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All-TigerNet [10871]
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So imagine you wanted to play for the NFL, that was your
Mar 18, 2014, 1:50 PM
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dream...to be a professional athlete. Ever since you were a kid you've dreamed of playing on Sundays.
Is it fair that these kids must surrender themselves for three years with no actual payment (I'm talking cash $$$, not room and board), no ownership of their name, where companies can proceed to pimp their image out for ~15 billion annually, for which they won't see a dime?
I found it interesting that only 3 athletes in all the major sports combined have gone pro straight out of high school since 2006 (according to pay for play documentary). So the ONLY way to get to the NFL is to sign on the dotted line to a university?
I don't know exactly where I stand on this issue, but I like playing devil's advocate...thoughts? In particular, do you think it is fair for collegiate sports to be the only gateway for athletes out of high school to a pro career?
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All-In [29036]
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I hold 2 competing points of view
Mar 18, 2014, 1:56 PM
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1) People should be free to pursue within the market where their talents and efforts are best rewarded.
and
2) To pay players in the NCAA will be the death of college sports as we know it. There is simply no way the system can absorb and handle paying market value for their effort without basically spelling the death of all non-revenue collegiate athletic endeavors.
There simply is no easy answer to this one, except, I suppose, to stand on my initial principle and let the chips fall as the may.
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CU Medallion [55241]
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Re: So imagine you wanted to play for the NFL, that was your
Mar 18, 2014, 2:00 PM
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I say yes they should have to have college. But it should be for Baseball and basketball also. I love college sports and that is my reasoning Selfish I know
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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At least you guys are honest with your opnions +1s...
Mar 18, 2014, 2:03 PM
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I too don't won't to see it disappear and hope that some solution can be found that appeases both sides.
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All-TigerNet [12505]
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No one forces them to play college ball
Mar 18, 2014, 2:02 PM
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They just can't get drafted for 3 years. They could stay home and hit weights for 3 years and work any job they want. That's like saying that because you have to be 30 to be a senator that from 18-30 you can't make any $$. No, you just can't make it doing what you love yet.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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That's a good point and honestly, if being in a college
Mar 18, 2014, 2:06 PM
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weight training program gives him an edge at going pro, I'd almost argue that it is worth it. I'm not saying it probably couldn't be done without college, but for underprivileged kids, they'd probably never get the kind of training on their own that is needed for the next level.
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Standout [313]
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Re: No one forces them to play college ball
Mar 18, 2014, 4:35 PM
[ in reply to No one forces them to play college ball ] |
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The age requirement for being a senator, representative, or president is in the Constitution. It doesn't have to be right or fair or anything. It supersedes the Sherman Antitrust Act, which is one of the laws at issue in these NCAA lawsuits.
Let's be honest about all this. The NCAA and NFL have more or less colluded to prevent market competition for the services of players. If that happened in any other field of employment people would call it what it is, an illegal restraint on trade. But with sports we have to deal with affinity for particular teams (pro or college) and that clouds things for some people. People bend over backwards to find ways to declare that preventing someone from negotiating a market price for their services is somehow fair because they were given something of value (education, books, housing, food). That's just not the same as a market price for their services. Are some players receiving more than their fair market value by getting a scholarship? Maybe, but we cannot possibly know given the current situation. I know for a fact that some players are receiving lots less than their fair market value by merely receiving an education, as evidenced by the fact that they get big dollar contracts in the NFL less than a year removed from playing college football. But what is "fair" under the law is what you receive in an open market. That's what they deserve, that's what we all deserve. That this may have some potentially negative impact on college sports is not a good reason to ignore the law.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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I do feel like that is the reason many are quick to lash out
Mar 18, 2014, 4:48 PM
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at the players for demanding such things...simply b/c they don't like the idea of their football being threatened. So do you see the NCAA as a sort of monopoly on football talent? Is there any other alternative an aspiring football player can choose and be successful?
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Standout [313]
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Re: I do feel like that is the reason many are quick to lash out
Mar 18, 2014, 5:04 PM
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It's been turned into a de facto monopoly if you want to go to the NFL.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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What some on here seem to suggest is that college
Mar 18, 2014, 5:11 PM
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football is not the only route to the NFL, and while that is true, I think you significantly reduce your chances of making it to the NFL not playing for a University. So yeah, I can definitely see it be a "de facto monopoly" of sorts.
A similar suggestion is that you can become a successful businessman and entrepreneur if you really try, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone suggesting that an education will not help you achieve it. You will naturally go the route that gives you the best opportunity, but for aspiring NFL athletes, college is pretty much the only option.
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Orange Blooded [4542]
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Ever year some D2 players get drafted
Mar 18, 2014, 5:49 PM
[ in reply to Re: I do feel like that is the reason many are quick to lash out ] |
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They didn't even have a scholarship.
Theer are lots of pro bball teams in europe. There are arena fball teams, cfl, snd other pro snd semi pro teams to play for while you wait out the nfl's age limit.
And no one is preventing anyone from forming a new pro "developmental" league and paying anyone anything they can convince someone to pay them.
The ncaa has nothing to do with the nba and nfl age limits. They do set the rules for scholys. Feel free to do any of the above.
How much should a player pay a school to highlight a player and increase his future draft status. How much should a school get paid to pro vide the training, coaching, weight rom, dieticians, tutors, etc?
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Standout [313]
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Re: Ever year some D2 players get drafted
Mar 19, 2014, 10:08 AM
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"They didn't even have a scholarship."
I'm not saying those teams would be required to start paying their players. If those sports don't earn money, presumably the teams would decide not to offer payment to players.
"Theer are lots of pro bball teams in europe. There are arena fball teams, cfl, snd other pro snd semi pro teams to play for while you wait out the nfl's age limit."
Doesn't change the fact that college teams in the US have colluded with each other, via the NCAA, to cap employee compensation. In any other setting, that's considered illegal. And yeah, students are "employees." They provide services to the employer for the employer's benefit and are directed by the employer in terms of how to provide those services.
"And no one is preventing anyone from forming a new pro "developmental" league and paying anyone anything they can convince someone to pay them."
That may be true, but is not legally significant. In the context of employers in the US colluding to fix employee compensation it doesn't matter if the employers have a complete monopoly. The collusion itself is illegal regardless.
"The ncaa has nothing to do with the nba and nfl age limits. They do set the rules for scholys. Feel free to do any of the above."
That's true that the NCAA doesn't have direct control over the age limits. Although it would not shock me if there's been backroom dealing about this. But the NCAA doesn't just set rules regarding scholarships, it sets rules regarding compensation, which is wage fixing, and it's generally considered to be illegal.
"How much should a player pay a school to highlight a player and increase his future draft status. How much should a school get paid to pro vide the training, coaching, weight rom, dieticians, tutors, etc?"
This is something that all employers must decide. How much resources do they want to expend on paying and training their employees?
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All-TigerNet [14233]
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BS. College football is a free minor league for the NFL.
Mar 18, 2014, 4:38 PM
[ in reply to No one forces them to play college ball ] |
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Nobody is getting drafted if they haven't been playing college football.
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All-In [30593]
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The NFL is different...
Mar 18, 2014, 2:03 PM
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a kid going straight to the league out of high school will get hurt, period. The only player I've seen that MAY could have made the jump was Adrian Peterson.
The League is completely different than the NBA or MLB.
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110%er [9045]
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I agree - very few if any guys are physically.......
Mar 18, 2014, 2:09 PM
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ready and able to play at the NFL level coming out of high school, not to mention how much tougher the game is mentally in the NFL. They have to develop themselves before being ready for the NFL - physical size and strength is much more of a factor for an 18 year old player in football than it is in the NBA or MLB.
Also, IMO, if the NFL took guys straight out of high school it would water down the skill level in the NFL just like it's done in the NBA. The NBA was a whole lot better IMO when players played four years in college before turning pro.
Let's face it - college football is the minor leagues for the NFL.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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I think college football definitely serves as the minor
Mar 18, 2014, 2:12 PM
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league for the NFL, but the big difference is payment...for which the college kids don't get any. They are forced to accept a payment (an education/room and board) for which they may have no interest in.
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110%er [9045]
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But what's the alternative? Almost all of them aren't......
Mar 18, 2014, 2:17 PM
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physically ready for the NFL coming out of high school - they don't really have a choice. This way, they get to train and develop their bodies and skills so maybe they will be ready in three years or so.
How else would they be ready for the NFL? They can't learn all this on their own working out somewhere.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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I agree, the only way I can see it happening is if they were
Mar 18, 2014, 2:24 PM
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1) taken by an NFL team straight out of high school and developed within the NFL team (meanwhile getting paid) or 2) an actual minor league was developed for football to bypass universities (again getting paid but probably marginally less)
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Standout [313]
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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Yeah, no doubt the strength and conditioning that one
Mar 18, 2014, 2:10 PM
[ in reply to The NFL is different... ] |
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receives at a university better prepares them for a career in the NFL. Do you think Clowney or Watkins could've been just as effective straight out of high school though? I think there is a possibility. And who is to say that these kids would have to start immediately once going pro? Maybe the owners agree these kids need a year or two before seeing a gratuitous amount of playing time. But all the while, they'd be making at least six figures while training in the pros.
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All-TigerNet [14233]
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No. Sammy, Clowney, AP, would all be
Mar 18, 2014, 4:39 PM
[ in reply to The NFL is different... ] |
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physically ready out of HS.
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All-In [30593]
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No way***
Mar 18, 2014, 4:47 PM
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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How come? I could certainly see how these guys
Mar 18, 2014, 4:52 PM
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intellectual grasp of the game will surely not be quite up to par compared to if they'd stayed three years, but physically, are they really that different? Clowney only benched 225 20 times in the combine...whose to say a year or two in the NFL with his abilities would not blossom just as much or more so...
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110%er [9045]
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Another thing to remember is that............
Mar 18, 2014, 2:13 PM
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the vast majority of kids playing college football never make it to the NFL so having the chance to get a college education for free is pretty #### good if you think about it.
It's sad when they all start as freshmen to think they'll all make it in the NFL only to realize when their eligibility is up that they're going to have to work for a living the same as the rest of us. That's why a lot of these guys end up pumping gas because they blew their chance at an education.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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That is a dilemma. Unfortunately, I can see where academics
Mar 18, 2014, 2:20 PM
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are emphasized and promised in recruiting but are failed to be delivered once a student arrives on campus. Like the incident with UNC, I wonder if all recruits were aware of these crimes BEFORE attending the university or only afterward?
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: That is a dilemma. Unfortunately, I can see where academics
Mar 18, 2014, 2:32 PM
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ok so some schools cheat on classwork. That's a given. What % of high school athletes make the pros? Very small. The others who are on scholly get a darn good education at most schools that they would never get any other way. So they are compensated. Who is going to set the pay grade? Because the only way this would ever work is everyone in the same sport in every school get the same $$$. And what will you pay a football player vs say a woman on the rowing team.
Big can of worms folks. And once it starts all kinda lawsuits will happen. College sports could be history!
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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I fear it is the beginning of the end. I also feel like
Mar 18, 2014, 2:37 PM
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this 15 billion dollar a year is so lucrative (much more than exxon and McDonalds according to the documentary) that some means of compensation might be possible.
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All-In [29036]
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The problem is
Mar 18, 2014, 2:39 PM
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"Some form of compensation" doesn't end the debate.
If you open the door to paying players then you either say "All Div1A players receive X dollars" or "Pay what you want". If the former, then out of the woodwork will come every non-revenue athlete and program demanding payment for "equal work". If the later then you begin a bidding war that not many schools can endure.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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I don't think the second option could ever work...
Mar 18, 2014, 2:46 PM
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apparently, only a handful of these universities contribute to 6.6 billion of the overall revenue, nearly half. It's almost as if the money would have to be pulled from the universities based on their respective revenue, the distributed among all universities and sports.
I wonder how much $1,000 per student athlete would put a dent in the overall profit. The NCAA revenue is nontaxable according to the documentary, so it'd appear that some of that 15 billion could be dispersed without putting too big a dent in it.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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according to this website, there is 420,000 NCAA student
Mar 18, 2014, 2:53 PM
[ in reply to The problem is ] |
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athletes...if all were paid even just a $1,000 to appease these athletes, that'd be 420,000,000. I think that 15,000,000,000 could help cover that maybe, but there'd have to be a limit some where. Plus, I'm not sure where all this money goes to begin with.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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CU Guru [1552]
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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Yeah, I think so too. That'd probably be more of a temporary
Mar 18, 2014, 3:43 PM
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fix if anything...
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Standout [313]
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Re: The problem is
Mar 18, 2014, 4:39 PM
[ in reply to The problem is ] |
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Yeah, if we open the door to workers getting paid a market price for their work that will cause a lot of problems. We should apply this to the rest of the labor market. It sure would be cheaper to run a business if businesses did not have to pay workers a market wage rate.
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Standout [313]
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Re: Another thing to remember is that............
Mar 18, 2014, 4:37 PM
[ in reply to Another thing to remember is that............ ] |
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They don't get their college education for free. They work hard and provide a valuable service to the university.
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110%er [9045]
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There's no incentive for the NFL to develop their own.......
Mar 18, 2014, 2:29 PM
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minor league system like MLB has - not when the colleges can pay for it all as they always have been doing. Talk about having your cake and eating it too - the NFL has it made.
The colleges don't want to see this happen either - they don't want to lose the best high school players to some NFL farm system.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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Yep, I guess both the NFL and the universities benefit
Mar 18, 2014, 2:33 PM
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when it comes to developing players. I guess another way to look at it, is if the NFL truly wants you to go to a university and develop, then if you aspire to get that "job," you need to fulfill the requirements with the developing of the athlete as the "degree" of sorts.
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Orange Blooded [4542]
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You know, when I applied for my job, it said
Mar 18, 2014, 5:55 PM
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College degree and three years experience in a relevant field.
i should sue them for limiting my marketability.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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I suppose lol...
Mar 18, 2014, 6:14 PM
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Though degrees aren't necessary to get to the NFL, so education is obviously not of most importance to them. Which begs the question, why are they attending a university to begin with if no degree is attained? Are we really saying they are students first, athletes second?
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110%er [6781]
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Re: There's no incentive for the NFL to develop their own.......
Mar 18, 2014, 3:25 PM
[ in reply to There's no incentive for the NFL to develop their own....... ] |
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nobody is stopping someone else from doing it. If its really the players generating this kind of cash why has a venture capitalist not started a league?
Lets be real. We don't pay to to see players play the game, we pay to see players play while wearing a paw. and if all of the sudden the best talent was playing in another league and D2 athletes were promoted to playing at Clemson, Death Valley would still be full as long we were competitive in our league.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: There's no incentive for the NFL to develop their own.......
Mar 18, 2014, 3:36 PM
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^^^Dis
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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I do think that not just the value of the education, trainin
Mar 18, 2014, 3:43 PM
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and such, but the venue to display your talents is provided by college football.
The most equitable alternative is for it to go like baseball, with the NFL paying for their own minor league. Then you can separate the go-pro's from the college student-athletes.
As it is, forcing the NCAA to pay players will end college football as we know it, it will not end with players making big bucks.
But they should be allowed to pay a stipend (walking around money) as part of a scholarship. Academic schollies often do.
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CU Medallion [58311]
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The answer would be for colleges to do the right thing
Mar 18, 2014, 4:20 PM
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and make education the priority, with athletes having the same exact admissions and ongoing academic requirements as any other student. In my estimation, many of the players currently playing college football would not meet those requirements, and that would force the NFL to create it's own developmental league or farm system.
That way, people who were both academically prepared and capable, and wanted to play college football could do so, and people who were not academically inclined but just wanted to play football could pursue that all-out as well.
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CU Guru [1198]
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Re: So imagine you wanted to play for the NFL, that was your
Mar 18, 2014, 4:54 PM
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The average person PAYS the school for 4 years to get a degree in hopes of landing a job making a fraction of what NFL players make. Athletes get a free degree plus a chance at NFL riches. That sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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I think only a small percentage actually make it to the NFL
Mar 18, 2014, 4:58 PM
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and sustain success in it though. I still think a free degree is definitely worth something, so long as the player has actually got something out of it of course.
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