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Orange Blooded [2669]
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CU Medallion [73569]
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#1, so whats the Real death count
Jan 10, 2022, 6:53 PM
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#2, what is the sudden change in all the rhetoric lately? All of.sudden theyre finally being honest about all of this?
If anyone me tioned anything they've been saying, theyd be burned at the cross publicly, over the past 2 yrs
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: #1, so whats the Real death count
Jan 10, 2022, 7:13 PM
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#2, what is the sudden change in all the rhetoric lately? All of.sudden theyre finally being honest about all of this?
If anyone me tioned anything they've been saying, theyd be burned at the cross publicly, over the past 2 yrs
Yep, all sorts of information has come out recently. Fauci has been saying things that would get you censored just a few months ago.
Also, where have all the healthcare workers been that have been telling everyone that their hospitals are over-capacity? Shouldn't people have come out immediately and said this wasn't right? The way we have counted covid hospitalizations and deaths is so incompetent, it has to be intentional.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: #1, so whats the Real death count
Jan 10, 2022, 7:32 PM
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: #1, so whats the Real death count
Jan 10, 2022, 8:03 PM
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The hospitals have been over capacity. That’s a verifiable fact and I know through firsthand accounts. One of my kids had to go to an ER two weeks ago for a non-COVID reason and it was full of coughing people. Had to wait forever to be seen. This past week has been terrible just here in SC. Many healthcare workers have just quit which makes the problem even worse.
So while I’m sure there has been some miscounting and wrongly attributing of cases, the hospitals definitely fill up when cases are high. That is somewhat eased by them delaying elective stuff which is also not good.
Hospitals operate at 80-85% capacity on any given day. Hospitals had wait times pre-pandemic. I've experienced it. Add in covid hospitalizations, and it makes sense that hospitals are at capacity.
Why don't hospitals work to increase their capacities? Covid isn't going away any time soon. And staffers have quit/been fired because of vax mandates and all this money being printed by the government.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: #1, so whats the Real death count
Jan 10, 2022, 8:14 PM
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: #1, so whats the Real death count
Jan 10, 2022, 8:22 PM
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The capacity question is a good one but not easily solved. Expanding physical capacity doesn’t mean you will have people to staff it. My daughter says a lot of people have just quit and SC was already in the hole with a nursing shortage prior to COVID. Then the really stupid thing they do is pay travel nurses $4-6k a week to come work there. So they pay outsiders that while they pay the regular nurses a fourth of that.
Someone made a good point on Fox the other day (not a commentator either, a doctor). They said the best thing we could do is figure out an emergency response for these COVID waves using FEMA, Guard, etc. so that the regular hospitals and patients aren’t impacted. I would be hard pressed to go to a hospital for anything now because of the COVID. They should be at a separate facility IMO.
I agree with all that. Labor shortages due to unemployment benefits, money printing, and vax mandates are hitting hospitals as well.
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All-TigerNet [13027]
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Mark Me!
Jan 10, 2022, 7:01 PM
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The Democrats expecting to be crushed in Nov, were hell bent on scaring people from voting in person again this year. COVID!!!!
The states that circumvented their own constitutions last year to allow unverified mail-in ballots, are now quagmired in legal challenges.
Now the democrats must “un-scare” the lemmings into voting in person again. Who better to lead the charge than CNN.
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110%er [6692]
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Re: Pretty wild admission 2 years into the pandemic
Jan 10, 2022, 7:44 PM
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Either way, something like 90% of those people aren't vaccinated. Who wants to go to the hospital? I was in there for over a week with a covid pneumonia and it sucked.
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Oculus Spirit [93618]
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I don't think that was imcompetence.
Jan 10, 2022, 7:48 PM
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I think it was a decision made by those who had power such as the CDC and NIH to seize more power, funding and influence.
Oh how many times in my lifetime have I heard, 'If you don't listen to me and do what I say you're going to die?' It's SOP for power mongers.
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All-In [26968]
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Seems logical.
Jan 11, 2022, 7:42 AM
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Is this a new revelation? I'm not sure it's a wrong thing to count those among the COVID hospitalizations. I'm sure it's not always easy to delineate in black-and-white between exactly what admits, and then keeps, a person in the hospital.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Seems logical.
Jan 11, 2022, 8:20 AM
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Is this a new revelation? I'm not sure it's a wrong thing to count those among the COVID hospitalizations. I'm sure it's not always easy to delineate in black-and-white between exactly what admits, and then keeps, a person in the hospital.
Are you serious? If you go to the hospital for a reason other than covid, it shouldn't be counted as a covid hospitalization. It's not that hard. Why do you bozos make excuses for everything? Deaths and hospitalizations have been drastically over counted. When lockdowns and policy decisions are made based on deaths and hospitalizations, it's a big deal.
I've heard this in the past, but it was immediately dismissed as a far right conspiracy theory.
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All-In [26968]
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I think your opinion is valid and well-reasoned.
Jan 11, 2022, 8:27 AM
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I'm sorry you think I'm a "bozo" for thinking of it a little bit differently.
I think it makes sense to be conservative if there is some uncertainty. If there was intent to deceive, then that is obviously wrong.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: I think your opinion is valid and well-reasoned.
Jan 11, 2022, 9:03 AM
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It was either intent to deceive or incredibly incompetent. I just don't understand how anyone can be that incompetent.
It's obvious covid was weaponized to hurt trump. (Not saying the reason covid was released was to oust trump). See the covid death tracker on all the major networks that conveniently stopped after joe Biden was elected. See fauci, democrats, media, and fact checkers argue with trump on vaccine release timing.
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All-In [26968]
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I know personally people who have been in the hospital
Jan 11, 2022, 8:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: Seems logical. ] |
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and were diagnosed with COVID while there. I think a lot of us have that experience. I don't know why anyone would dismiss that as a "conspiracy theory," and I'm also thinking it has not been so dismissed.
Same with a related item about comorbidities for COVID deaths. We've all known that from the beginning of the pandemic...it's not some new revelation. Right from the start, the CDC and others made it clear that most people dying from COVID had other health issues. So, not a surprise at all.
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Legend [15730]
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A couple thoughts...
Jan 11, 2022, 9:10 AM
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Counting Hospitalizations *with* COVID the same as Hospitalizations *FOR* COVID makes sense to me only in terms of hospital resource strains, assuming what the guy on the video said is accurate and anyone who tests positive for COVID in the hospital requires certain protocols, testing, management, containment, etc. (which, makes sense to me...you might have a broken leg but if you're positive for COVID, they still need to isolate you and put on the PPE etc).
However, in my opinion, the reporting of COVID Hospitalizations clearly implied that they were admitted for a COVID-related issue. If 40% (???) were not, that significantly reduces the doom-and-gloom associated with the reporting. By not being absolutely clear on what a "COVID Hospitalization" was, they were misleading the public.
As for the comorbidities, I agree, but I again think that they didn't really focus on this to a sufficient level. Understanding the risk for an average weight, non-diabetic adult age 18-49 (or whatever) is SIGNIFICANTLY LOW (and I don't remember the specifics, but something like that) would be a public service and help people make good choices.
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All-In [26968]
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Re: A couple thoughts...
Jan 11, 2022, 9:36 AM
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Good thoughts.
I'm not sure if any number was reduced by 40%, it would result in less "gloom-and-doom" reporting. I can't say I've watched much, if any, news on COVID, but my perception on the news is that they are pretty much always "doom-and-gloom". It's one reason I don't watch it, actually.
I never thought the thing about comorbidities should necessarily make a big difference in policy. You can't just throw obese people, smokers, old people, etc. to the wolves. Sure, in many cases their choices have contributed to what happens to them, but if we have an opportunity to protect them, we should. I never wore a mask, social-distanced, because I was afraid of dying of COVID, because the CDC and other authorities made it clear that I wasn't at high risk. I did it because I was afraid of my friend/family/neighbor, who is 85 years old, who has lung issues, etc., dying with it. I thought that was the prevailing thought all along...we need to protect those most vulnerable.
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All-In [31864]
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Does it really matter?....
Jan 11, 2022, 9:13 AM
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I'm all for having as accurate information as possible. But what difference does it make if someone is in the hospital due to having covid or if someone in the hospital for something else (or goes to hospital for something else) is tested positive for covid.
Isn't what really matters is how the hospitals are running from a capacity perspective?
Hospitals in many places are overloaded. Is someone making the case that they aren't being overloaded due to impacts from COVID?
If deaths are overstated by, for discussion's sake, 20%....does it really matter in terms of the severity. In other words, if the deaths caused by COVID in the US is not 838k, but 700k instead....does that really change the scale of the problem?
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Does it really matter?....
Jan 11, 2022, 9:18 AM
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I'm all for having as accurate information as possible. But what difference does it make if someone is in the hospital due to having covid or if someone in the hospital for something else (or goes to hospital for something else) is tested positive for covid.
Isn't what really matters is how the hospitals are running from a capacity perspective?
Hospitals in many places are overloaded. Is someone making the case that they aren't being overloaded due to impacts from COVID?
If deaths are overstated by, for discussion's sake, 20%....does it really matter in terms of the severity. In other words, if the deaths caused by COVID in the US is not 838k, but 700k instead....does that really change the scale of the problem?
Yes we need to have the most accurate data as possible when making decisions on lockdowns and mandates. We all know the cases have been significantly undercounted, and hospitalizations and deaths have been over counted.
Also, prior to the 2020 election each and every death mattered significantly and it was all trumps fault.
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Legend [15730]
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It does. It is yet a further erosion in the level of
Jan 11, 2022, 9:20 AM
[ in reply to Does it really matter?.... ] |
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trust that the public has in both its media and its government institutions. This is a clear and easily-fixed misrepresentation. If they were counting broken legs with covid as a "Covid Hospitalization" to represent the resource strain in hospitals, they could easily have made that clear from the get-go. Doing so would have allowed them to clearly articulate why it matters and what the impact is, without looking like they are trying to mislead the public and fear-monger. Calling it a "COVID Hospitalization" clearly makes people think that someone was having trouble breathing and had to seek medical attention for the disease, which is a misrepresentation. The reasonable conclusion from the statistics in that video is that COVID does not result in hospitalization nearly as often as thought (40% less, in some hospitals?).
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All-In [26968]
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I don't think it's necessarily that simple.
Jan 11, 2022, 9:29 AM
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What if someone went to the hospital with a "broken leg," was diagnosed with COVID while there, and the COVID part actually kept them there, besides any issues from the "broken leg"? Then that would certainly count logically toward COVID being the reason they are in the hospital. How granular can we get?
I think a lot of times the CDC and other authorities take a lot of flak for what is actually sensationalism among the "news" media. Sure, they should be as clear as possible in communication. And goodness knows they haven't been perfect. But what others do with the information they provide, how they frame it, how they editorialize it, is not their responsibility.
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All-In [31864]
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I think you, and others in this thread, aren't giving....
Jan 11, 2022, 10:29 AM
[ in reply to It does. It is yet a further erosion in the level of ] |
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enough significance to the number of data sources here. I think there are something in the range of 6000 hospitals in the US with a total number of beds of about 900,000.
I think it's unreasonable to expect very accurate data about COVID admittance in the middle of a pandemic with hospitals overloaded. First, I don't think it's an exact science. I'm assuming people catch COVID while in the hospital and they're forced to stay hospitalized based on their reaction to COVID. Does that count? Also, if someone is in the hospital for a non-covid reason and is determined to have COVID, don't the hospitals still have to treat them under COVID protocols? Then there's the stats about unvaxxed vs vaxxed in hospitalization. That data says the overwhelming number of people hospitalized for covid are unvaxxed. That leads to a reasonable conclusion that the number of COVID hospitalizations likely isn't over-inflated too much or that stat would be different.
The important things is the trending and patterns and how the hospitals are overloaded.
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All-In [26968]
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That's a really good point.
Jan 11, 2022, 10:46 AM
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The CDC doesn't have agents going around counting. They are just saying what the hospitals are reporting. It's hard to guarantee everyone is using the exact same standard. That's why these numbers should be talked about broadly.
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Legend [15730]
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Legend [15730]
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I could not disagree more. I think you are making excuses
Jan 11, 2022, 11:41 AM
[ in reply to I think you, and others in this thread, aren't giving.... ] |
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for either their willful disregard for accuracy in the effort to press a narrative, or pure laziness or ineptitude.
6,000 hospitals? Oh dear me. How can a federal government, that is trying to say that it wants to see documentation of every cumulative movement of $600 by every US Citizen for tax purposes, EVER going to be able to manage copying a one page memo SIX THOUSAND TIMES to tell each hospital exactly how it will track and report COVID cases? They're not gods, afterall! What do we want them to do, take an afternoon off from crafting yet another 10,000 page law? Nonsense.
No but seriously, it would be easy...super easy to do. There are entire organizations set-up to monitor this disease, it is quite easily the biggest issue of the past...I don't know...two decades? Clear parameters around how COVID cases are reported? Easy. Could be hashed out in a weekend. Heck, an entire computer program could be setup in about two months to collect the data...probably less. My guess is that there is already a software in place and would just need parameters adjusted to clearly splice the data.
And I've already said that a person admitted with a dislocated shoulder who tests positive for COVID is material. It should be reported. It should simply be clear that he or she is not coming to the hospital BECAUSE of COVID.
I'm not sure what your vaxxed vs unvaxxed point is. I'm responding only to the video where the guy said that up to 40% of "COVID Hospitalizations" were for things other than COVID. I'm not sure I need to splice the data any more than that to raise a red flag?
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All-In [31864]
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Is that really meant to be a serious reply?....
Jan 11, 2022, 12:37 PM
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First, why in the heck would I want to make excuses for the CDC? What would my motivation be exactly?
6,000 hospitals? Oh dear me. How can a federal government, that is trying to say that it wants to see documentation of every cumulative movement of $600 by every US Citizen for tax purposes, EVER going to be able to manage copying a one page memo SIX THOUSAND TIMES to tell each hospital exactly how it will track and report COVID cases? They're not gods, afterall! What do we want them to do, take an afternoon off from crafting yet another 10,000 page law? Nonsense.
We will agree on one word...nonsense. No where did I say that the federal government couldn't force data collection a certain way. Do you think it should? Or should it assemble data as it's currently collected and report on that? And I freely admit that I have no idea how that data is collected...I just suspect that it's not all that easy to distinguish these kind of cases given the volume of people these hospitals are dealing with in a given day and their resources for this kind of data collection.
And I've already said that a person admitted with a dislocated shoulder who tests positive for COVID is material. It should be reported. It should simply be clear that he or she is not coming to the hospital BECAUSE of COVID.
Ok, and if they person ends up having complications from said COVID and ends up staying longer in the hospital because of it...how is that handled? I'm sure there are 30+ other scenarios one could come up with that makes the data a lot harder to gather.
I'm not sure what your vaxxed vs unvaxxed point is. I'm responding only to the video where the guy said that up to 40% of "COVID Hospitalizations" were for things other than COVID. I'm not sure I need to splice the data any more than that to raise a red flag?
My point was that the data shows that unvaxxed are being hospitalized for covid at a much higher rate than unvaxxed (8-1 I believe). If 40% of the covid hospitalizations aren't really due to covid, then how in the world could that 8-1 figure be explained. In other words, I ain't buying that 40% of all hospitalizations recorded as being covid-related are just due to people being asymptomatic unknown positives.
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Legend [15730]
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Of course it's serious, although I hope you don't take
Jan 11, 2022, 12:57 PM
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offense to my sarcasm.
First, why in the heck would I want to make excuses for the CDC? What would my motivation be exactly?
I don't know...it wasn't an accusation so much as an observation - my claim is they should have provided more accurate information. Your response is that the nuance can get out of hand and they are overworked. This is literally the definition of making excuses. Those are excuses.
No where did I say that the federal government couldn't force data collection a certain way. Do you think it should? Or should it assemble data as it's currently collected and report on that?
Oh my, yes. Of course they should. Or it's not meaningful. 6,000 hospitals of raw, inconsistent data is a recipe for disaster. I don't think it's much of a flex to say that I've been in jobs where we had to aggregate data across numerous facilities. You'd be nuts not to give those facilities parameters about exactly how to report the data.
Ok, and if they person ends up having complications from said COVID and ends up staying longer in the hospital because of it...how is that handled? I'm sure there are 30+ other scenarios one could come up with that makes the data a lot harder to gather.
Yes, like I said, the army of employees at the CDC, the numerous think tanks they are no doubt employing, etc...should be able to hash out a sensible segmentation of data in about an afternoon. A couple days to get through the right approvals/sign-offs. I see no reason why they can't communicate "non-covid" vs "covid" vs "covid but admitted for other reasons" vs "covid but admitted for other reasons but covid symptoms required treatment beyond standard protocols for positives during stay".
If 40% of the covid hospitalizations aren't really due to covid, then how in the world could that 8-1 figure be explained. In other words, I ain't buying that 40% of all hospitalizations recorded as being covid-related are just due to people being asymptomatic unknown positives.
I mean, if the 40% is wrong then the 40% is wrong. Fine. My argument is simply based on that finding being correct or reasonably accurate. But really...as I understand it (and who can keep it straight?), vaccination reduced the chance of A) getting the disease and B) the severity of the disease, prior to Omicron messing everything up. If that's the case, it would make sense to me that the majority of patients who tested positive were unvaccinated. If they only tested people with symptoms, even more so...those symptoms may have been a headache or cough...not something that required hospitalization.
Bottom line - the data should be accurate. We all know how political this is, so don't create a situation where it looks like the books are being cooked. Especially when the data is not that hard to gather.
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All-In [31864]
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My understanding is that the CDC is somewhat limited...
Jan 11, 2022, 1:34 PM
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to collecting data through the state health departments. I'm not sure the CDC can mandate COVID data collection past what the states have set-up. If they did, like most other things where the fed gets involved past its constitutionally allowed power, it would have to make receipt of federal funds contingent on complying.
I don't believe I've ever claimed anyone at the CDC was over-worked...not sure where you pulled that from. I'm simply pointing out that I think it's a lot more complicated and with a lot more moving pieces and data points than you're considering.
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Legend [15730]
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I thought you were saying hospitals were overworked,
Jan 11, 2022, 1:39 PM
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which I agree.
And I know you're saying it's "a lot more complicated and with a lot more moving pieces and data points than you're considering." And I disagree.
And look...if the CDC has significant limits on the ability to mandate the structure of data it receives, okay, I'd love to hear that. Earlier in the pandemic they were saying the CDC had the ability to close down businesses, but sure...maybe now they respect the Constitution when it comes to...accurate data collection. Maybe hospitals are pushing back on supplying accurate data to a central location on the pandemic of our lifetime like an anti-vaxxer who refuses the vaccine because "Freedom."
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All-In [31864]
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Who said CDC could close down businesses?....
Jan 11, 2022, 2:42 PM
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And look...if the CDC has significant limits on the ability to mandate the structure of data it receives, okay, I'd love to hear that. Earlier in the pandemic they were saying the CDC had the ability to close down businesses, but sure...maybe now they respect the Constitution when it comes to...accurate data collection. Maybe hospitals are pushing back on supplying accurate data to a central location on the pandemic of our lifetime like an anti-vaxxer who refuses the vaccine because "Freedom."
I believe everyone has agreed that any kind of shut-down has to be done at the state and local levels. If they didn't, they were wrong.
No offense, but you seem to be mixing a lot of "but THEY said this, so this" in to your position, which doesn't really hold much water to me.
Anyway, you say they're either incompetent or purposefully misleading...I am just guessing that it's a lot more complicated than you give it credit for.
I respect your right to be wrong 
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Legend [15730]
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"I respect your right to be wrong"
Jan 11, 2022, 3:27 PM
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And that, sir, is all I've ever asked for.
Sorry, it was Pelosi saying that the CDC could extend the eviction moratorium.
Anyway, good talk as always. Onward.
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All-In [34100]
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Bear in mind...
Jan 11, 2022, 10:39 AM
[ in reply to Does it really matter?.... ] |
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you're arguing with a Tnet post with a link to a tweet containing part of a CNN video.
When I hear the word "information," or "facts," this isn't exactly he sort of thing that comes to mind.
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All-In [34100]
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Re: Bear in mind...
Jan 11, 2022, 10:41 AM
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Just to clarify my last post.- Tnet post
- linking to a tweet
- containing part of a video
- from CNN
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All-TigerNet [10867]
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It's much more than that, but nice to be proven right
Jan 11, 2022, 9:22 AM
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yet again.
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All-In [31864]
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You haven't been correct about anything...
Jan 11, 2022, 10:31 AM
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literally nothing you claim has any semblance of being correct or based in any kind of scientific reality.
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