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Orange Blooded [2150]
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If people truly believed
Sep 15, 2022, 12:23 PM
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that everybody who is not a Christian is a split second away from being doomed to eternal torture, those people would be standing on the street corners begging people to accept Jesus as their savior.
Y’all don’t believe that mess….
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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Would it persuade you if Jesus was preached on every corner?***
Sep 15, 2022, 1:08 PM
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All-In [26968]
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It's either that we don't really believe it
Sep 15, 2022, 2:25 PM
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Or that we don't really care. Either way, it's sad commentary, isn't it?
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All-In [26968]
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By the way, some people do that...
Sep 15, 2022, 2:26 PM
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And are mocked for it, which they don't mind. But aren't those folks really the best of us? Isn't it obvious that they care, a lot? Bless them.
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All-In [29823]
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Re: By the way, some people do that...
Sep 15, 2022, 3:01 PM
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Yes, intentions matter. Despite the "Road to hell is paved with.." stuff - which isn't even in the Bible, incidentally.
It's hard to begrudge someone who is honestly, in their heart, trying to help you. Even if you don't believe in their methods, or their viewpoint. One cannot read the OT without seeing God as a beleaguered father, at his wits end with his disobedient children. He has a harsh side, and he gets fed up with them, but he's always there, no matter how angry (or violent, and on occasion, deadly) he gets.
The clearest form of saying "I don't care" is to ignore. That sends a clear message. So intent does matter, at least to me, just speaking as a human. Bless them, indeed. A good heart transcends any religion, imo. We are all just trying to figure it all out, in our own ways. A little help or insight along the way can be appreciated by everyone, I think.
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Orange Blooded [2150]
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Re: It's either that we don't really believe it
Sep 16, 2022, 8:08 AM
[ in reply to It's either that we don't really believe it ] |
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Have you ever actually thought of the implications of what you believe?
That the vast majority of the people were created just so your god can torture them for eternity.
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All-In [26968]
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Interesting you telling me what I believe...
Sep 16, 2022, 9:05 AM
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By the way, you're very wrong in that I do not believe that, at all. God didn't create anyone to be "tortured". Never, ever. Everything and everyone He created, He created for His glory and for good. Many, starting with Satan and his angels, chose a path adverse to that, and will accept the necessary consequences for that choice.
God didn't create anyone to be tortured anymore than a parent had a child for the purpose of putting them into prison. The child may make choices that put them in prison.
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: Interesting you telling me what I believe...
Sep 16, 2022, 9:11 AM
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Why is God so insecure?
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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What happens to perfect if you alter it?
Sep 16, 2022, 10:33 AM
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Perfect is a term we sling around without really seeing anything that's perfect. It's like the term love, people say that to each other many times a day. Some say the word and others just kiss two fingers, point to another and then pat their chest to convey that they have love for another.
Perfect, to man, is achieved only in the imagination so you can imagine how perfect existence was before Satan altered it by simply having a will other than God's. In the book of Isaiah Chpt 14:
"13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
I grew up thinking that the 'war in Heaven,' was fought with swords of lightening, great feats of strength and power and was a war of such epic proportion that God barely made it out alive. I was a child and my understanding was limited to war movies and such.
All that happened was simple, Satan wasn't trying to conquer Heaven, he simply varied from God's will. That's quite septic. He had contaminated God's Holy dwelling by simply wanting to, perhaps, just be his own God, direct himself and maybe those he tempted to set up a kingdom where he was worshiped or at least honored. So Satan had one desire for himself which set him contrary to God. It was more than a simple desire for he was claiming to be a god and honoring himself as god. He willed himself to be the opposite of everything which God is. Love became hate, to him. Right became wrong, truth became a lie. His desire pitted him against everything God stood for.
It was like Dems and Pubs, every day was opposite day. How can existence be perfect with such conflict?
Perfection was altered but God's intent to return His kingdom to perfect was as great as His power to do it. God created the perfect place for those angels which abandoned Him. We call it hell, but the only thing I know for sure about hell is that it is a place where God is not. I believe the Bible calls it an existence of enduring fire because only an eternal burning of flesh is the only reference we have which describes being absent from God's presence. In my heart I know that just burning for eternity doesn't say the misery of being alone from God.
I have read the work of theologians who believe that man was created to show that God's selfishness was not selfish at all. That He created man, being God who is all knowing, with the knowledge that man would fall. That He was determined to put the matter of variations to His will to rest for eternity and did so by taking flesh of mankind and bearing the sin of man on a cross.
There are many here among us who testify that God did just that. Our understanding of God is from experience with Him, it's not just head knowledge. He has changed us from those who claim love to we who have love, for God, His precious Son who sits at His right hand bearing the scars in His hands and feet which proves that God's selfishness is for all who acknowledge His sacrifice for us. And we love one another not with love that dies but love that endures eternally as does God's love for us and for you.
Our God, The Lord Jesus our Christ is waiting, holding off on His return to allow every lost person who will be save to get saved, every backslider who will return to fellowship, time to realize where his joy lies.
God is not insecure, His motivation is not to remove any threats to His sovereignty, it is to preserve perfect for not just Himself but His subjects. He is a good God, a God full of love, mercy which is everlasting, truth and honor which endure eternally.
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Orange Blooded [2150]
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Re: Interesting you telling me what I believe...
Sep 16, 2022, 10:39 AM
[ in reply to Interesting you telling me what I believe... ] |
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That analogy doesn’t hold up.
A parent doesn’t put a child in prison. Someone else does.
A supreme being created the human population knowing that the vast majority of them would spend eternity in agony.
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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Don't leave out the part where He took a body of flesh...
Sep 16, 2022, 12:39 PM
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and died so that they wouldn't have to spend eternity without Him. That's the entire story of the scripture, what it's all about, start to finish.
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Orange Blooded [2150]
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Re: Don't leave out the part where He took a body of flesh...
Sep 16, 2022, 1:15 PM
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And he said the majority of people wouldn’t believe it.
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
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Legend [17888]
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Few find it ?
Sep 17, 2022, 8:02 AM
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Why? Because they refuse to take it even after a [hint] it is the way to go? Because they would rather argue that they know a better way...or that it doesn't matter which way they go? Take yourself, for example. Having heard and yet, well, the path you are on is going which way?
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: If people truly believed
Sep 16, 2022, 9:08 AM
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Exactly. They still have their doubts.
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Hall of Famer [23977]
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Re: If people truly believed
Sep 18, 2022, 12:46 AM
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I don't think that standing on a street corner will help. I will share Christ with anyone that will listen. I cannot save anyone. Only God can change someone's heart.
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110%er [7086]
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Re: If truly - people not willing to consider new concepts
Sep 18, 2022, 1:05 PM
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I understand why you believe what you believe ... and what you don't believe.
The large majority people (whether they are happy or unhappy, and whether they like themselves or loathe themselves) are highly immovable with respect to their beliefs. I'm one of them (highly immovable); welcome to my state of mind.
But the combination of various different messages from Christians (the street-corner preachers, friends and girl friends, work colleagues, literature [including Gideon's Bible], etc.) + real life experiences (including nearly endless episodes of my own stupidity and also among people that I knew), I was able to 'put it together' enough to study the aspects of Christianity that I had been determined to ignore.
The 'light' for me didn't become bright in one big flash; it was the 'dimmer switch' type light that led me to return to Christ and to love God.
The people who try to reach the non-believers have different approaches to reach the stubborn people such as you and me. Most of them are sincere, even if their means of communication do no resonate with you. The sincere ones are not delusional, even if their articulation doesn't work for you.
You are undoubtedly a less stubborn person than me because you are willing to engage in this dialogue at a younger age than when I finally re-engaged. During my especially stupid days, I did my level darndest to ignore the believers.
I admire you for your engagement; it shows emotional and psychological intelligence.
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Orange Blooded [2150]
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Re: If truly - people not willing to consider new concepts
Sep 19, 2022, 6:51 PM
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I don’t claim to have any answers.
Just a ton of questions.
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