point will you and the rest of the Brownell haters acknowledge that Clemson just needs to support basketball better? Asking the coach to sacrifice his own pay to get an appropriate staff budget is what schools that don't care about basketball do.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Brad restructured his contract a few years ago


May 13, 2021, 11:08 AM

Who would be on the staff today, and who wouldn't, if Brad had more money to hand out?

You might notice that the football staff doesn't change much...the assistants receive raises because (a) we win, so they earn it, and (b) they are regularly sought after by other schools that want to hire them.

Neither of those cases is true for basketball. I don't get a raise at work because of some perceived average pay in my field...I get a raise by performing.

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You're wrong, again.


May 13, 2021, 11:17 AM

Three weeks ago, all of our basketball assistants received raises.

Reynolds Dean received a raise from $257,000 to $325,000.

Bender received a raise from $235,000 to $250,000.

We are paying the new hire, Richardson, $275,000.

These raises were based on the successful year we had last year and the hard work these coaches have put in.

To say that they didn't get raises is false. To say that we don't win is false. And to say that our coaches aren't sought after by other schools is false, since we just lost two of our assistants to other positions (which not surprisingly offered higher pay than they were getting at Clemson).

Don't you think it's sad that despite these raises our assistants just got, they are still paid below the national average? As a (supposed) Clemson fan who wants our teams to have the best chance possible to excel, doesn't that bother you?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: You're wrong, again.


May 13, 2021, 11:20 AM

So wait...I thought you said they could only get raises if they came out of Brownell's pocket?

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You aren't even going to admit that you were wrong


May 13, 2021, 11:23 AM

about our assistants not getting raises?

Interesting.

That shows that you aren't really wanting a real discussion here. Trollers gonna troll!

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: You aren't even going to admit that you were wrong


May 13, 2021, 11:28 AM

I didn't say they don't get raises. I said (a) and (b) are not true for basketball. Look at the 10 years of history to see that for yourself.

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You seem to have forgotten what you said just earlier today.


May 13, 2021, 12:23 PM

You said:

You might notice that the football staff doesn't change much...the assistants receive raises because (a) we win, so they earn it, and (b) they are regularly sought after by other schools that want to hire them.

Neither of those cases is true for basketball. I don't get a raise at work because of some perceived average pay in my field...I get a raise by performing. -clemsonbluejay


"Neither of those cases is true for basketball" shows that you are unaware that our basketball assistants do get raises (as recently as several weeks ago) and that they are sought after by other schools who want to hire them (again, two were just hired away this offseason).

You are clearly a Clemson football fan but not a Clemson basketball fan. It's painfully obvious.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: You don't think it's clear in my original post?


May 12, 2021, 11:22 AM [ in reply to You don't think it's clear in my original post? ]

I'm wondering why you care. Do you have some vested interest in his wallet?

It's been stated well in this thread several times...fans of the team care about winning. I don't care what his salary is, it doesn't impact wins or losses. Whether he is overpaid or underpaid, the product on the court will not change.

For some reason, you are more a fan of Brownell than you are a fan of Clemson basketball, which is why you care so much about his salary.

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I want all of our coaches to be paid fairly.


May 12, 2021, 2:00 PM

You should, too.

To say that you don't care what a coach is paid shows a real lack of awareness of how the industry works, and how having the right coaches in place impacts success on the court/field.

Oh, and I'm a Brad Brownell fan because he is a really good basketball coach as well as a high character individual who represents our program well. But most importantly, I'm a Brownell fan because he's the head coach of the Clemson basketball team.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I want all of our coaches to be paid fairly.


May 12, 2021, 3:43 PM



To say that you don't care what a coach is paid shows a real lack of awareness of how the industry works, and how having the right coaches in place impacts success on the court/field




No, it doesn't show that at all. We have a tenured football coach and a tenured basketball coach. If their salaries were problems, after of a decade for each of them, then I'd care. Dabo keeps getting raises because he's producing. Brownell is being paid plenty or he would have left. That's why, at this stage of his tenure, it's a non-factor. We don't need to give him a raise to retain him.

When salary will matter again is the day we move to replace him.

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I haven't seen a single post here saying that Brownell


May 12, 2021, 4:12 PM

should get a raise right now.

The recent discussion here regarding basketball coaching salaries has centered on our assistants, which are paid below the national average.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I haven't seen a single post here saying that Brownell


May 12, 2021, 4:24 PM

The horse is dead, Judge. You can't even come up with one thing you'd do differently if we had more money for the assistants. But keep saying it needs to happen...

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It doesn't matter what I would do differently.


May 13, 2021, 11:10 AM

As I said, I'm not going to single out individual coaches as being a problem or a liability. I'm sorry if you equate that to me not having ideas about what I would like to see changed.

Even if I did do that, you would still continue to criticize our program, our coaches, and even me personally just to keep up your anti-Brownell crusade. It's clear that nothing is going to change your mind, so why bother?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Based on what?


May 10, 2021, 7:57 PM [ in reply to Re: Based on what? ]

I guess we can agree to disagree.

Message was edited by: tigersnake1954®


Message was edited by: tigersnake1954®


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He's one of, if not the best Self Salesman in coaching.


May 10, 2021, 8:59 PM

And #### lucky to have a squire like you by his side.

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Re: He's one of, if not the best Self Salesman in coaching.


May 11, 2021, 10:28 PM

Hopefully, he is motivated to win consistently now like never before. A good coach can become a great coach with a few changes!

Let’s go Brad, reevaluate everything into success!

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We keep getting better & better everyday, in every way!
“The only disability is a bad Attitude” Dabo Swinney!!
Let’s Go Tigers!


My Goodness, can this thread just die already...


May 12, 2021, 12:18 AM

...Give it a rest lol!


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"When I was 6 my Mother let me have a kitten. It died. Don't send prayers, a TU is better." - tugalooriver circa 2022


Re: Regarding Brad Brownell being overpaid...


May 12, 2021, 5:01 PM

Congrats Judge, I think you have made this basketball the longest thread ever (outside of debate about the proper spelling of "moran")

So here is a Clemson white dude actually dunking



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So I would assume with the transfers of Prosper and Lynn


May 13, 2021, 7:11 PM

that the 2020 recruiting rankings should have a major asterisk by it?

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"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


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