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Asst Coach [743]
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it's just insane to think that we would want to get rid of B
Mar 16, 2021, 7:41 AM
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rad Brownell.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: it's just insane to think that we would want to get rid of B
Mar 16, 2021, 7:48 AM
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He should definitely get another year.
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Recruit [90]
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Re: it's just insane to think that we would want to get rid of B
Mar 16, 2021, 8:14 AM
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It depends if you find making the NCAAs three times in 11 years acceptable. (and maybe the first year should not count)
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All-In [44032]
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We have made two of the last three NCAA Tournaments.
Mar 16, 2021, 8:18 AM
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Depends on whether or not you find that acceptable.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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At 16-15 last year and 9-11 in the ACC, we weren't dancing.
Mar 16, 2021, 1:45 PM
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Not even the NIT. We were not a good basketball team.
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110%er [6825]
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Orange Blooded [4150]
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Re: it's just insane to think that we would want to get rid of B
Mar 16, 2021, 8:24 AM
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As for me I will leave that decision up to D-Rad and company. I am considered an expert in my field and I do not want a group of T-netter making decisions that affect me. Same goes for any Coach at Clemson. If it was left up to T-netters we would change Coaches after every game.
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110%er [7972]
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Re: it's just insane to think that we would want to get rid of B
Mar 16, 2021, 8:31 AM
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Here is a tip for you. There is no one in the ADs office who is thinking about getting rid of CBB. Not-a-single-person. CBB has built the program from the ground up beginning with raising funds for the new facility which has resulted in better recruiting and making the dance two of the last three years.
Yes there are some folks who on message boards who keep the chatter alive but like a lot of digital only ideas this one has no legs. Just clueless folks who typically cherry pick stats to support their desired outcome.
We are currently on the upswing kicking off one of the best runs in Clemson's pitiful basketball history. Not sure we have ever had this good of a foundation without the worry of a coach seeking a better opportunity, sketchy players or a looming probation. Enjoy the ride...
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110%er [9690]
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I don’t totally disagree. But, to be fair...
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Mar 16, 2021, 8:35 AM
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Brad inherited a very good NCAA tournament team.
So “from the ground up” is a bit of a stretch.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I don’t totally disagree. But, to be fair...
Mar 16, 2021, 9:05 AM
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No, he didn't - That is the greatest myth in Clemson basketball outside of thinking Rick Barnes won more ACC games than he lost. He had a "ok" team with a bare cupboard. Nothing in the pipe and a lot" of over-valued recruits that were not as good as the "paper" suggested.
name me one NBA talent on the 10-11 team?
OP never made it dancing without Trevor Booker. Jennings, younger Booker were not even on the same development path. Still was the ONE player that was at least 3rd team ACC. Grant was the sole defensive standout (along with Stitt) If OP was coaching, it would have been a 6-10 campaign. Definitely would not be dancing. AS Still and Grant moved on, NONE of OP's high valued recruits did anything. Brad was KJ guy and Brad probally did more to develop Young than OP could dream of developing. It still took both Blossomgame and Knoko time to mature into their roles.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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ok... to be fair, I don't think using "NBA talent" is a
Mar 16, 2021, 10:02 AM
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viable way to compare Clemson coaches.
I think Brad has done a really good job lately, and we are on an upswing. He should not be "let go". But I also don't think it's fair to "assume" what OP's record would have been had he stayed. There is nothing about his tenure he that suggests we would have been down.
We won more games than anyone in the ACC other than Duke and Carolina in OPs last 3 years.
Could we have been down? Sure. But nothing about his tenure suggests we would have been. I think Brad has done a good job, and has definitely done better than OP when he's gotten to the NCAAT... but let's don't blindly dismiss what OP did.
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All-In [44032]
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Purnell’s recruiting his last couple of classes suggest that we would’ve declined.
Mar 16, 2021, 2:06 PM
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That’s pretty clear. His 2009 class was arguably the most overrated in Clemson history. More concerning was his 2010 class which had ONE player, and he wasn’t close to being a difference maker.
Purnell did a lot of good for us, but he knew he had maxed out at Clemson and realized that some lean years were likely ahead. He got out while his name and reputation were at an all-time high.
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110%er [9690]
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I respect your points. But I don’t think it’s a myth.
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Mar 16, 2021, 10:49 AM
[ in reply to Re: I don’t totally disagree. But, to be fair... ] |
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I saw it with my own eyes. Close up.
That was a really good team that was ready-made to make the tournament, and they did.
Once Brad got the job, it was his own responsibility to recruit.
And I just don’t see how inheriting a team which provided a successful season in his first year could not help him as a springboard.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I respect your points. But I don’t think it’s a myth.
Mar 16, 2021, 11:31 AM
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Compare the 07/08 and 08/09 rosters and tell me if the 10/11 is even close to that. And yes, I was in LJ.... I even watched OP coaching Depaul v Georgetown in person... in Clemson gear. This was the first year I missed Greensboro in decades.
BB over achieved in his first year. After Stitt and Grant were gone, what is left? Man the underclassmen were not very good after that. Young was alright but could not carry the team. It was easy to figure out to sit on Smith and his % would drop. KJ came in (Brads guy) and took a year behind Young.
OP went 9-7 with Booker and Potter - as well as Stitt, Grant and Young. Booker was the team for OPP's three year run. Potter was the 'rounder & length that made OP's defense work. Booker was OP's blind squirrel and without him, his press scheme would not have been as effective. Booker could move and protect the rim while the guards were pressing. That was a major advantage you can only get with NBA level talent from a "big man". BB had a "ok" team, and he still did as well as OP with his "best" team.
Now, take away the only NBA talent on the roster, did Brownell miss anything. Nope - that will tell you he was the better coach. Brad wasn't really able to get the recruiting going until after 2016 with facilities. Even then he has brought in better talent, but again it is about building depth as well as talent. OP didn't have the depth even with his schemes, he did not adapt.
Our 13/14 was the springboard year and we got shafted. That hurt more than any other development.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Brad's second best team was his first year at Clemson.
Mar 16, 2021, 1:51 PM
[ in reply to I respect your points. But I don’t think it’s a myth. ] |
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Entirely recruited by Oliver Purnell. Should have been a spring board to success instead of 7 years lost in the wilderness.
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All-In [44032]
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Brad’s first year was, at best, his third best team at Clemson.
Mar 16, 2021, 2:09 PM
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It wasn’t nearly as good as this year’s team or the Sweet 16 team a couple of tournaments ago.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Definitely better than this year's team, but not as good as
Mar 16, 2021, 2:13 PM
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the team 4 years ago(not 3. seems like an eternity). It took Brad awhile his first year to get over the fact that slowing the team down was costing us games. Had Oliver stayed, I have no doubt we would have done better Brad's first year.
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All-In [44032]
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You seriously think the 2010-2011 team was better than this year’s team?
Mar 16, 2021, 2:22 PM
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Based on what?
Overall:
22-12 (.647) versus 16-7 (.696)
ACC:
9-7 (.563) versus 10-6 (.625)
NCAA:
First Four versus 7 seed
The only argument for that 2010-2011 team being better is that we tied for fourth place in the ACC regular season, as opposed to 5th this season. If anything, that tells you how down the ACC was then compared to now if 9-7 is 4th place in the ACC and barely gets you in the NCAA Tournament.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Yes, and thanks for making my point for me.***
Mar 16, 2021, 2:48 PM
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All-In [44032]
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If your point is that the 2010-2011 team is better than the
Mar 16, 2021, 4:46 PM
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2020-2021 team because it finished 4th in a weak ACC, rather than 5th in a stronger ACC, despite a worse ACC record, as well as a worse overall record and a much lower NCAA Tournament seed, then you don’t have a very good point.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Definitely better than this year's team, but not as good as
Mar 16, 2021, 3:50 PM
[ in reply to Definitely better than this year's team, but not as good as ] |
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We would NOT been better if OP was our coach. With his his staring lineup in 10/11, OP would have lost his best defended and best overall player that he finished with in 09/10 at 9-7.
If you want to see how good we would have been if OP stayed around, find a game where Booker was in foul trouble. We basically kissed a win goodbye when that happened.
And for all that say the ACC was "harder back then" - lol - the ACC had only two ranked teams (Duke #3 and #20 Maryland) in09/10. It was one of the ACC's weakest years whereby both NC State and UNC finished with 5 wins in conference. 10/11 was only slightly stronger overall (at least had two top 10 teams). Would OP have been 9-7 again? Hard NO! OP would not have beaten FSU (a sweet sixteen team that year) nor would he avoid the head-scratcher losses to the BCs or Wakes. Maybe 7 wins in conference would be optimistic for him.
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110%er [7972]
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Re: I don’t totally disagree. But, to be fair...
Mar 16, 2021, 9:08 AM
[ in reply to I don’t totally disagree. But, to be fair... ] |
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Brad inherited a very good NCAA tournament team.
So “from the ground up” is a bit of a stretch.
A very good NCAA team which could not win a single game in the dance? OP was a gimmick coach. He found guys who were not highly recruited nor great basketball players but were very athletic. OP did nothing to build a program but did maximize wins against lesser teams with his style of play. He was able to squeeze every ounce of life out of the program before he took the train to Chicago. OP saw the writing on the wall meaning he knew his success at CU was not sustainable so he parlayed his success into a payday.
So the correct answer is CBB had to build the program from the ground up starting with fundraising for a decent facility. He had to build the roster with actual basketball players which was hampered by a locker room he was embarrassed to show to recruits.
The facts above are not in dispute to any fan interested in truth over agenda.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I don’t totally disagree. But, to be fair...
Mar 16, 2021, 9:20 AM
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I don't agree with Row but
I played pick-up basketball with Vernon every blue moon (same hometown/HS - I was a bit older). He is now an Assistant at LSU
The kid could outright ball and was one of the best floor generals/high IQ point guards and had the fastest hands I have seen. His only real hang-up was that he was just not a prolific scorer. Sure, he would make the guys at the Y look like idiots, but he was just a half-step behind being true NBA talent. If he was a bit sharper from the arc, it would have been all-american level.
OP could find the under-recruited guys that fit his system. Hamilton was likely a mid-major star but fit perfectly for OP. OP could find the Bookers, Mays, Hammons, Rivers but he would completely misread the Milton Jennings. It was like he could figure out what to do with guys like Vernon but could not spot fake talent - or other issues (Jennings).
I mean, compare the 07/08 and 08/09 rosters and tell me if the 10/11 is even close to that.
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Team Captain [495]
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Re: I don’t totally disagree. But, to be fair...
Mar 16, 2021, 9:41 AM
[ in reply to Re: I don’t totally disagree. But, to be fair... ] |
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“The facts above...” That seems a stretch on a number of levels. You could call OP a pejorative “gimmick” coach, but you can say the same about many HOF-level coaches - Jim Boeheim, Jerry Tarkanian, Nolan Richardson, John Chaney. I will concede, though, that BB had to build from scratch as the styles of play were significantly different and taking OP’s players and putting them in his system was unlikely. I would say your recruiting comment also distorts the facts. OP recruited athletes because that is what fit his style. In no way would I say BB has recruited at a clearly superior level.
To me, the bottom line in the BB debate is whether you think he is improving the program. I have an opinion, but it is worth exactly what you paid for it. You can say his teams made the tournament 2 of the last 3 years. You could also say we were middle of the pack in a historically bad ACC. Make your mind up and tell the administration what you think. Back it up with your support when they make their decision even if you are on the other side. These are your Tigers aren’t they?
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110%er [9690]
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Since you’re so interested in “facts” and “truth”...
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Mar 16, 2021, 10:51 AM
[ in reply to Re: I don’t totally disagree. But, to be fair... ] |
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Yes, that team did win a game in what you call “the dance”.
They also went to overtime in the semifinals of the ACC.
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Orange Blooded [3378]
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: I don’t totally disagree. But, to be fair...
Mar 16, 2021, 11:07 AM
[ in reply to I don’t totally disagree. But, to be fair... ] |
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Brad inherited a very good NCAA tournament team.
So “from the ground up” is a bit of a stretch.
Tired of this talking point. Brownell inherited 1 good team and he actually won a tourney game with it. After the first year, the talent was not good.... at all
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110%er [9690]
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How many good teams was he supposed to inherit?
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Mar 16, 2021, 11:11 AM
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Seems like a good team and good season in year 1 should help a coach.
And in what year was Brownell expected to begin recruiting, anyway?
Are you guys serious?
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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110%er [9690]
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He said 2 of the last 3 ncaa tournaments...
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Mar 16, 2021, 1:53 PM
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which is technically true.
Remember, there wasn’t one last year due to the China Virus?
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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No, he didn't.
Mar 16, 2021, 1:55 PM
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He said "making the dance two of the last three years."
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110%er [9690]
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Okay. I was referring back to Judge’s post, where he had it correct.
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Mar 16, 2021, 2:01 PM
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Hard to track these long threads sometimes.
And I’m not sure what “the dance” is anyway. I mean, maybe they went to a dance two of the last three years.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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It was intended to deceive people and it obviously worked.
Mar 16, 2021, 2:07 PM
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I have now seen several posters use the statement to create a false impression of Brownell's "success."
It would be nice if the progress of our basketball program was obvious and people didn't have to sell us after every season on how much better we will be next year.
The apathy of the fan base after 11 years is bad and getting worse. I hate to think what attendance would have been this year if Covid had not have happened.
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All-In [44032]
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Well, he couldn’t make the NCAA Tournament last year
Mar 16, 2021, 2:13 PM
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because there wasn’t one.
It’s sad that you and others are so bent on disparaging the Clemson basketball coach that you are holding it against him that he didn’t make a tournament that didn’t happen.
And you call yourselves fans?!?
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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AT 16-15 and 9-11 in the ACC, last year's team wasn't even
Mar 16, 2021, 2:17 PM
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close to making the dance.
Just a simple fact. Also, it's been 4 years since last made the dance. Not 3. Just a simple fact.
Let people decide based upon facts and not try to deceive them.
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All-In [44032]
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For someone who claims to be about facts and not deceiving people
Mar 16, 2021, 2:25 PM
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you really should double check your own “facts” before posting.
Our Sweet Sixteen team was in 2018, which is three years ago.
Swing and a miss for you (again).
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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This is our 4th season since we last made the Dance.
Mar 16, 2021, 2:46 PM
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We did not make the tournament last year or the year before because we were not good enough both years regardless of Covid.
So, we have made the NCAA Tournament twice in the last 4 years. Which, of course you know, but were trying to mislead people about. It worked to a certain extent as several posters are now stating that we've been to the dance 2 out of the last 3 years, which is false.
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All-In [44032]
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It’s amazing that you are continuing to dig yourself deeper into a hole.
Mar 16, 2021, 2:57 PM
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Again, our Sweet 16 appearance was in 2018:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%9318_Clemson_Tigers_men%27s_basketball_team
That was three years ago (2021 minus 2018 = 3).
I stated earlier that we have made two of the last three NCAA Tournaments. Those three tournaments were in 2018, 2019, and 2021.
There was not an NCAA Tournament in 2020 due to COVID. The season was canceled before conference tournaments were halfway over, so conference champions were not crowned and the NCAA Selection Committee didn’t meet or make choices for the tournament field.
As for 2019, we barely missed out that year despite a NET ranking in the 30s. Ted Valentine really screwed us in our ACC Tournament game against NC State. One of the absolute worst calls I’ve ever seen at the end of a game. But nonetheless, we didn’t make the NCAAs that year. (You can go ahead and count this one against Brad, since there was actually an NCAA Tournament that year.)
Again, Brad can’t make or miss a tournament that didn’t exist. So when we discuss the last few NCAA Tournaments, we can only judge him based on the ones that happened.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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If you want to pretend that Clemson had no basketball team
Mar 16, 2021, 3:04 PM
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last year, feel free. I remember you agreeing at the time that it was time for us to part ways with Brad. Don't blame you for that.
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All-In [44032]
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That’s not what I said at all, but I’m not surprised you’re trying to
Mar 16, 2021, 5:37 PM
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distract from our current discussion since you aren’t willing to admit you were wrong.
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All-TigerNet [10840]
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Re: it's just insane to think that we would want to get rid of B
Mar 16, 2021, 9:40 AM
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10 More years and CU maybe will make the Final 4. Lightning has to strike sometime.
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Letterman [299]
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Re: it's just insane to think that we would want to get rid of B
Mar 16, 2021, 9:52 AM
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Why do you say its INSANE. This program is under performing and losing yet again to a lower seed is simply not acceptable. Miami was #13 with 6, count them, 6 scholarship athletes on the bench. Clemson relies on defense and when it goes so does the scoring. We play lose with the ball and often keep games really close (even when we win) with poor decision making on the offensive end.
Coach B is a great person and represents Clemson the right way but we are obviously struggling to recruit and bring in above average talent. Compare the ten years under a man like Dabo to the 10 years under Brad and the narrative is very different. This was a year when the conference was weaker than usual and we couldn't win one conference tourney game. The inconsistency is what is troubling and its not a one year issue. Unless they can get back to bringing in some quality big men this story will play out again and again. Gone are the days of Tree Rollins, Elden Campbell, Dale Davis, The Grant Brothers, etc... One year transfers are no way to build long term continuity.
Insane, I don't think so, but as one person put it it's not for us to decide. We have leaders in place that make those decisions and do their jobs well. Coach B is a guy we all would like to see succeed but one and done in the tourney again will be a hard conversation. Its clear that something has to change if this group is going to become a true contender. I guess the real question is - what change?
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All-In [44032]
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One and done in the tourney again?
Mar 16, 2021, 2:31 PM
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You mean like EVERY SINGLE ONE of Purnell’s teams?
In case you weren’t aware, Brad has never gone one and done in the NCAA Tournament at Clemson.
Also, you committed the ultimate faux pas when discussing Clemson basketball by bringing up Clemson football. The two aren’t comparable in terms of history, administrative support, funding, or fan enthusiasm.
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