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Orange Blooded [3371]
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Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 4, 2021, 8:57 AM
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Coaches, all-time?
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Orange Blooded [4409]
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Tates Locke***
Jun 4, 2021, 9:02 AM
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: Tates Locke***
Jun 4, 2021, 9:27 AM
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Tates Locke was a great defensive minded coach who mentored Bobby Knight, who mentored Coach K. His teams were some of the best Clemson has ever had; unfortunately, they also put us on probation.
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Scout Team [171]
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Re: Tates Locke***
Jun 5, 2021, 9:32 AM
[ in reply to Tates Locke*** ] |
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Caught in the Net....read it.
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110%er [7943]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 4, 2021, 9:31 AM
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Which coach won the most games as a Clemson coach? Winning is the goal so that should be as good a metric as any...
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 4, 2021, 9:38 AM
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Yes, the simple minded answer. Never mind the caliber of opponents, how many games were played, or how long they coached at Clemson. Just who won the most games - derp.
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Legend [16121]
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Where's your list?***
Jun 4, 2021, 1:03 PM
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110%er [7943]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 5, 2021, 6:37 AM
[ in reply to Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball ] |
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Yes, the simple minded answer. Never mind the caliber of opponents, how many games were played, or how long they coached at Clemson. Just who won the most games - derp.
Typical coot. Lots of words but no answer
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CU Guru [1620]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 4, 2021, 9:42 AM
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Judge Keller
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All-In [43998]
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POTD!
Jun 4, 2021, 11:08 PM
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CU Guru [1427]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 4, 2021, 9:56 AM
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Rick Barnes
Brad Brownell
Bill Foster
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110%er [5676]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 4, 2021, 10:12 AM
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WIthout looking at records I would say:
Rick Barnes
Cliff Ellis
Oliver Purnell
Brad Brownell
Bill Foster
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All-In [48152]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 4, 2021, 10:36 AM
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Most excellent list and observations. I would squeeze tates in there somewhere. But Ellis didn't get the respect he deserved. The teams he had, today some of those teams would receive nit bids but he didn't. His strength of schedule was tough.
As viztiz says, short sighted just to look at wins and losses. Irks me that ppl including DRad cite that for support of Brad. Talk about zero support and interest. Imo, there was none b4 Barnes.
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All-In [43998]
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I disagree about Ellis having more NIT teams now.
Jun 4, 2021, 11:23 AM
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The NIT was a lot easier to get into during that time. During that era, a .500 record was usually automatic for an NIT bid.
For example, our '87-'88 team was 14-14 overall, 4-10 in the ACC (7th place out of 8 teams) and we got an NIT bid. Our '85-'86 team was 17-14 overall, 3-11 in the ACC (7th place out of 8 teams). That team also got an NIT bid.
Contrast that with today, where the NIT is much more difficult to get into. For example, our 2011-2012 team was 16-15 overall, 8-8 in the ACC (7th out of 12 teams) and did not get an NIT invite. In 2014-2015, we were 16-15 overall, 8-10 in the ACC (9th out of 15 teams) and did not get an NIT bid. In 2015-2016, we were 17-14 overall, 10-8 in the ACC (7th out of 15 teams) and did not get into the NIT.
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All-In [48152]
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Re: I disagree about Ellis having more NIT teams now.
Jun 4, 2021, 12:33 PM
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Good point. Thanks.
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All-In [48152]
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Re: I disagree about Ellis having more NIT teams now.
Jun 4, 2021, 12:37 PM
[ in reply to I disagree about Ellis having more NIT teams now. ] |
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The link I was looking at, didn't list the nit bids for whatever reason. So my bad. As another poster below listed teams, as have you that I didn't think they went anywhere. Would delete my post but can't.
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110%er [7943]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 5, 2021, 6:47 AM
[ in reply to Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball ] |
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Most excellent list and observations. I would squeeze tates in there somewhere. But Ellis didn't get the respect he deserved. The teams he had, today some of those teams would receive nit bids but he didn't. His strength of schedule was tough.
As viztiz says, short sighted just to look at wins and losses. Irks me that ppl including DRad cite that for support of Brad. Talk about zero support and interest. Imo, there was none b4 Barnes.
Like jizwiz you frown on wins with out stating a case for why it’s invalid. Perhaps you think the ACC was more difficult before adding Cuse, Louisville and Pitt?
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All-TigerNet [10924]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 5, 2021, 8:37 AM
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Wake and GT were bigger factors back then. Tracy, Odom, and Prosser had good teams the majority of the time. Odom especially. Of course Cremins had good teams at GT.
Maryland was right up there with any of the new three. Lefty was no slouch and Williams had good to great teams.
Duke and UNC were factories with little to no down time. Really UNC always and Duke from Gminski on...at least in my years....compared to Clemson at least.
NC State was always a battle. UVa was very, very good under Holland.
Pitt has cooled since joining the league. Syracuse is not at the former Big East days level. Louisville is not the same as the were under Crum.
So I wouldn’t say it’s any harder.
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All-In [48152]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 4, 2021, 10:39 AM
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Oh, on a side note, can't believe tnet, nctigs or judge hasn't commented or posted the McKay hire. I did as well as another article and asked for their input but never responded. I think it's a good hire.
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All-In [43998]
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I had posted a response to your post then but
Jun 4, 2021, 11:25 AM
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it didn't seem to go through.
I am glad Lucas is back. It's a good move for our program, especially for recruiting. Lucas is a good one who has a bright future.
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All-In [48152]
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Re: I had posted a response to your post then but
Jun 4, 2021, 12:43 PM
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I knew he helped him before but I am correct that he's now a true assistant. Would love to see him identify under the radar talent that trusts the process and stays with the team. Don't mind it being a transfer, but a young transfer that's not just looking for minutes.
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All-In [43998]
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My list:
Jun 4, 2021, 11:13 AM
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1. Rick Barnes
2. Brad Brownell
3. Cliff Ellis
4. Oliver Purnell
5. Bill Foster
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: My list:
Jun 4, 2021, 11:59 AM
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The coach whose team was never ranked at in point 8 of his 11 seasons is #2?
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All-In [43998]
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Absolutely.
Jun 4, 2021, 12:27 PM
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He has the most wins in program history, the best ACC winning percentage in program history, and is tied for the most NCAA Tournament appearances in program history. He gave us one of our best seasons ever a few years ago for our Sweet 16 run. He has also set program records in the classroom and his players are excellent representatives of Clemson University in the community.
I put Brad ahead of Ellis due to several factors. Cliff had our only regular season ACC title, as well as our only ACC POY, both of which count for a lot, but Cliff did not do as well in the NCAA Tournament as Brad did, did a lot worse in the ACC, and racked up a lot of his non-conference wins against really bad competition. Cliff also gets downgraded for NCAA troubles. I think he's a good coach, just not as good as Barnes and Brownell.
I put Brad ahead of Purnell due to Brad's better ACC winning percentage as well as Brad's far better NCAA Tournament performances. As I'm sure you know, Purnell never won an NCAA Tournament game despite being the higher seed and being favored to win.
I realize I'm probably wasting my time discussing this with you in such depth, but I'm hopeful that you want a real discussion and aren't just here to argue.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: Absolutely.
Jun 4, 2021, 1:03 PM
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Of course Brownell, who still has a sub .500 record, has the best percentage. He’s the only one who inherited an NCAA Tournament team. OP has a better percentage if throw out the first year for each. The Sweet Sixteen is the only real accomplishment over him. Winning the play in game does not matter. 2 Tournaments in 10 years is hardly impressive for a supposed great coach
Purnell also made the ACC Championship game, which we have only done twice ever
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All-In [43998]
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Yes, Purnell made the ACC championship game
Jun 4, 2021, 3:34 PM
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and lost. Sort of like he made the NCAA Tournament several times and lost. See a pattern here?
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: Yes, Purnell made the ACC championship game
Jun 4, 2021, 4:26 PM
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Getting there and losing is better than never doing it.
How do you explain OP’s teams playing 68 games ranked in the top 25 compared to only 37 for Brownell? Shouldn’t the better coach have better results?
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All-In [43998]
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Thanks, you just proved my point.
Jun 4, 2021, 11:11 PM
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If Purnell’s teams were good enough to be ranked so much, then why wasn’t he a good enough coach to see some NCAA Tournament success?
Your post suggests that Purnell was an even worse coach than I thought.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: Thanks, you just proved my point.
Jun 4, 2021, 11:38 PM
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Brownell will always have the 2 tournament wins to Purnell's 0. That's unfortunate given that Purnell built Clemson back from nothing rather than inheriting a program with a track record of success.
I notice you ignored how Purnell has 31 more games being ranked indicating his success was greater and far more sustained. It also speaks volumes that OP was 9-6 vs. Leonard Hamilton while Brownell is 8-16
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Thanks, you just proved my point.
Jun 5, 2021, 8:28 AM
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Brownell will always have the 2 tournament wins to Purnell's 0. That's unfortunate given that Purnell built Clemson back from nothing rather than inheriting a program with a track record of success.
I notice you ignored how Purnell has 31 more games being ranked indicating his success was greater and far more sustained. It also speaks volumes that OP was 9-6 vs. Leonard Hamilton while Brownell is 8-16
This is so annoying. OP’s talent he left dropped off a cliff after brownell’s first year. I would argue that the talent that Larry shyatt left OP was better than what OP left Brownell in years 2, 3, and 4
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110%er [9677]
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Hmmm… maybe the new coach was supposed to start recruiting when he was hired?
1
Jun 8, 2021, 8:04 AM
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If you know anything about basketball rosters, you would know BrownL was given a pretty generous gift for his first season.
For how many years do you think BrownL expected to simply live off of Purnell’s recruits?
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Legend [16900]
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"Cliff did not do as well in the NCAA Tournament as Brad"
Jun 4, 2021, 2:43 PM
[ in reply to Absolutely. ] |
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This is the kind of statement that you like to make that drives me insane. They have been to the same number of tourneys with Clemson. The have won the exact same number of NCAA tourney games. They both have made it to one Sweet 16. If anything Cliff would get a slight edge for winning two Round of 64 games whereas Brad has only won one. His first win was an inaugural First Four game - an opportunity for a win that did not exist for any other previous coach at Clemson. You knocked Ellis separately for his NCAA troubles so don't pretend Cliff's Sweet 16 run didn't happen. He not only was our only ACC Coach of the Year - he did it twice. They've both coached 11 seasons though Brownell has coached in over 40 more games due to expanded schedules yet Ellis coached Clemson against 75 ranked opponents to Brownell's 69. So Ellis coached a more densely competitive schedule than Brownell has (24% versus 19% ranked opponents).
To further compare quality of competition during their respective tenure - during the Ellis tenure 61% of ACC teams made the NCAA tournament with 34% of teams ending the season ranked in the AP poll. During Brownell's tenure the ACC has only gotten 45% of teams into the tournament and only had 28% of teams end the season ranked. You've previously dismissed RPI analysis of different eras. Can I safely assume you'll disregard these as well?
All stats pulled from sports-reference.com.
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All-In [43998]
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Our NCAA Tournament appearance in 1990 was
Jun 4, 2021, 3:50 PM
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vacated due to NCAA sanctions. In other words, it doesn't count.
I'm not sure why you insist on counting it when the NCAA doesn't.
Therefore, Cliff Ellis made two NCAA Tournaments at Clemson, not three:
'86-'87: Lost in First Round
'88-'89: Lost in Second Round
NCAA Tournament record at Clemson: 1-2
Even if you choose to count Ellis's 1990 NCAA Tournament team, which made the Sweet 16, his NCAA Tournament record at Clemson is 3-3 - the same as Brownell's.
Aside from their "equal" NCAA Tournament records at Clemson, you seem to place a lot of value on how much stronger you perceive the ACC to have been during Ellis's tenure. You're entitled to your opinion, but of course an 8 team ACC with a handful of good teams (and fewer good teams overall in college basketball) is going to get a higher percentage of its teams into the NCAA Tournament than an ACC that is nearly twice as large (and more good teams overall in college basketball).
Plus, it is harder for Clemson to get into the NCAA Tournament now than it was in Ellis's day, just as it is harder for Clemson to get into the NIT now than it was then. College basketball as a whole is a lot stronger, with more good teams competing for bids. Both tournaments also have more automatic bids now than they did then.
I think Cliff Ellis is a good coach. He has been successful everywhere he has been. However, he has also been fired twice as a head coach, while Brownell never has. That should tell you something.
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Legend [16900]
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“ I'm not sure why you insist on counting it when the NCAA
Jun 4, 2021, 6:24 PM
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doesn’t.”
Playing Mandela Effect games because the NCAA tells you to is stupid. I watched the games myself. I know they happened. Georgia Tech beat us in football in 2009 and we played 3 games in the 1990 NCAA tournament. I also have a hard time believing an actual Clemson fan that watched that UConn game would agree to memory hole that game. It most certainly happened. One of the most distinctive (if painful) Clemson memories there is. Pretending that it didn’t happen to try to back door win an argument about a coach is pretty cheap.
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All-In [43998]
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I’m not pretending it didn’t happen.
Jun 4, 2021, 11:19 PM
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It did happen. That was a fun season and a great NCAA Tournament run.
And then it was wiped from the record books because the NCAA felt that Cliff Ellis’s team’s transgressions were so significant that those two NCAA Tournament wins must be vacated.
I’d love to count that 1990 NCAA Tournament performance, because it would give us four Sweet 16 appearances in program history rather than just three. But the facts are the facts.
It’s sad that your disdain for Brownell is so significant, to the point that you are arguing so strongly to count wins from over 30 years ago that no history book still acknowledges.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: I’m not pretending it didn’t happen.
Jun 4, 2021, 11:49 PM
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“ I’d love to count that 1990 NCAA Tournament performance, because it would give us four Sweet 16 appearances in program history rather than just three. But the facts are the facts.”
For someone who has lambasted many posters on this board for not understanding facts or trusting science here you are, literally, embracing non-truth and going so far as to call it a fact. If the NCAA wants to be odious and pretend games didn’t happen, can’t stop them. If Clemson won’t hang banners because they’re threatened with further sanctions that is their decision. But no one, not one, rational human being should pretend something that happened, didn’t happen because someone tells them to. Clemson has been to four Sweet Sixteen and Cliff Ellis went to one. These are the actual facts of what happened in basketball. If you want to adjunct that with the *(vacated by NCAA) feel free - that is also more fact. But pretending that those games didn’t happen when discussing the relative merits of two coaches is a deliberate obfuscation of the truth.
And I’m sure you know that those games were vacated because Wayne Buckingham, who made minimal contribution, was deemed ineligible. The season counts and we still have a ACC regular season championship banner. So it was a pretty capricious penalty to begin with. But that is apropos of nothing. No one should go along with vacancies of wins as punishment. Show cause orders, terminating coaches, scholarship reductions, recruiting visit restrictions - these are real penalties that exist in the real world. Make the penalties worse, whatever. But do not play along when someone tells you to pretend a thing that happened, didn’t happen. Its unconscionable in any context.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: I’m not pretending it didn’t happen.
Jun 5, 2021, 12:00 AM
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Also pointing out NCAA issues when Blossomgame took cash from an agent and Steve Smith was visiting Zion during a dead period of recruiting.
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110%er [7943]
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Re: I’m not pretending it didn’t happen.
Jun 5, 2021, 7:24 AM
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Also pointing out NCAA issues when Blossomgame took cash from an agent and Steve Smith was visiting Zion during a dead period of recruiting.
Was Clemson put on probation or had to forfeit games because of these transgressions?
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All-In [43998]
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What NCAA issues?
Jun 8, 2021, 9:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: I’m not pretending it didn’t happen. ] |
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Please tell us about the NCAA investigation into Clemson’s involvement as well as the NCAA violations that occurred.
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All-In [43998]
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So you’ve decided to count our 1990 NCAA Tournament games
Jun 8, 2021, 9:07 AM
[ in reply to Re: I’m not pretending it didn’t happen. ] |
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even though they don’t count according to the official record.
The fact that you don’t see a problem with this is amazing.
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110%er [9677]
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All-In [43998]
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Oh I get it.
Jun 8, 2021, 9:16 AM
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You’ve decided that you don’t think the violations actually happened, and don’t like the NCAA’s sanctions, so you’re just going to act like those 1990 NCAA Tournament games count even though the governing body for college athletics says they don’t.
LOL.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Oh I get it.
Jun 8, 2021, 12:01 PM
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You’re being intellectually dishonest and you know it. Changing you attitudes and positions to suit your argument is not a sign of good character. You are the first to loud people out for not “believing science” and host of other sanctimonious attacks. Yet here you are - defending the NCAA against Clemson solely so you can score a point. A point I’m positive in private you would concede that you don’t believe. I an a world where social media is eroding our ability to recognize truth, the NCAA wants to pretend things that happened, didn’t. It’s poisonous. How the hell did UConn end up in the Elite 8 if they never played a game in the Sweet Sixteen. The NCAA is sloppily trying to punish schools and coaches and not recognize their achievements but that in no way should mean anyone discussing the schools accomplishments shouldn’t give the full story. It is an absolute absurdity that you would argue otherwise. Censoring history is grotesque. As trivial as a game of basketball might be in the larger picture it is part and parcel and is unacceptable. As such, I will never knowingly not acknowledge any games actually played in discussing any team. And yes, Wayne Buckingham playing in the tourney is the reason, regardless of any other violations that those games were officially voided. You’d know that if you were actually a Clemson fan but we know that isn’t very likely.
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All-TigerNet [10924]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 4, 2021, 11:21 AM
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1) Cliff Ellis (1984-1994) 3 NCAAs - 1 sweet 16, 5 NITs - quarters twice, ACC regular season champion (89-90) - only one in Clemson BB history. ACC coach of the year twice.
2) Rick Barnes (1994-1998). Three consecutive NCAA tournaments. AP #2 if only for one week, but highest ranking in Clemson BB history.
3) Oliver Purnell (2003-2010) 3 NCAAs, 3NITs - one final, 3rd ACC once, ACC Tournament final - once.
4a) Bill Foster (1975-1984) 1 NCAA - elite 8, 3 NITs, T-2 ACC once.
4b) Brad Brownell (2010-current) Three NCAAs - one sweet 16, 3 NITs - Semifinals once, T-3 ACC once.
Tates Locke (1970-1975) two winning seasons (73-74, 74-75), 1 NIT, T-2 ACC once. Fine coach. Turned himself inside out trying to get Clemson better in the ACC. 2 or 3 years probation after he left. Can’t remember exactly.
Message was edited by: NorthwestPurple®
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110%er [9677]
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Oliver Purnell, Cliff Ellis, Rick Barnes.***
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Jun 4, 2021, 11:25 AM
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Heisman Winner [133748]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 4, 2021, 12:05 PM
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Rick Barnes
Cliff Ellis
Bill Foster/Oliver Purnell
Brad Brownell.
Message was edited by: MyfavOrange®
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Oculus Spirit [83016]
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My list:
Jun 4, 2021, 12:18 PM
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1. Rick Barnes
2. Bill Foster (was on Tates Locke probation first 3 years)
3. Oliver Purnell
4. Cliff Ellis
5. Brad Brownell
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All-In [37746]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 4, 2021, 5:03 PM
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I still think Bill Foster was the best. He coached in the ACC when all of the teams were very good.
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All-In [37746]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 4, 2021, 5:05 PM
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Bill Foster... Some other coaches may have more wins, but not against the same competition.
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All-In [46448]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 4, 2021, 5:57 PM
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Dabo when he runs the court with his players & coaches!
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110%er [7943]
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Re: Who are the best Clemson Men’s Basketball
Jun 5, 2021, 7:59 AM
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Barnes is on top based on what he did with the slab five which was amazing.
OP is 2nd. He had no history and no facilities but was able to recruit athletes and press his way to success. Did not work against good teams at tourney time but was still overall successful.
CBB is third based on the stats already discussed
Locke and Ellis were cheaters so they did not make the list because we do not know their records had they played by the rules
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Legend [17757]
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Ellis***
Jun 5, 2021, 8:32 AM
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