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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Expectations vs reality.
Nov 22, 2021, 9:33 AM
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Before the season started, we were going to be a really bad basketball team. Any time somebody posted positively about basketball, the same typical posters showed up to argue how bad we were going to be this year.
- Losing our best player was going
To be catastrophic
- we have no continuity due to transfers
- we are going to be significantly worse on offense
- we are going to be ridiculously small and won't be able to compete with good teams
- no depth with our big men.
The negativity was endless
These same people that were complaining about how bad we were going to be this year are the same ones that now expecting us to beat quality teams (on the road basically). To them there is no excuse for us to lose to #22 (who just beat Marquette by 16) and then beat WVU (another good team).
I am actually very pleased with our basketball team. I think we are going to make some noise in the ACC this year. These two games won't change that.
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110%er [9661]
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Trying to follow your logic here…
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Nov 22, 2021, 9:38 AM
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We were supposed to be satisfied that our basketball team was expected to be terrible.
And now we should be ecstatic because there’s a chance we may be mediocre again?
Is that what you mean?
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Trying to follow your logic here…
Nov 22, 2021, 9:47 AM
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No. The fact that you thought our team was going to be terrible this year, and you are now crying because we lost 2 road games to good teams, means you are emotionally unstable and you should probably get a grip.
It's fine to be disappointed that we lost 2 road games to good teams. I certainly am. But the delusional fans that show up on this board solely to bash our team and coach are beyond frustrating.
Are you saying that you were wrong about your preseason expectations and now that the season started you realize that we are a good team that should beat ranked teams on the road?
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110%er [9661]
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I didn’t make up the low expectations.
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Nov 22, 2021, 11:01 AM
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I had no idea what to expect. We never do anymore.
And I see you’re on board with the “road games” lie.
If you don’t know the difference between a neutral site game and a road game, you don’t know much about college sports.
Yes I know Brad called them “road games” in his press conference. I follow and pay attention to everything…because I care.
That was a pathetic passive aggressive slap at our fans by the head coach. He needs to worry more about how many players we have on the court, and making sure we don’t hold the ball for the entire shot clock when we’re losing.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: I didn’t make up the low expectations.
Nov 22, 2021, 12:06 PM
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I had no idea what to expect. We never do anymore.
And I see you’re on board with the “road games” lie.
If you don’t know the difference between a neutral site game and a road game, you don’t know much about college sports.
Yes I know Brad called them “road games” in his press conference. I follow and pay attention to everything…because I care.
That was a pathetic passive aggressive slap at our fans by the head coach. He needs to worry more about how many players we have on the court, and making sure we don’t hold the ball for the entire shot clock when we’re losing.
It played like a road came, and if you can't admit that you are lying to yourself. Both games played like road games for Clemson because each team had significantly more fans than us. They were way louder and even the announcers mentioned it in both games. Why can't we be honest about that?
I thought we dominated St B for most of the game. They went 11-12 from 3 in the second half. Our good shooters missed 5 wide open 3's at the end of the game. That was the difference in the game. Brownell coached a great game and we ran out of gas/just missed open shots. Simply put, Brownell put us in a position to win a game against a very good St. B team.
In the WVU game, we went on some great runs and they did too. At the end of the day, Their defense and length got to us. They executed and we did not. Do you think brownell told them to pass it around until the shot clock expired?I didn't like how much Chase Hunter played but at the same time, the team was obviously fatigued. MiddleBrookes played very early in the game and it was obvious that Hall was struggling in the second half.
Brownell was not without error. I put the Tech on him and that was an embarrassing and huge mistake. I didn't love his rotations, but I don't know the extent of illness and fatigue.
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110%er [9661]
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Re: I didn’t make up the low expectations.
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Nov 22, 2021, 12:31 PM
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1. A “road game” is when the other team is truly the home team and has the comforts and familiarity of their home facility, no travel, etc.
These were neutral site games.
If this team can’t be expected to play a complete game when they don’t have the majority of the fans…it’s gonna be a lonnnng season in the ACC.
2. There we go again with “Brad coached a good game…the players just missed shots.” How many more decades do we need to hear that?
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: I didn’t make up the low expectations.
Nov 22, 2021, 1:00 PM
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"It played like a road game". Be honest with yourself. I'm not saying it's a "true toad game"
Brownell did coach a good game against St. B. If we hit one of those shots we win, and we aren't having this conversation. We were in position to win the game. Our shooters missed the shots to win. They were open.
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110%er [9661]
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Re: I didn’t make up the low expectations.
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Nov 22, 2021, 1:08 PM
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Yeah I was actually wondering what “it played like a road game” even means. Sounds like a line of bulllcrap to me.
Maybe “Our team played like it was a road game.”
At least that sentence would make sense. But it’s still a pathetic excuse.
Since this thread began by talking about expectations…
Should we now only expect to win home games, and only if a desired number of fans are in the stands?
Oh, and only if our players make every shot. I almost forgot that one.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: I didn’t make up the low expectations.
Nov 22, 2021, 1:31 PM
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Ok, I'll dumb it down for you. Would you rather have your own fans pack the house and be very loud during the game, or the opposing fans?
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110%er [9661]
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I think you’re just trying to “dumb it down” for yourself now
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Nov 22, 2021, 1:36 PM
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because you realized you don’t understand your own previous comment either.
Do you realize you are feeling sorry for a sports team because they have to play some of their games when the other team has more fans in attendance?
Just take a moment and think about that.
And if that is going to be a legitimate problem for this team…then why should I have any expectation for a decent season?
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All-In [43989]
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Can you honestly not see how the Charleston games were
Nov 22, 2021, 2:37 PM
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a missed opportunity by our supposedly loyal, "loud and proud" fan base?
A tournament in our home state, several hours from our campus and within very close driving distance of thousands of alumni and fans. We are undefeated, The competition is very good. We should have a lot of fans there, right?
No. Not only did we not have many fans there, but we played teams from a long way away who had way more fans than we did. Not only that, but those fans were loud and involved and passionate about their team.
If you don't think a home court advantage might be worth a few points, then you don't follow sports.
The worst part of it all is that you and others continually blame our coach and players for not being exciting enough to generate fan interest. That's ridiculous.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: I think you’re just trying to “dumb it down” for yourself now
Nov 22, 2021, 2:42 PM
[ in reply to I think you’re just trying to “dumb it down” for yourself now ] |
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because you realized you don’t understand your own previous comment either.
Do you realize you are feeling sorry for a sports team because they have to play some of their games when the other team has more fans in attendance?
Just take a moment and think about that.
And if that is going to be a legitimate problem for this team…then why should I have any expectation for a decent season?
Common sense is obviously very hard for you.
It boils down to this..... would you rather have more Clemson fans or opposing teams fans at a neutral court game? Do you think it was a benefit to Clemson that our fans were vastly outnumbered in this games?
It is not the reason we lost, but the fact shouldn't be ignored.
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110%er [9661]
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Blaming failure on the fans is just ridiculous
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Nov 22, 2021, 2:58 PM
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and I think deep down you know that.
Yes, it would be wonderful to have a sea of Clemson orange at every athletic contest ever played. Maybe some unicorns could fly around, too.
It’s not reality.
None of us get paid $3 Million or a full scholarship for this. We attend games when we’re able to.
It’s the responsibility of the highly-paid coach and his team to overcome some challenges…not to complain about challenges.
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All-In [43989]
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Re: I didn’t make up the low expectations.
Nov 22, 2021, 2:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: I didn’t make up the low expectations. ] |
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1. No one said it was a road game. We said it felt like a road game, or was essentially a road game.
2. Brad did coach a good game. Certainly not perfect, but also not the train wreck you and a few others seem to suggest every time we lose.
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All-In [43989]
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People like Row86 can't admit that Clemson fans aren't
Nov 22, 2021, 2:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: I didn’t make up the low expectations. ] |
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perfect in their support and devotion.
They tell themselves that Clemson fans are the best, even for basketball, and that subpar support for basketball can't possibly be a fan problem. No, if we don't have passionate basketball fans, it's because the coach is boring or the players aren't good enough.
This ridiculous logic is usually accompanied by rare examples from the distant past of students camping out for tickets or Fike being loud or the fire marshal turning his head one time. It's pretty sad that they think we will take such examples seriously.
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All-In [43989]
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Were you at the games in Charleston?
Nov 22, 2021, 2:26 PM
[ in reply to I didn’t make up the low expectations. ] |
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Because if you were, you would know that they absolutely felt like road games.
Both St. Bonaventure and West Virginia had fans who were louder and greater in number than Clemson fans. It honestly wasn't even close to being comparable.
It absolutely felt like a road game, not merely a neutral site game as you claim.
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Orange Blooded [3276]
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Re: Expectations vs reality.
Nov 22, 2021, 9:43 AM
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Depth is an issue this year. The illness that kept Hemingway out of the past 2 games significantly influenced a couple of guys that played yesterday as well. The team is better this year than last, in my opinion. The problem is someone (hopefully the coaches) identify who "The Man" is so we know who is going to have the ball in their hands at the end of the game. The end of St Bonaventure was torture because no one seemed to know who was supposed to take the shot and we settled for a couple of heaves. PJ Hall as a sophomore is an upgrade over Simms as a senior in my opinion. Bohannon and David Collins are significant upgrades as well. I don't think Clemson has a chance to win the ACC this year, but a top half finish is possible with a trip to the Dance. Of course, it's also quite possible they crap the bed and lose more games than they win.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Expectations vs reality.
Nov 22, 2021, 9:49 AM
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Depth is an issue this year. The illness that kept Hemingway out of the past 2 games significantly influenced a couple of guys that played yesterday as well. The team is better this year than last, in my opinion. The problem is someone (hopefully the coaches) identify who "The Man" is so we know who is going to have the ball in their hands at the end of the game. The end of St Bonaventure was torture because no one seemed to know who was supposed to take the shot and we settled for a couple of heaves. PJ Hall as a sophomore is an upgrade over Simms as a senior in my opinion. Bohannon and David Collins are significant upgrades as well. I don't think Clemson has a chance to win the ACC this year, but a top half finish is possible with a trip to the Dance. Of course, it's also quite possible they crap the bed and lose more games than they win.
I agree with a lot of your points. I disagree on the St. Boneventure game. They simply made their open 3s and we didn't in that game. BB put us in a position to win that game. Our players missed their open 3s and theirs made them at the end of the game. Simple as that
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Orange Blooded [4086]
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Re: Expectations vs reality.
Nov 22, 2021, 11:10 AM
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Didn't get off a shot in an end of game situation...
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All-In [43989]
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Honor was coached to get into the lane and try to draw
Nov 22, 2021, 2:39 PM
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a defender to him. If he did, he was supposed to kick it out to an open shooter. If he didn't draw a defender, he was supposed to take the quick two so we could immediately foul on the Bonnies' inbounds pass.
That is a very appropriate play call for that situation, and Honor was a logical choice to have the ball in his hands.
Unfortunately, Honor hesitated, and then was forced to dribble out to the three point line himself and take a bad shot which was partially blocked.
It clearly wasn't drawn up that way. Why would you think it was?!?
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Re: Expectations vs reality.
Nov 22, 2021, 2:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: Expectations vs reality. ] |
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The ACC appears to be a #### show this year. Only 1 team ranked. When was the last time that happened?
So, the expectation of finishing in the top half of the ACC is pretty low. I think this might be the most talented team in a while - and probably a step forward - but the rest of the ACC seems to have taken 2 or 3 steps back. So, let’s benchmark.
Historians, when was the last time the ACC had but one ranked team?
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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There has been a lot of talk about how improved we were
Nov 22, 2021, 9:48 AM
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going to be with our experience, depth and impact transfers. Then, after beating Georgia Southwestern State, Presbyterian, Wofford, Bryant and Temple there was a growing chorus of how good this team might be.
This was the opportunity that this program needed to prove that we are getting better against mediocre teams. We fell flat with a sense of deja vu in back to back games.
We'll have plenty more opportunities this year to prove we are a program on the rise, but we missed two wonderful opportunities this weekend in frustratingly familiar style.
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All-In [43989]
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The only people talking about how improved we are
Nov 22, 2021, 2:41 PM
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are the core group of us who follow and support the team consistently.
The regular downers here were talking about how it was awful to struggle in early season games against mid-major teams.
I've seen very little enthusiasm here from most posters, aside from some positive posts after we blew Temple out.
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Orange Blooded [4086]
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Re: Expectations vs reality.
Nov 22, 2021, 11:08 AM
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In the whatever number of years the coach has been at Clemson, we shouldn't be horrible unless something catastrophic happens.
If you want to say that he's built the team through transfers every year and that's why they can't run an end of game play or break a press, I guess I could buy that even if it looks really bad.
Some people say a coach's job is to win games, but really a coach's main priority should be not getting fired or pissing off the fans so much that they want him fired.
Getting a technical for 6 players on the court looks really bad.
So does not being able to get off a shot on an end of game play.
So does 3 shot clock violations without getting off a shot.
If we are borderline to make the NCAAs, these two losses will most likely keep us out just like the early season wins last year got us in.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Expectations vs reality.
Nov 22, 2021, 2:42 PM
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Except you, JStone, JK, and to a lesser extent Stripefan, clemgal, Nctigs and a bevy of others insisted we actually upgraded at every position that left. JK went so far into the well he claimed we would be a better team without Sims. So here we are. Four wins against sub 100 NET teams. 2 losses to the only teams with a pulse we’ve played. 6 games in we basically have no idea what we have and anyone projecting one way or another is just trying to maintain the same tedious narratives. But Brownell signed an extension that was betting heavily on himself to win big this season. I’d say he has slipped behind the 8 ball.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Expectations vs reality.
Nov 22, 2021, 2:46 PM
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Except you, JStone, JK, and to a lesser extent Stripefan, clemgal, Nctigs and a bevy of others insisted we actually upgraded at every position that left. JK went so far into the well he claimed we would be a better team without Sims. So here we are. Four wins against sub 100 NET teams. 2 losses to the only teams with a pulse we’ve played. 6 games in we basically have no idea what we have and anyone projecting one way or another is just trying to maintain the same tedious narratives. But Brownell signed an extension that was betting heavily on himself to win big this season. I’d say he has slipped behind the 8 ball.
Well let's see
2021 Dawes > 2020 Dawes
Honor > Trapp
Collins >
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Expectations vs reality.
Nov 22, 2021, 2:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: Expectations vs reality. ] |
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Let's see. Below is a list of our players with the highest minutes played last season
Dawes 2020< Dawes 2021
Honor 2020< Honor 2021
Tyson 2020< Tyson 2021
Trapp 2020< Trapp 2021
Simms 2020< hall 2021 (this one you could actually argue)
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Expectations vs reality.
Nov 22, 2021, 3:23 PM
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I was specifically pointing out that we were assured the players that left were all upgraded. And yes, Trapp, who left Clemson, is playing better than he did last season so far.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Expectations vs reality.
Nov 22, 2021, 4:03 PM
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I was specifically pointing out that we were assured the players that left were all upgraded. And yes, Trapp, who left Clemson, is playing better than he did last season so far.
Is he? His first game he had 20 points and then his next 2 he scored 5. Very average stats playing on a team with not as much good talent.
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All-In [32580]
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OK.***
Nov 22, 2021, 2:43 PM
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Re: Expectations vs reality.
Nov 22, 2021, 3:10 PM
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The team is actually not bad at all. Perhaps the best in a while. The First 3 wins were not much more than warm ups, and initially the Temple game seemed to be good - until we see they are not what they once were.
Played a good game against the bonnies, and a fair game against WV.
The losses, while painful, are not a huge thing for me.
People bring up the neutral site thing. Way too much talk about the supposed lack of support.
First, the football team had their final home game - and against the number 10 ranked team. So people had to choose.
More importantly, I think some of you (the blaming twosome) really underestimate the past 12 years affect on the fan base. Winning and interesting brings in fans. Not simply playing. Winning or being competitive over a period of time brings in long term fans.
It is interesting watching the Clemson games and listening to the announcers. It always starts with how BB is respected, good guy and a great x and o coach. Then, right before half and especially at the end of both losses, they are at a loss as to what Clemson is trying to do, who is supposed to take the shot, why a shot could not get off, why there were 6 people on the court, etc. against the bonnies, there should have been a play or 2 with backup plans to get a shot away. I can live with missing of shots, but the team did not appear to know what was planned. Same for the half and end of 2nd half of the WV game. Heck, a friend of mine (WV fan was at game) and txted me after the 6 players and multiple breakdowns - asking me if coaching is always this poor. This is NOT coming from me or the people that two of you criticize, this is coming from another fan base. I did not like the criticism - it is one thing to fight in the family and another outside the family. It is hard to defend.
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