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Orange Blooded [2273]
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Safeties
Jul 13, 2021, 12:37 PM
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Does anyone have a concern that this will be where other teams attack us. I love Turner's attitude but he struggles against elite tallent. Who do you guys think starts at the other safety and why.
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110%er [7929]
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Re: Safeties
Jul 13, 2021, 12:47 PM
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Its interesting that you take a common narrative and assume its fact. Our safeties are not the most athletic in the world but are not chopped liver either. This means if all the other position groups do not do their part then our safeties will not have the athleticism to over come the misses. Corners need to play their assignment, DL has to get pressure on the QB and LBs need to cover their assignment. When one or more positons breakdown it looks like the safety is lost or blew it but that is not always the case
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Asst Coach [702]
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Re: Safeties
Jul 13, 2021, 8:55 PM
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1. He was the leading tackler last year. (That doesn't mean much. It means he's around the football, sure, but is completely irrelevant when making the point he gets beat)
2. Tigernet hated Muse for most of the time he was here. (I could care less, because tigernet is often wrong and reactionary and doesn't understand football in an Xs and Os type of way)
3. He's the most consistent safety last year. (That's a nice way of saying hes a solid player, but not the 4/5 star caliber explosive playmaker that national championship caliber teams need. Id be fine with it still, if our other safety was a first round kinda guy. The whole team can't be 5 star first rounders, but two "solid" players at a key level of defense isn't going to cut it. Same with Linebackers. Have Kane Patterson and Venables on the field and we aren't winning a championship. Need a Simpson skalski or Bentley that makes stuff happen.
Zanders IMO is a ballhawk risk taker without the body and speed to do it. The point of athletic safeties is that when someone inevitably DOES get beat or bite on something there's enough speed to recover. Think Macenzie Alexander. Played risky and took chances but was fast enough to recover.
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Associate AD [806]
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Re: Safeties
Jul 14, 2021, 2:29 AM
[ in reply to Re: Safeties ] |
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So being the leading tackler on the team does not mean anything Tell that to any DC. By the way, I guess in your book it does not mean anything but turner also led with interceptions with 3. Better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone think you are dumb..............
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110%er [5012]
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Re: Safeties
Jul 13, 2021, 12:48 PM
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I don't know who the second safety will be, but we're carrying 12 or 13 players designated as safeties on the roster. Surely a couple of them can play the position well.
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110%er [6319]
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Re: Safeties
Jul 13, 2021, 12:55 PM
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Nolan and Zanders will start. Charleston will see a lot of playing time. Charleston will see the field a lot. The coaches raved about Mukuba, so I expect him to play a lot as well.
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Legend [18782]
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Again, I am no football film expert but Mukuba
Jul 13, 2021, 3:06 PM
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looks like a complete bada$$ in his high school highlights.
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110%er [6319]
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Re: Again, I am no football film expert but Mukuba
Jul 14, 2021, 10:24 AM
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I’m expecting Zanders to have a big year if he’s healthy. He’s long, rangy, and has great ball skills. Hopefully Charleston has a big summer and fall camp. I would like to see him playing more over Nolan when we are up against elite talent. Nolan, Zanders, and Charleston are clearly the top 3.
Ray Thornton and Jayln Phillips are in year 3. Might be now or never for them. RJ Mickens is still developing. Mukuba has a chance to crack the two deep and see significant playing time as a true frosh. He’s the most diverse safety that we have.
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Legend [18782]
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I am glad you're optimistic about Zanders..
Jul 14, 2021, 10:49 AM
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I really wish I was. I mean I WANT to be. Nolan, Charleston, and Zanders just seem like a serviceable bunch (with Nolan being the best) but none of them seem to be future NFL players to me. Having said all that, what the heck do I know? I am just a random Clemson fan with no experience judging talent.
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110%er [6319]
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Re: I am glad you're optimistic about Zanders..
Jul 14, 2021, 6:16 PM
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Nolan has zero NFL future. But, he is serviceable. Will always struggle against elite competition though.
Zanders has an NFL future as a safety. He was just a sophomore that played hurt last year. And he didn’t get much playing time as a freshman because we had Tanner Muse, K’Von Wallace, Denzel Johnson, and Nolan Turner ahead of him. All 4th and 5th year guys. He has the ideal size and athleticism, plus great ball skills. For him, he just needs time to develop mentally.
Charleston has NFL potential as well, although I would have liked for him to have shown more up to this point. He has ideal size and athleticism as well. But, he’s clearly more of a thumper. I doubt he’ll ever be great in pass coverage.
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110%er [6319]
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Re: I am glad you're optimistic about Zanders..
Jul 14, 2021, 6:16 PM
[ in reply to I am glad you're optimistic about Zanders.. ] |
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Nolan has zero NFL future. But, he is serviceable. Will always struggle against elite competition though.
Zanders has an NFL future as a safety. He was just a sophomore that played hurt last year. And he didn’t get much playing time as a freshman because we had Tanner Muse, K’Von Wallace, Denzel Johnson, and Nolan Turner ahead of him. All 4th and 5th year guys. He has the ideal size and athleticism, plus great ball skills. For him, he just needs time to develop mentally.
Charleston has NFL potential as well, although I would have liked for him to have shown more up to this point. He has ideal size and athleticism as well. But, he’s clearly more of a thumper. I doubt he’ll ever be great in pass coverage.
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All-TigerNet [12831]
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Re: Safeties***
Jul 13, 2021, 6:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: Safeties ] |
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Orange Blooded [4953]
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I’m concerned…
Jul 13, 2021, 1:31 PM
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I like Turner, he has a nose for the ball but I can’t hide the fact that teams were creating one-on-one matchups to exploit him last season. He lacks the athleticism that you want to see at that FS position, especially for a program like Clemson. He also struggled with open field tackling last season (ex. see long ND TD) and was uncharacteristically out of position a lot (see Olave TD for example). Hopefully he improves or someone like Mukuba pushes him for that position.
My issues with Zanders are all surrounding his 1,001 missed tackles last season. I heard his shoulder was injured so we’ll see if it improves now that he’s healthy.
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Associate AD [806]
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Re: I’m concerned…
Jul 13, 2021, 5:18 PM
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Nolan Turner was the leading tackler on the team last year. Baylon Spector was second. Myles Murphy was third. If a QB has time to throw a 40 or 50 yard pass to a guy guarded by a safety several players did not have a good down. Clemson is very lucky to not have some of the posters on this site as coaches.
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Orange Blooded [2111]
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Re: I’m concerned…
Jul 13, 2021, 6:27 PM
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This times 1000. Same doofuses that thought Maybe sucked bc he was always running after someone else's missed assignment. There are very few safeties in football that can cover a #1 receiver 1 on 1 so teams are always trying to exploit matchups like those. Doesn't mean a guy sucks if he gets beat occasionally.
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Orange Blooded [2111]
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Re: I’m concerned…
Jul 13, 2021, 6:27 PM
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Muse not maybe
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Orange Blooded [2523]
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Re: Safeties
Jul 13, 2021, 1:43 PM
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This won't be popular here, but, we're not winning a NC with Turner or Zanders starting at safety. These guys don't have the athleticism to hang with an elite team for 60 minutes. We better hope Mickens, Mukuba, and Carter are ready to go.
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Orange Blooded [3496]
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we won an NC with Muse. What's the difference?
Jul 13, 2021, 2:12 PM
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The DL was incredible in 2018 but teams still went after Muse. I think we can win with Turner because he's a good player. I'm not sold on Zanders.
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Legend [16120]
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Muse is an ELITE athlete , I don't know if Nolan could run
Jul 13, 2021, 2:37 PM
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ME down in the open field
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Standout [307]
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Re: we won an NC with Muse. What's the difference?
Jul 13, 2021, 3:02 PM
[ in reply to we won an NC with Muse. What's the difference? ] |
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Muse was drafted into the NFL. Nothing against Turner or Zanders, but they’re not making a practice squad.
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Legend [18782]
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Both you guys are right neither Zanders or Turner is close
Jul 13, 2021, 3:12 PM
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to being as good as Muse. I remember last year all we heard about was how much Zanders was emerging as this superstar safety out of spring and summer practice reports.
Unfortunately, that never materialized and I was completely nonplussed as to why after seeing him actually play. I am hoping it was the injury.
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Orange Blooded [2111]
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Re: Both you guys are right neither Zanders or Turner is close
Jul 13, 2021, 6:29 PM
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Most of tnet thought Muse sucked when he was here. Nolan was a second team all American last year and first team all ACC. He's a baller
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Legend [18782]
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Muse was bigger and faster than Nolan or Zanders
Jul 14, 2021, 10:44 AM
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and, as someone pointed out, got drafted to the NFL. I will bet you $50 that Nolan is not drafted. I guess you're agreeing with me about Zanders.
Now I am not happy to sit here and disparage Nolan, just pointing out that Muse was more valuable. Who cares what people on TNet say. With all due respect, that's a poor argument.
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Oculus Spirit [76721]
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Re: Muse was bigger and faster than Nolan or Zanders
Jul 14, 2021, 9:44 PM
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That’s good advice ??
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All-Pro [686]
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Orange Blooded [2111]
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Head Coach [798]
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Re: we won an NC with Muse. What's the difference?
Jul 14, 2021, 11:18 AM
[ in reply to Re: we won an NC with Muse. What's the difference? ] |
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Muse was drafted where he was based on measurables. The Raiders are also switched him to OLB if I am not mistaken. Muse is a much better athlete and has elite speed for his size. Turner is out of position far less than Muse was. They both looked a lot better playing with Isiah Simmons in his last year.
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Oculus Spirit [76721]
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110%er [5012]
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There are ways to win championship games
Jul 13, 2021, 2:17 PM
[ in reply to Re: Safeties ] |
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without stellar safety play by making adjustments - if we have the needed talent:
1 - Outscore the opponent - we have a lot of offensive firepower and should be able to score against UGA's defense without too much trouble. The OL will be the key to this year's scoring ability, so they will carry a heavy load for us to go all the way.
2 - Show a different defensive scheme - 3-high safety or a 3-2-6 with 4 safeties. I think we have the talent to make that work if the front can stop the run and get reasonable pass pressure. 4 safeties can do a lot of damage against a spread offense.
3 - A combination of both - if we can get the jump on teams, hold the running game and force them to play catch-up, a loaded secondary is deadly.
I do think the offensive part is going to be there and I trust that Venables will devise some sort of secondary loading that resembles a normal Cover-2, but morphs into something a bit more clever.
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Standout [307]
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Re: Safeties
Jul 13, 2021, 2:55 PM
[ in reply to Re: Safeties ] |
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I think we can win with either of them starting, but not both.
Nolan is the most consistent of the safeties, for better or for worse. He’s going to do solid work against your average WRs, and he’s going to struggle against the elite WRs. I’m not going to fault him against LSU. That was probably our worst defense of the past 5 or so years and Burrow played out of his mind. OSU last year out schemed BV like I haven’t seen before. The whole defense played terrible, not just Nolan.
Zanders his freshman year showed bad intentions. He’d fly around and pop people. I remember thinking I couldn’t wait to see that kid put on some size and play more in control. Sadly I think I’m still waiting.
Charleston, Thornton, and Philips all looked the part physically in the spring of the type of safeties we’ve had recently. When they got in the game last year I saw a whole lot of flat feet. I’m hoping that was more just them catching up to the speed of the game then an indication of their athleticism.
Mickens came in highly rated. He looked undersized last year, but looked like he bulked up in the spring game. He had some highlights in the game for what it’s worth.
Mukuba looks the part of an elite safety. He’ll need to put on a little size, but he is a freak athlete with a nose for the ball. I’m hoping he’s on the field sooner than later, but know we don’t play freshman too much at the position.
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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I think Mickens will be a special player for us
Jul 14, 2021, 9:31 PM
[ in reply to Re: Safeties ] |
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He should be familiar enough with the system to get some good snaps this year. (I hope)
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All-In [38451]
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Re: Safeties
Jul 13, 2021, 1:49 PM
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I am a fan of Nolan.
Even early when he got mop up duty, something strange and good would happen.
That continues. When he is in the game, chances are high that he will make some impossible game changing play. It seems to even surprise him.
And he is a AFCA second-team All-American, so kinda getting the job done and more.
https://storage.googleapis.com/afs-prod/media/1faab1d0b544486987fc5639a761aad4/3000.jpeg
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Legend [16120]
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He was great as a 3rd wheel, when he is the last line of
Jul 13, 2021, 2:40 PM
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defense he gets exposed repeatedly
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Orange Blooded [2523]
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Re: He was great as a 3rd wheel, when he is the last line of
Jul 13, 2021, 2:47 PM
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Here is a prime example of Turner's lack of athleticism. What should have been a 15 yard run for ND ended up as a touchdown because of the awful angle he took. I see Turner do things like this constantly. We need to more athletic guys back there.
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Orange Blooded [4953]
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Oh I was punching air when he missed that tackle***
Jul 13, 2021, 3:02 PM
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Associate AD [806]
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Re: Oh I was punching air when he missed that tackle***
Jul 13, 2021, 5:26 PM
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I repeat Nolan Turner was the leading tackler on the team last year>
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Legend [18782]
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Maybe because teams were running at him more?
Jul 14, 2021, 10:57 AM
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because if you saw the same games I did, Nolan seems to be a smart player in great position most of the time but lacks a little athleticism. I don't see how you can argue that point.
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Associate AD [806]
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Re: Maybe because teams were running at him more?
Jul 14, 2021, 3:53 PM
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No teams have any plays designed to run at a certain safety. That is a ridiculous statement and not worthy of an argument. If you will watch the games with a trained eye you will see that Nolan Turner makes more tackles than anyone on the team because he covers more ground every play than any player on the team. He is in on many tackles flying from his safety spot to the line of scrimmage and one one and two yard gains. The number two tackler on the team is Baylon spector. Number three is Myles Murphy. Interesting also, in fifth place both having only nine games is a tie James Skalsky and Jake Venables.
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Legend [16120]
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He's the last line of defense...literally...We funnel the
Jul 14, 2021, 3:59 PM
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action to him, he SHOULD have a ton of tackles
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Associate AD [806]
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Re: He's the last line of defense...literally...We funnel the
Jul 14, 2021, 9:53 PM
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Just when I thought these post could not get any dumber. No defense in the country at any level is designed to funnel a runner to the safety to make the tackle. Some of you guys need to find another sport to follow. Maybe curling would be easier to comprehend.
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Legend [16120]
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So he led the team in tackles by accident? He's usually
Jul 14, 2021, 10:39 PM
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the extra player by design Einstein
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Associate AD [806]
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Re: So he led the team in tackles by accident? He's usually
Jul 14, 2021, 11:31 PM
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Another statement that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Extra player by design. Incomprehensible. Energy equals mass times speed of light squared.
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Associate AD [806]
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Legend [16120]
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We, in that context, would be the Tiger defense...Who else
Jul 14, 2021, 10:40 PM
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WOULD I be referring to? The French Foreign Legion?
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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Didn’t take a great angle or get on the outside shoulder
Jul 14, 2021, 9:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: He was great as a 3rd wheel, when he is the last line of ] |
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There.
He’s a very dependable player though. He’s smart enough to be in the correct place to make plays.
It would be great to have a guy with his talents and 4.3 speed. Those are top 5 draft picks
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All-In [27287]
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Re: He was great as a 3rd wheel, when he is the last line of
Jul 13, 2021, 2:57 PM
[ in reply to He was great as a 3rd wheel, when he is the last line of ] |
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IMO the second level and LB play needs to improve. The deep safety in BVs Defense is more of a blitzer or distraction to disrupt the play long enough for the LBs or Dline to get home.
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Commissioner [908]
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Re: Safeties
Jul 13, 2021, 2:47 PM
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Would Zanders play better if he got a hair cut, seems like that would slow him down.
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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Re: Safeties
Jul 14, 2021, 6:14 PM
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Has he gotten paid on an NIL contract by a shampoo company yet?
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All-In [27287]
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Re: Safeties
Jul 13, 2021, 2:55 PM
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If Charleston puts on some weight and keeps his speed I can see him being out in that hybrid role Isaiah Simmons played in the other safety spot at times. BV will have certain people for certain times playing that spot. Turner is beneficial back there due to his knowledge and ability to recognize plays. He is the “backup QB” to Skalski. Having those two on the field is like having A second DC on the field.
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All-TigerNet [10604]
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Re: Safeties
Jul 14, 2021, 5:51 PM
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^^^^^^^^^ Correct!
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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Re: Safeties
Jul 14, 2021, 6:11 PM
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I'm excited about the young safeties.
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Hall of Famer [22259]
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Saying that a safety leads a team in tackles is like saying
Jul 14, 2021, 6:43 PM
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a point guard led a team in assists. Well yeah, unless you have stud LBs. Still doesn't mean there weren't a bunch of missed tackles and blown coverages, especially against elite teams... not Citadel, WF, Duke, etc.
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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Re: Saying that a safety leads a team in tackles is like saying
Jul 14, 2021, 9:51 PM
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Eric Meekins comes to mind. We absolutely need his tackling machine self during his time at Clemson.
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Associate AD [806]
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Re: Saying that a safety leads a team in tackles is like saying
Jul 14, 2021, 10:08 PM
[ in reply to Saying that a safety leads a team in tackles is like saying ] |
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Turner also led the team in interceptions. To a novice fan the secondary much like an offensive lineman is only noticed when a mistake is made. The times a pass is not thrown his way because of coverage etc. goes unnoticed. But how does even a novice miss the guy who leads the team in tackles or interceptions? How does even a novice state that this guy is a drag on the team???
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Legend [16120]
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Oh Good Lord, what qualifies you as an expert Ace?
Jul 15, 2021, 1:30 AM
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O
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