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Oculus Spirit [80006]
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CU Medallion [58376]
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If Clemson wanted to have a top 20 basketball program,
Nov 3, 2021, 10:32 PM
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Brownell would indeed be on the hot seat. But, we don't and he's not.
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All-In [43994]
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I’d argue that if Clemson wanted to have a top 20 basketball program
Nov 3, 2021, 10:58 PM
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the administration would start with things like giving the head coach a higher budget for assistants (currently below the national average) and prioritizing basketball events (rather than relegating the basketball program to an outdoor location for the preseason pep rally).
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CU Medallion [58376]
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Maybe so. Either way, and regardless of the reasons, it's
Nov 3, 2021, 11:29 PM
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clear that the powers that be are totally satisfied with finishing 7th place in our conference. That much is not up for debate, and I find that very disappointing.
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CU Guru [1893]
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Re: Maybe so. Either way, and regardless of the reasons, it's
Nov 4, 2021, 11:49 AM
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And extremely depressing for those of us who actually follow the basketball team.
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110%er [9677]
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Ya…we know..
1
Nov 4, 2021, 8:38 AM
[ in reply to I’d argue that if Clemson wanted to have a top 20 basketball program ] |
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Okay, I’ll try again here.
Do we just not have the “right” coaching staff in place?
Or…
Would our current coaches do a better job if they got paid more?
It has to be one of those two in your mind. I really want to know which one it is, Judge.
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Legend [19567]
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I recall a coach who took less money for himself
Nov 4, 2021, 8:41 AM
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so he could pay assistants more and build his program. When he built the program, he reaped the benefits
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I recall a coach who took less money for himself
Nov 4, 2021, 9:11 AM
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Was that said coach at a program that was in the bottom 3 of program expenditures for their given conference? Or had that same schools coach been consistently in the top 3 of program spending and then finished mid-tier at best.
Keep in mind, Clemson spends $3M.5 less than the "average" ACC school, heck, we spend $2 less than the average SEC school. AND we spend less than the average of ALL power five +BE programs. What we spend on the basketball program would be about what you would expect for a upper/mid tier American or A10 team. Even looking at the median, we are behind and only start to eclipse the PAC12 - bcause they have some really cheap programs like Washington State - that when the had their new young coach take them to the Sweet16 - they cut his recruiting budget. Ticked him off enough that Tony Bennett decided to take the UVA job because they were throwing money at the BB program (and the Mrs is from NC).
We spend on the same tier as Mizzou, Wichita St. and Memphis.
Wake me up with that argument when we are spending 15 million on the program at the least, if not 20 million.
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Heisman Winner [139882]
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Where would the extra money come from and...
Nov 4, 2021, 9:32 AM
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what would our return on investment be if we spent $15-$20 million per year on basketball? This is a serious question.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Where would the extra money come from and...
Nov 4, 2021, 10:08 AM
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Obviously from the athletic budget, duh. Ok, I jest.
Good question.
First, Baskeball, like football is a donor sport. Meaning it pulls in a net (lol) profit. We could be spending more than an extra $1m in basketball just from basketball revenue. But I guess that is good? After that, and really for Basketball to get where it needs to be, it will need to become a donee sport. At least to see if there is a capacity to grow. Heck, those ADIDAS payoffs are tricky to fund.
But here is another take - Comparing football expenses to basketball expenses (pre Covid). Duke UofL and CUse all spend more on football... but the basketball to football "expense" is a lot more telling.
Duke spends $0.44 on basketballs per $1 on footballs. UofL is $0.40 and Cuse is $0.35.
Now shooting from the hip, football is about $55-60 million in expenses correct? Basketball is $8million. Lets take that 8/55 ratio and we spend $0.14 on basketball to football and now that gap would need to close for us to take basketball seriously.
Our ROI on basketball, well we will need to look at our closest football competitor - FSU. They are spending the money on BB nowadays. $16 mil I think? Still, their pre-covid numbers were generating $15M in revenue and spending $13M - now they upped everything since and I can't believe that football is bringing in as much money.
So, would FSU's "success" of late be worth spending 13-16M for? For either football or basketball? They held on to a coach for a long time and played the long game while doing a lot of upgrades. Would FSU at their current level in BB be "good enough" for Clemson for their Basketball ROI.
Then again, while FSU is one example, the inverse would be NC State...
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Legend [19567]
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So, where are you getting those dollars from in the
Nov 4, 2021, 10:21 AM
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current athletic budget? What Peter are you robbing to pay Paul? You use FSU as a comparison. Hamilton has managed to bring in 5 star recruits regularly. As a result they're in the tourney every year, generating more revenue, allowing more to be spent. Their success has led to more money. Dabo actually used the same approach. He bet on himself, and he won
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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The Brownell supporters miss that key point.
Nov 4, 2021, 10:29 AM
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If he would build it up, the rewards would flow. They want to put the cart before the horse.
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Legend [19567]
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I'm not a Brad basher
Nov 4, 2021, 10:32 AM
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but ultimately, recruiting is about the head guy, especially in basketball
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CU Medallion [58376]
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That's huge. I'm not blaming all of this on Brownell either,
Nov 4, 2021, 10:50 AM
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but even with our facilities, lack of tradition, etc, even with all of our limitations, I can't help but believe that there are other coaches out there who could recruit better than Brownell. In my mind, that's a given. Can we afford such coaches? Would any such coaches consider Clemson? I don't know, but I do believe that if what you are doing isn't working (and it's not), at some point you have to make a change. I don't know enough about all of the young coaches around anymore who may be a fit for such an opportunity at Clemson, but it's absurd to think that there is NOBODY out there that could not recruit reinvigorate interest in the Clemson basketball program, breathe some new life into it, and recruit a little better.
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CU Guru [1893]
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Re: That's huge. I'm not blaming all of this on Brownell either,
Nov 25, 2022, 2:49 PM
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Totally agree. It's all about recruiting and then having the assistant coaches to get the most out of the talent. BB obviously cannot recruit at a sustained high level. So, duh, give someone else a chance while increasing the budget for basketball assistant coaches. But, the bottom line is the administration does not care about the basketball program.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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Well, they may care, but they don't care enough to do any
Nov 4, 2021, 12:08 PM
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better than 7th place. That may be totally justified due to economic restraints or concessions, but that's just a fact. It's a decision they have made. It's what Clemson basketball is. and will be, barring a miracle or changes in the program.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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And as Oliver Purnell pointed out in his interview, football
Nov 4, 2021, 11:14 AM
[ in reply to I'm not a Brad basher ] |
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Saturdays in Clemson have the intensity of a Final Four basketball game. Excellent recruiting tool for him and we are much, much, much better in football than we were then.
We should be doing much better than we are in basketball recruiting.
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All-TigerNet [11428]
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Re: And as Oliver Purnell pointed out in his interview, football
Nov 4, 2021, 11:23 AM
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Saturdays in Clemson have the intensity of a Final Four basketball game. Excellent recruiting tool for him and we are much, much, much better in football than we were then.
We should be doing much better than we are in basketball recruiting.
That is what Oliver Purnell said in his interview that I posted last week. He said it was like a Final Four at football games.
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110%er [9677]
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Exactly. Just as Purnell was saying…
Nov 4, 2021, 12:11 PM
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You bring the recruits to a big football game and tell them “that’s what it will look like when you come here and help us win.”
It’s the truth. We’ve all seen it. It’s just the 10,000 version instead of the 80,000 version…but that’s how basketball works.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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There have been times when Littlejohn was packed and the
Nov 4, 2021, 12:29 PM
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crowd was blowing the roof off. It wasn't that long ago, but interest and enthusiasm around the program has gradually but steadily dwindled with the persistent mediocrity and realization that this is all there is or will be. The program needs new life, a shot in the arm ... it needs hope.
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110%er [9677]
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Yep.***
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Nov 4, 2021, 12:34 PM
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110%er [6825]
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Re: So, where are you getting those dollars from in the
Nov 4, 2021, 10:40 AM
[ in reply to So, where are you getting those dollars from in the ] |
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Regularly? No. Not to the point of a blue-blood program. He isn't tripping over 5 star talent. His real talent is more of finding roughs and working on improving those guys. Then again, you probably won't find BB targeting high-school dropouts with NBA talent either.
He has brought in a 5 star 4ish times in the last 10 years. Bacon, Issac, Williams, and Barnes. More of these of late rather than a consistent line. The last three were the 1 and done crowd as well. I am holding out on Cleveland - TBD. Granted, for us, that would be amazing, but that is as much as FSU's investment and LH and company being able to swing it. We have been building our recruiting rankings as well. But keep in mind LH just just start recruiting 5 star from the beginning. It took him a while to get to the point where he would be considered by those talents. He dealt with fringe NBA talent for the first near decade at best (where we are now). Even at Miami (and of dubious dealings) his success was Jones and Salmon and those were know "good talents" that evolved into prolonged NBA talents. I don't know how Miami landed BOTH of those guys and my guess it was not just LH sales pitch.
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Heisman Winner [139882]
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To be clear…
Nov 4, 2021, 10:34 AM
[ in reply to Re: Where would the extra money come from and... ] |
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I’m not advocating we get rid of CBB, my question is strictly cost/benefit for the sport, regardless of coach.
The basketball program with the most revenue in the country is Louisville. If we compared their basketball income to the football income (public only) of schools from around the country, they wouldn’t be in the top 25. In other words, the ceiling is much higher in football.
FSU is a good example. They are now spending $16,000,000 + on men’s basketball each season. Their men’s basketball revenue is $16,000,000 +\-. Other than possible program exposure, what has been the benefit? Our men’s program is actually healthier financially at this point. We don’t bring in as much, but the men’s side does turn a modest profit.
I agree on the donor aspect. If basketball spending increases are from donors, great, but there is no way, from a financial standpoint, that more money should be diverted from football to basketball. Football is the cash cow. Our other sports exist because of football, football exists in spite of our other sports, basketball (men’s/women’s combined) included. And that’s not a knock on any of our other sports, it’s just a fact. The only real hope for the donor solution to work is for our program to generate interest. Unfortunately, it doesn’t do that.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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Nobody here can answer that, but the point remains ...
Nov 4, 2021, 10:36 AM
[ in reply to Where would the extra money come from and... ] |
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whether it's a "choice", or a hard reality due to economic limitations, 7th place in conference is it for Clemson basketball, unless Brownell and staff can work some kind of miracle, which he hasn't been able to do in 11 years here.
7th ####### place. Let that sink in. There is no plan, no real effort to do better. No matter the reason, no matter how justified, that sucks ###, and is extremely discouraging and frustrating.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Nobody here can answer that, but the point remains ...
Nov 4, 2021, 11:02 AM
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7th place of 15 schools whereby six of those schools have won a national championship in my lifetime or since our first NC in football. Heck, we were still stuck in 7th when there was only 7 teams in the conference. Anyone else want to roll the ball on the Larry Shyatt invitational? Want to trade places with Wake? Or do you want to go to the Barnes era.... and finish mid-table... wait. 6th or 4th is the option out of 9 teams. Even then he knew we were not focused on the sport.
No effort? Sometimes the effort to go from beyond the dumper to mid-table is a big task. Considering it is now harder to build a mon-blueblood program, improving uphill has been a success.
FYI, we were the 3rd best team last season. So don't give me the "7th" crap.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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Bull ####. We have averaged 7th place over Brownell's
Nov 4, 2021, 12:21 PM
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tenure. The average is 6th place over the last 4 years. 7th place over the last 3 years. 7th place over the last 2 years. So, there is absolutely no trend up. Zero. Yeah we had a 3rd place 4 years ago, but it's downright pathetic if you are going to hang your hat on that. Clemson IS a 7th place basketball team. To pretend that that's somehow good or something to be proud of because we were even worse than that at one time, or because our competition is really good, is sad. In fact it's coot-like.
I am simply pointing out the reality - Clemson basketball IS a 7th place program. That's what it IS. If you think that's good, then good for you. As someone who has been a die hard Clemson fan for their entire life, I find it extremely discouraging.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Bull ####. We have averaged 7th place over Brownell's
Nov 4, 2021, 1:07 PM
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We were the 3rd best team last year. I am proud of that. We have done that twice in the past 4 years and our "worse" was a 9th place in between. Even when Ellis finished well, last place was on the table for the next year. To shuck and claim we were 5th without context is the coot-like move. Coots think they can just find the next savior coach without taking time to build a culture and a program.
With the odd Covid schedule, we had the toughest conference opponents. We played the upper half much more than the lower half of the conference nearly 2:1 and we finished 10-6 in conference play. We were 6-4 against teams 8th (not counting us) or better in conference and 3-1 9th or worse (Duke being the L). "VaTech" went 2-2 against upper tier teams, three of those were at home. 8-1 against those ranked 9th/Duke or worse in conference. They avoided @UVA and FSU, UofL, UNC, and even @NCState. They would have likely done 1/2-5/6 in those games. Even GT got at least some help in the scheduling. Meanwhile we swapped BC for UofL a well as shuffled off NC and Pitt. We would have likely been at least 12-6 if we played the 2-11 BC or the 7-11 ND game (since that would have been during their 4 game skid. They were not winning at lot at home as they had one of the worst home records for a non-2 win team.
So scheduling and record ranking are messed up, so we have had two seasons in the past 4 years were we were ranked third or the 3rd best (and the NCAA seeding last year supported this).
Now compare this to NC State -a BB program with expectations and is willing to spend more on the program. Keatts has placed 3rd, 8th, 6th, 9th. Add in Gott-fired. 4th, 4th, 7th, 6th, 13th, 13th.
We have been as good if not better and more consistent than NC State and a lot more stable. That should speak volumes.
FYI, if you bothered to compare Barnes' best 4th place finishes and apply 4th of 9 to a 15 team conference, it would be 6.67th place finish.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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What a laughable stretch! We finished the regular season
Nov 4, 2021, 5:07 PM
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tied for 5th place. We were seeded 5th in the tourney, and lost in the first round to the 13th seeded team. TERRIBLE, but go ahead and spin that in a positive light. Then as a 7th seed, we lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament to 10th seeded Rutgers. YEHAW! That's not good, that's nothing to be proud of - that's bad. But, go ahead and spin that too. In the final coaches poll, Clemson was unranked, with 4 ACC teams being ranked higher or receiving more votes than Clemson.
FACTS: We were 5th best team in the ACC last year, in terms of regular season finish, and final polls. We choked-time at every step in the post season, when we had a chance to prove and show the world waht a great job Brownell was doing, and how good Clemson basketball really was. Turns out we were 5th best. Yu can dream and fantasize that we were 3rd best, but we were not.
We finished 3rd THREE years before that, with 9th and 8th place finishes in between, which, as I said, averages out to a 6th place finish over the last 4 years. We have only finished higher than 7th 4 out of Brownell's 11 years.
Again, if you are happy with averaging 7th place, and not trending up (as I have factually demonstrated), that's fine. That's up to you. Just accept that you are fine with mediocrity, admit it, and move on.
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110%er [9677]
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Still doesn’t answer my question. I’ll try another way.
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Nov 4, 2021, 9:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: I recall a coach who took less money for himself ] |
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A. Our current coaches need to be replaced.
B. We need to pay our current coaches more…then they will do a better job.
Please choose one. Is it A or B?
Still asking Judge Keller. But anyone may participate.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Still doesn’t answer my question. I’ll try another way.
Nov 4, 2021, 10:20 AM
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False Dilemma & Strawman Fallacy
C: IF we want to invest, going after higher profile assistants requiring more salary is the way to go. The allowing the recruiting and development budget and resources to follow.
D. We need MASSIVE investment in our capital projects. We still lag far behind other programs with our new digs. They are nice (not an embarrassment) but 15 years before their title, UVA spend $170M on their basketball facility. We are just now getting around to 1/3 of that.
1. It is clear that BB can and does consistently coaches above the individual talent on the floor. I am fine with his level of success given the investment in the program. We have a bargain basement budget and mid-town success. I am fine with the current salary for BB - he is mid pack and considering that other coaches are making as much with better staff support, well, I am fine him being a little higher than average too.
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110%er [9677]
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Nope.
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Nov 4, 2021, 10:23 AM
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Judge specifically and repeatedly says the budget to pay basketball coaches is too low.
This would absolutely mean one of the two choices I presented would have to be true, in his mind.
But congrats on using the trendy “strawman” word.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Nope.
Nov 4, 2021, 10:52 AM
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Yes, our assistant pay is too low. It both limits who we can bring in and who we can keep. It isn't about how much we are paying #### Bender. Rather about how much we are paying for his position compared to other and how many of the recruiting/talent assessment
Say you offer a $10 a hour job, your competitors offer a $14, $18, and $22 an hour wage for the same work. Who do you think is going to get the better staff. It does not matter if Bender is making to 'motivate him" but rather look at the staff BB can bring in.
And yes, it is an actual strawman here. You keep pushing that the debate is over the compensation for current personnel on the staff vs looking at a the compensation of staff units at other schools. Thus if you bother to google strawman definition here you *should realize that you are "intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument."
I didn't major in philosophy for the fun of it, it was all for winning interwebz
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110%er [9677]
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Okay, you sort of gave your answer.
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Nov 4, 2021, 11:20 AM
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You think the budget needs to be increased so we can replace the current coaches (at least some of the assistants).
That’s all I was asking.
Originally asked Judge K (numerous times)…but thank you for your input.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Okay, you sort of gave your answer.
Nov 4, 2021, 11:56 AM
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*Expanded and improved
Thus when staff moves around we can offer more to bring in better. When you do find a great talent, you can retain them longer (what would have happened if we were able to retain Smart for 2 more years?) or that when someone like Goins leaves you can poach better coaching pools. I am curious to see how Kareem does and I can't really fault Bender's development of our guard play. That being said, our coaching staff is extremely young (indicator of pay) and keeping some of those young guys when the develop will be key. Then again, other programs can bring in former NCAA dancing level HC on as assistants so, go figure. For example, my brother is in the college coaching world. He was the HC at a small program for a few years, all time winningest coach (.600 at a place that historically was 0.439) and a NCAA tourney appearance. However, he took an assistant gig at a NC aspiration power program that paid more than his HC gig. That is what happens and what non-power schools have to deal with on both the HC and Asst level.
Putting character issues asside, when was the last time someone like Dino Gaudio was brought on as a assistant? UofL did that when he was ousted as Wake's last successful coach (20 wins back in 2010).
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All-TigerNet [11428]
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Re: Okay, you sort of gave your answer.
Nov 4, 2021, 11:59 AM
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So you have defended your argument well, but when would you make a change? If Brad goes three or four season's without another NCAAT?
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Okay, you sort of gave your answer.
Nov 4, 2021, 12:32 PM
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It really depends. Are we robbed from the NCAA like in 13/14? Are we a cusp team like 18-19 that was left out because we lost by a point to NC State in the ACC tourney? Are we sitting 6-12 in conference for three years? Are we having shoe deal bringing attention to the program?
If you asked me after the Yale 2019 game, I was beyond ready to move on. I was downright ticked. We were out hustled, outplayed and outcoached at home. Yale was a good team but we should not lose that one and be beaten on all sides of the floor. Even if our shots are not falling, we should be playing harder, not whooped. It looked like our players gave up.
That being said, I think we recovered after than debacle. Coach reclaimed the lockerroom And while 19-20 was a "bad" season 9-11 in conference we beat freaking UNC in CH and then beat Duke so Brad got a pass. It was a add year where we would knock off three top 6 ranked teams and then forget tie our shoes.
If Brad does three of four without a NCAA but that one is a Elite 8 and the other three are 20 wins 10-10 in conference "cusp" seasons, I am fine. The NCAA is not the only meansure. If those three non-NCAA becomes 15 wins, 6-14 seasons and the dancing season is the 17-13 season and we happen to win the ACC because an early-season hurricane washes away the top 10 seeded teams, well, I am ready to move on (I kinda think this happened for UGA about a decade ago).
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110%er [9677]
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I know I’m “nitpicking” here, but…
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Nov 4, 2021, 1:17 PM
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We don’t know if beating nc state in the ACCT would’ve gotten us in the tournament in 18/19.
Everyone thought that game was a play-in for the big tournament. But the fact is…neither team got in.
Neither team was good enough.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I know I’m “nitpicking” here, but…
Nov 4, 2021, 2:16 PM
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I think that 24 point game against VaTech kept NC State out. Plus NC State was collapsing towards the end there.
I think we might have had a shot, we were 4-1 on an upswing and that one loss was to #5 UNC heartbreaker. The Cuse win earlier was likely a better thing and winning against state (who beat us on a buzzer beater) would have been a good argument. I think if we did well against UVA in the next game, it could have been a shot. We were playing better down the stretch there.
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110%er [9677]
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Fair enough.
1
Nov 4, 2021, 2:28 PM
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Unfortunately, we’ll never know.
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Legend [19567]
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All-TigerNet [11428]
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All-TigerNet [11428]
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110%er [6825]
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All-TigerNet [11428]
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Re: Still doesn’t answer my question. I’ll try another way.
Nov 4, 2021, 11:08 AM
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lol. How do you know how up to date those figures are?
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Still doesn’t answer my question. I’ll try another way.
Nov 4, 2021, 11:12 AM
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Well, I was intentionally trying to pull pre-covid numbers (2020 reporting on 2019) for the most part because Covid numbers will be wonky before it returns to the mean. If I could spot some updated info that wasn't odd (you have to be careful with ND as their media contract goes into Breys contract funny). Easier to look at public schools... but as far as verifying the figures, it isn't that hard if they are providing references. Verify those. Takes only a few moments.
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CU Guru [1893]
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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He might be safe
Nov 3, 2021, 10:34 PM
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Because we accept mediocrity in BKB.
But if you took a Tnet poll I think around 70% would want him replaced
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All-TigerNet [10809]
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Re: He might be safe
Nov 4, 2021, 10:34 AM
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Yep. A Clemson football coach only making three post season bowl appearances in 10 years (compared to three NCAA tourney appearances) would be long gone.
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All-TigerNet [11428]
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Re: I think we all believe that brownell is safe
Nov 3, 2021, 11:31 PM
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Interesting the buyout is only $2 million. Jeff Goodman has a point. Still think Brad is OK after this season, but if they have a really bad season that buyout is easy to go back to and say maybe it is time. I think they would have to be way under .500 for that to happen.
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All-TigerNet [11428]
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Re: I think we all believe that brownell is safe
Nov 4, 2021, 9:31 AM
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We spent money on the new facilities. The figures you look at don't look in to those costs.
If there ever is a change, and we wanted to talk to some real good coaches we would have to offer more money into the program, and feel like we would with DRad. He is not going to offer more money into the program with what we have been getting with Brad.
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Starter [377]
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Re: I think we all believe that brownell is safe
Nov 3, 2021, 11:36 PM
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Listen…I think Brownell is a good basketball coach that could be really successful at certain places in certain situations…great defensive coach, good fundamentals coach who knows the game in a blue collar type of way…not sure he is a great fit for a program like Clemson though…he’s in a bind…great conference with many blue bloods and several others that have won Nattys or been to final fours…Clemson does not recruit itself in basketball and let’s face it, his personality isn’t the one that everyone is automatically attracted to…on top of that…his style of play is boring at best, even when we are winning…which is hard to get energized by therefore our crowd presence and enthusiasm isn’t all that great either…he’s done just about as good as one with his skill set could do at a basketball institution with our basketball skill set…and that’s not bad at all…but it’s not entertaining and not all that successful and that’s not a good combo…no doubt in my mind that he is a much better coach than Purnell but let’s face it…those teams were much more exciting and entertaining and gave us much more hope…false hope to be sure but at least there was hope…anyway…Go Tigers!!!
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Starter [377]
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Re: I think we all believe that brownell is safe
Nov 3, 2021, 11:38 PM
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For an analogy … watching Brads teams…win or lose…is like watching our football team this year…winning is good but watching it just isn’t enjoyable Iah and that’s a major problem for him!!!
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Agree for the most part, but Brad's coaching ability is
Nov 4, 2021, 9:45 AM
[ in reply to Re: I think we all believe that brownell is safe ] |
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overrated. I don't get the defensive expertise that he's supposed to have. Purnell was a better coach who could adapt his style. Brad is a one trick pony and I can't figure out what that pony can do. Clemson was ranked 305th in scoring last year. He needs to fire his offensive coordinator at the very least.  ">
He doesn't have the charisma, recruiting ability, or player development skills to build a great program at Clemson.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Agree for the most part, but Brad's coaching ability is
Nov 4, 2021, 11:28 AM
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I think you inverted Purnell and Brownell's name there.
Purnell was the one-trick pony. He could not adapt anything outside of his style and I think Georgia Tech is still running the layup drill against him.
Still, Purnell wasn't the offensive specialist either. And looking at the college talent pool, there are more defensive talents than offensive guys thus anyone who can generate points is going to a big school more times than not.
Brad's players do play as a unit better than the sum of their parts. That is coaching. I will agree it is less "exciting" but we are winning more now than we have been. Even during the Cliff Ellis days, he would go from 10-4 to 2-12. Right now our "down years" are only just slightly below .500.To build a great program, first you have to build a program - not a OP gimmick.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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If Purnell was a one trick pony(which he was not) then brad
Nov 4, 2021, 1:04 PM
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is a no trick pony.
Basketball was so much more fun before Brad arrived. On that we can agree. Clemson basketball under Brownell can be best characterized as a malaise.
The Brownell ship has sailed from a fan standpoint. They've tuned him out. At this point, a change of scenery would be good for him and Clemson.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: If Purnell was a one trick pony(which he was not) then brad
Nov 4, 2021, 1:14 PM
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OP was more exciting every game... but you knew in about 5 minutes if the game was fun or not. Brownell keeps the "fun" hidden so he makes you wait it out and waiting is never fun.
but the most fun I ever had as a Clemson basketball fan happened with Brownell. January 11th 2020. Don't care, that rivals Watson to Renfrow for me. Dang, I was in tears.
Brownell is a flat-out better coach. Not exciting but at least he seems to be winning more and more. I also think that those pesky grey seats in Littlejohn make financial sense but it has basically removed the fun from the arena. That it isn't all on Brownell there. I will take winning over exciting any day.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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You guys try too hard to convince us all that what we are
Nov 4, 2021, 1:23 PM
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seeing is better than what we actually see and that Brad is a better program builder than he really is.
Even you have to agree that the fanbase has lost interest in Clemson basketball under Brad. Time for some new energy and enthusiasm.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: You guys try too hard to convince us all that what we are
Nov 4, 2021, 1:53 PM
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I think Brownell has built a nice little program here. Ho-hum sure, but at least we got something stable. We are not elite but we are way better off than most other ACC schools and that should say a lot. Wake has not won 20 games in 10 years. I think NC State is still missing Herb. Duke and Carolina are going to have to see if they can move on, and really only two programs (and I mean programs) have had more success outside of UNC/Duke than Brad's team - FSU and UVA. I am not sold on GT yet. UofL nearly imploded and Cuse, ND, Pitt, Miami has been doing the fade. NC State can't do more. We are actually in a good position now. The ACC has had major upheaval in the past and we were always at the bottom.
We didn't have much interest in basketball before brad either. Folks only tuned into OP after the 08 run. We only look up when football needs a distraction. Since most of Brads tenure seems to have been with our Football team playing into January... and that is hard to gain excitement when everyone is still on the fall sport.
Sure, we would pack LJ for the Duke/UNC games (or another ranked team) but even then grabbing tickets to everything else was fairly easy and attendance was mixed at best. Otherwise it was just more exciting to see if Ricky would finally lose it and assault someone.
I also think the expanded ACC also lessened the feel of the game. Seeing Wake, Duke, NC State, and UNC in a home and home always made it more exciting. GT helped Even UVA and Maryland.
Now, do we really care about BC, Pitt, Miami... even UofL and cuse had a soft edge to it. Good programs but really no fanbase overlap. VT is becoming more of a game but then I would rather face Maryland than Hokies. When you aren't getting all of your rivals or other teams at home, it makes it meh...
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Orange Blooded [4550]
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Re: I think we all believe that brownell is safe
Nov 4, 2021, 4:52 AM
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DRad has shown us he could give a rat’s behind about being anything more than mediocre in men’s basketball, which is great news for CBB and his cult follower. Sign me up for more 50 point paint drying slugfests!
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Orange Blooded [3367]
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Re: I think we all believe that brownell is safe
Nov 4, 2021, 10:11 AM
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As long as the team stays around .500 and every 2-3 years makes a little run, CBB is not going anywhere.
Sad to say it would take a couple 10-20 type seasons for him to get the axe.
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Orange Blooded [3367]
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Re: I think we all believe that brownell is safe
Nov 4, 2021, 10:11 AM
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As long as the team stays around .500 and every 2-3 years makes a little run, CBB is not going anywhere.
Sad to say it would take a couple 10-20 type seasons for him to get the axe.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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The transfer portal may be the final straw for Brad.
Nov 4, 2021, 10:19 AM
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Before the portal, a player had to sit out a year and his supporters could always say "so and so is lighting it up in practice. Wait til next year when he is playing." Bought him some time. Now they can play immediately and we can see how good they really are or aren't.
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Orange Blooded [3945]
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Re: I think we all believe that brownell is safe
Nov 4, 2021, 12:03 PM
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The Deja Vu Thread - LOL. How many times has each of these members said the exact same thing. It never ends.
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Orange Blooded [4447]
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Re: I think we all believe that brownell is safe
Nov 4, 2021, 2:01 PM
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It’s obvious Adm is ok with being picked 11th and hoping to finish in middle of pack No one seems to push them as would happened in football If football performed like BB we would have a new coaching often
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