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All-In [49613]
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Ben Tillman's name and his legacy...
Jan 15, 2015, 11:57 AM
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We can discuss race and the mood of South Carolina at the turn of the 20th century at leisure, but before anyone argues taking the name Tillman off a building, they should consider his role as the bedrock for what became the first state college in South Carolina to enroll a black student 60 years later.
You DO realize that, were it not for Tillman, there would be no buildings here to name. The land for what would become Clemson came from Thomas Green Clemson. But the political muscle required to create an agricultural school in the state, wresting it from the Bourbon powers that had set it aside to languish beneath the auspices of the University of South Carolina came from Tillman.
The creation of Clemson, not race, was his primary campaign platform in 1890. It was part of his progressive vision of agriculture in the state.
And when he enrolled in January of 1963, the first building Harvey Gantt entered was Tillman Hall. He didn't object to the name then, and he doesn't now.
Why are you in a more entitled position to do so?
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All-TigerNet [12536]
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None of that makes him unaccountable for his attrocities.
Jan 15, 2015, 12:06 PM
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Nor does it relieve Clemson of the obligation to do the right thing and erase all visible connections to him, particularly those that honor him.
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Head Coach [787]
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And
Jan 15, 2015, 12:11 PM
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I'm glad that Harvey Gantt sued to gain admission to Clemson after he'd been denied 3 times.
He's a credit to the Clemson family.
Go Tigers!!
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All-In [49613]
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When RC Edwards and the Clemson administration
Jan 15, 2015, 12:19 PM
[ in reply to None of that makes him unaccountable for his attrocities. ] |
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...stood against the forces fomenting violence or shutting down the school to keep minorities out, they effectively renunciated the racial aspects of Ben Tillman, while embracing the vision of his college.
There is nothing else to answer for.
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All-In [38422]
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Re: When RC Edwards and the Clemson administration
Jan 15, 2015, 12:28 PM
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I agree with you Rev. So long as you mandate that hatred be included in a conversation , it will be included. If the only aspect of Tillman Hall were to honor a violent , murderous bigot it would be burned to the ground and rebuilt ...and rightfully so. However , as you mentioned the formation of the school on T .Clemson's land was only possible with the help from the man that would eventually have his name placed on a building in recognition of the work he put in.
Tillman Hall is not to celebrate bigotry and hate , it is to welcome men and women of all races into the brotherhood of higher education on the grounds of Clemson University , which by that act of acceptance trumps ignorance and tramples racists' creeds.
I say leave the name , make time and education heal the past that was a time that none of us could understand if it were not for the educational process that goes on today in a building like Tillman Hall .
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110%er [8866]
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Re: When RC Edwards and the Clemson administration
Jan 15, 2015, 1:14 PM
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This is the smartest post I have read on this issue. Good job
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Orange Blooded [3512]
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Re: When RC Edwards and the Clemson administration
Jan 15, 2015, 5:25 PM
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Really, so if Hitler had helped found Clemson University, we would be ok naming a building after him? I understand the numbers are a little off, but Tillman basically did the same thing. Had he had more power, who knows what atrocities he would have committed...
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110%er [5434]
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Re: When RC Edwards and the Clemson administration
Jan 16, 2015, 8:59 PM
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Hilter ??? Is that the best you got
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All-TigerNet [12536]
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: When RC Edwards and the Clemson administration
Jan 16, 2015, 12:28 PM
[ in reply to When RC Edwards and the Clemson administration ] |
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Way to go Rev. What would be next? Renaming the school since Thomas Green Clemson was a slave owner? These student protestors have too much time on their hands
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Commissioner [905]
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Re: When RC Edwards and the Clemson administration
Jan 16, 2015, 6:16 PM
[ in reply to When RC Edwards and the Clemson administration ] |
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Agreed and they were renunciating not only Tilman but also the attitudes and beliefs of many generations. I think we were the first state school to take this step. R.C. Edwards was one fine Clemson man. Only one of us was ever perfect and he was crucified. I think it is time for us all to stop trying to change the past or rewrite it, and high time to embrace it, learn to not repeat its mistakes, get over being offended by what happened generations ago and move forward. Time to move on to Spring football!
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Legend [15492]
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Re: When RC Edwards and the Clemson administration
Jan 16, 2015, 6:43 PM
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It's not about "changing the past" it's about what we, this community honors. Do we honor the innocent dead brought about by Tillman? Or do we honor Tillman who committed the crimes. No, it's not about history, it's about who we are today.
Unfortunately the cat is out of the bag. Our great university now finds itself in a position where they MUST defend Tillman or cut him loose. There are a lot of bad men that did some good. Unfortunately for Tillman, his bad far outweighs the good. And in so far as Political Correctness is being blamed, it's wise to remember that it was politically correct to be against integration. There was a time it was politically correct to deny women the vote or to allow them to own land.
If it's politically correct to ask that the name of a murderous racist like Tillman, no matter what good he might have done, no longer be honored by the University....them I'm proud to be politically correct. Even as a Republican Evangelical.
Go Tigers!
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CU Medallion [55306]
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Re: When RC Edwards and the Clemson administration
Jan 16, 2015, 9:03 PM
[ in reply to When RC Edwards and the Clemson administration ] |
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Some people don't have a clue of what you're saying Rev. With some its black or white with absolutely no middle ground. As bad as Ben was as a racist, he done great things also. But what people refuse to understand is that Ben Tilman lived in a very racist America. I'm not in any way making excuses for him, but most of us are in part what our parents were. Would Ben have been a racist in 2015, with him in today's open minded society and education levels, I don't think he would have been a racist.
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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All-TigerNet [12536]
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By damaging or doing away with honors. They named the
Jan 15, 2015, 2:56 PM
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building for him to honor him posthumously, so remove his name to hold him accountable posthumously.
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110%er [6692]
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So now you want us to go after dead people?
Jan 15, 2015, 3:07 PM
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That makes a whole lot of sense. This is the cutting edge issue we need to be concerned with, stripping dead people of any kind of "Honors" they have even though if not for said dead person I wouldn't be sitting in this class room.
Get over yourself.
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All-TigerNet [12536]
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By George, I think you've got it. When the dead person's
Jan 15, 2015, 3:17 PM
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name is causing damage to the reputation of a school that is still very much alive it is a "cutting edge" issue. My concern is not so much to hurt a man that is already dead, but to protect and upgrade a university that I love and that is still very much alive.
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: By George, I think you've got it. When the dead person's
Jan 16, 2015, 12:34 PM
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so by your reasoning, we change the Strom Thurmond institute, the name of the university (Tom Clemson owned slaves) Burn down the Calhoun Mansion (same reason) and rename anything else the PC police feel is wrong? Oh yes , lets also do away with the sports because some liberal professors don't like it. Don't you realize you can never do enough to please these people??
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CU Medallion [51528]
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No one seems to have a response for you.***
Jan 18, 2015, 10:32 AM
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110%er [5434]
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110%er [8866]
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Re: None of that makes him unaccountable for his attrocities.
Jan 15, 2015, 1:12 PM
[ in reply to None of that makes him unaccountable for his attrocities. ] |
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How in the hell can he be held accountable? He is dead! Move on its history and the only people making it important in today's world are those that can't get past the past. Far more important things than worrying about some man from a 100 yrs ago
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CU Medallion [55306]
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Re: None of that makes him unaccountable for his attrocities.
Jan 16, 2015, 8:39 PM
[ in reply to None of that makes him unaccountable for his attrocities. ] |
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Racism is still live and well b/c of people thinking like you. You can't fix nothing without admitting it was broken. And racism will never be fixed with people wanting to covering it up and try and hide that it ever happen. Ben Tilman wasn't perfect, but he wasn't bad enough to hide the great thing that he did do either. Ben Tilman died in 1918 when racism was at its highest peak in the US with 95% of Americans was racist. Do you suggest burning the records of 95% of Americans that was born before 1963. You can't hide what our races were back then, and we will never heal by wanting to deny racism ever happen. It did, now get over it and allow the healing to complete its self. And stop creating fresh wounds just to make it bleed some more. Stop making people choose sides with BS like this of stripping buildings of names they have had close to a 100 years. If you're white, would you forgive your child if you heard them say the N word. If you're black, would you forgive your child if you heard them say the C word. Ben has been dead almost a hundred years, and he done a lot of good also. Forgive him for living in a majority racist America in his life time.
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110%er [6468]
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All-TigerNet [12536]
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Did harvey Gantt comment on the name of Tillman Hall
Jan 15, 2015, 12:08 PM
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recently? Has he been quoted as commenting on it?
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Orange Blooded [2383]
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Re: Ben Tillman's name and his legacy...
Jan 15, 2015, 12:14 PM
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Perhaps a renaming to Gantt-Tillman Hall?
That would acknowledge where we started and honor the progress that you cite.
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Head Coach [787]
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I like the idea***
Jan 15, 2015, 12:16 PM
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All-In [49613]
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110%er [8866]
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Re: The drive up front of Tillman Hall...
Jan 15, 2015, 1:17 PM
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Exactly so he is recognized. This is completely blown out of proportion and revelance.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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CU Medallion [51528]
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And then when people start bitching about the name
Jan 18, 2015, 10:45 AM
[ in reply to Re: Ben Tillman's name and his legacy... ] |
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"Clemson?"
What will we do then? Give 'em another inch? The answer is no. We're not renaming Tillman.
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Legend [18544]
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Before long they will want to rename Clemson itself.
Jan 15, 2015, 12:24 PM
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This whole thing is just a stupid ploy by a very small group of people trying to find relevance in their short lives.
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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I think it's more about proving they aren't racist.
Jan 15, 2015, 12:37 PM
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But I'm just that kind of azzhole.
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All-In [49613]
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Perhaps: But the notion must be addressed...
Jan 15, 2015, 12:40 PM
[ in reply to Before long they will want to rename Clemson itself. ] |
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...and properly repudiated, or it will simply rise like a festering abscess once again.
Good people may be misled by evil wrapped in a noble cloak. The intention to rename Tillman Hall is, i feel, such an occasion.
Clemson's public repudiation of Tillman's race-mongering should have closed this casket more than 50 years ago. However, defilers of tombs have long been around, ferreting trinkets from whatever crypts they can pilfer.
Ben Tillman has been dead for nearly a century. It's unlikely he's going to change his position. While the evil men do long about lives them, it can be properly laid to rest. The best that can be done is for the school to note that it turned its back on his evil 50 years ago.
The good remains ... for all of South Carolina.
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CU Medallion [55306]
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Re: Before long they will want to rename Clemson itself.
Jan 17, 2015, 4:31 AM
[ in reply to Before long they will want to rename Clemson itself. ] |
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In their short stone throwing bored lives. The ones you will always see walking around with a big spoon in their hand looking to stir the pot that simmers of negativity!!!
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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Since there's no real evidence of racism in government,
Jan 15, 2015, 12:32 PM
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education and entertainment we have to have something to whine about or we'll be out of a job.
Signed
Jesse Jackson
Al Sharpton
tia
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CU Guru [1482]
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Re: Ben Tillman's name and his legacy...
Jan 15, 2015, 12:45 PM
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>
> And when he enrolled in January of 1963, the first
> building Harvey Gantt entered was Tillman Hall. He
> didn't object to the name then, and he doesn't now.
>
Did you call him up and ask him about this, or are you just taking his silence as affirmation of what YOU want to think?
The atmosphere at Clemson with regards to minority students has been a topic of concern for a while now.
It's why a lot of former athletes don't donate to IPTAY, and they've publicly said as much since the 1980s.
It comes up, over and over again, and gets brushed under the rug, over and over again.
Hopefully, with the efforts of some Clemson faculty (like Dr. Thomas) and students, continued presentations addressing the issue of race relations at our school (like "Ebony and Ivy: Race, Slavery, and the Troubled History of America’s Universities" given by Dr. Wilder recently IN Tillman Hall), STEM programs such as WISE, etc. we won't see newspaper articles with quotes from athletes they felt ostracized or minimized and categorized based on race.
Mira aqui. This is nothing new:
http://www.goupstate.com/article/19980429/NEWS/804290306?p=5&tc=pg
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All-In [49613]
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Ahh, but you judge Tillman through today's prism...
Jan 15, 2015, 1:08 PM
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...for better or worse, the people of his time saw Tillman as lively, perhaps vitriolic, but no more racists than his contemporaries.
References to his "pitchfork platform" made no mention of race. Rather they related to the populist platforms abolishing trusts and the gold standard, embracing free trade and the free silver standard. Shall he be vilified for those beliefs as well?
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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No fair, Rev.
Jan 15, 2015, 1:50 PM
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You should have a bigger handicap because of your education. I think one stroke per hole is justified.
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All-TigerNet [12536]
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They didn't know about the blood on his hands? 10
Jan 15, 2015, 3:25 PM
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commandments were around long before then. Thou shalt not kill?
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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OK, we get it, you're not a racist.***
Jan 27, 2015, 9:38 PM
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All-TigerNet [12536]
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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They have.
Jan 27, 2015, 9:37 PM
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They weren't given to bring reproach to others they were given for individuals to live by. One certainly doesn't get to choose one to obey and ignore the other either.
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Legend [17248]
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Use this as a teaching moment ...
Jan 15, 2015, 12:47 PM
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As I posted earlier, take the entrance way and whatever additional space is needed in Tillman Hall to create "Clemson's Diversity and Inclusion Center" to depict the full history of Ben Tillman, race, sex (admittance of women), religion and other D&I milestones at Clemson.
We should acknowledge our past, celebrate our progress and embrace the future as a diverse, multi-cultural university. You can't change history but can influence the future.
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CU Guru [1482]
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Re: Use this as a teaching moment ...
Jan 15, 2015, 1:04 PM
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I agree. And the irony would be hilarious.
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All-In [49613]
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It's not as strange as one might think...
Jan 15, 2015, 1:11 PM
[ in reply to Use this as a teaching moment ... ] |
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...to truly study diversity and inclusion, wouldn't it make sense to reflect on where we've all come from? The university already has Tillman's papers, through I suspect you'll find his more flamboyant racial statements came before he reached the governor's mansion and had to actually govern, rather than stir the populace into a frenzy.
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110%er [5121]
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Agreed. My position is that current students/admin
Jan 15, 2015, 1:18 PM
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should decide on this. I appreciate what Tillman did for Clemson, but there's no real reason to have his name on a building...it doesn't change anything. If they feel that renaming the building will be good for the future of Clemson, I will support them. If not, that's fine too.
I personally don't want anything on campus that makes some students feel uneasy or unwelcome. Tradition is one thing, but the future course of the University should be decided by those that are there now, not us old timers. IMHO.
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CU Guru [1787]
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Re: Agreed. My position is that current students/admin
Jan 15, 2015, 7:45 PM
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"I personally don't want anything on campus that makes some students feel uneasy or unwelcome."
Ain't gonna happen. Nothing will please everyone. Might as well shut down and go home.
There is no right not to be offended enumerated in the Constitution. Lots of other things are, but that one is not in there. The current climate of political correctness is killing people. Emboldening those that want to do us harm. It's time to put the stop to it and get a grip.
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: Agreed. My position is that current students/admin
Jan 16, 2015, 12:40 PM
[ in reply to Agreed. My position is that current students/admin ] |
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the only problem with this view is that for the ones looking to be offended, you can never do enough. Note they said there were several buildings they felt uncomfortable in on campus. How are these people going to exist in the real world??
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CU Medallion [51528]
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Do the people complaining on this issue actually live in the
Jan 18, 2015, 10:36 AM
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real world? 'Cause affirmative action isn't the real world.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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So you want to give up your voice and opinion?
Jan 18, 2015, 10:33 AM
[ in reply to Agreed. My position is that current students/admin ] |
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You can't please everyone. In this situation, without Tillman our university wouldn't exist. Was he extreme? Yes. But Tillman Hall is for remembrance of the governor's dedication to create the state's agricultural institution.
If someone is offended by him, they don't have to attend.
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CU Guru [1893]
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I am totally opposed to renaming Tillman Hall
Jan 15, 2015, 3:19 PM
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for two reasons. One, if not for ol' Ben, there would be no Clemson University. Two, it is totally unfair to judge a 19th century person by 21st century standards. Just about every white person was prejudiced in the 1890's SC and probably up through the 1960's.
Many people are trying to rewrite history. You can't let them do it.
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Varsity [226]
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Re: I am totally opposed to renaming Tillman Hall
Jan 15, 2015, 4:41 PM
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It is not about rewriting history. It is about acknowledging that the person our most iconic building is named after was a terrorist and murderer and we as more enlightened people should not celebrate his life or remember him in any way. Let him slide back into history where he belongs. Please don't tell me you agree with the things he did. Buildings get renamed all the time. Even this building was renamed from Old Hall or Old Main to Tillman. Why shouldn't we rename it?
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: I am totally opposed to renaming Tillman Hall
Jan 16, 2015, 12:43 PM
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because it is a historical building it takes 2/3 of state legislature to change it. Besides, John C. Calhoun and Tom Clemson were slaveholders. By your logic we should burn down the Calhoun Mansion and rename the school.
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CU Medallion [60205]
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problem is, we're NOT more enlightened today
Jan 16, 2015, 6:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: I am totally opposed to renaming Tillman Hall ] |
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Today's society represents and promotes as much hate and violence as there ever has been. Cities burn today when people just perceive something they don't agree with. The mob mentality is just as strong as ever.
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All-In [40875]
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Justice!***
Jan 17, 2015, 8:41 PM
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CU Medallion [51528]
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110%er [7010]
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Those that FORGET the Past
Jan 16, 2015, 11:10 AM
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are the most likely to repeat it.
Use it as a reminder WHAT WE DO NOT WANT TO DO IN THE FUTURE.
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Starter [392]
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Re: Those that FORGET the Past
Jan 16, 2015, 6:57 PM
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Agreed, but history cannot be undone, and I think that those requesting specific name changes are wanting to do just that. Like his actions or not, without Tillman, the privilege of becoming a Clemson University alum would not be possible for ANYONE. Without Harvey Gantt, and the dignity of his and Clemson University's actions, the same privilege would not be possible for those wanting these changes. Graduating from Clemson University is a privilege, not a right, and undoing history will not change that.
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Orange Blooded [3507]
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Re: Ben Tillman's name and his legacy...
Jan 16, 2015, 9:05 PM
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I'm sure every other university in the southeast will follow suit and we'll have a mass name change for all buildings on campuses region wide that are the namesakes of racist white men 135 years ago(Sarcasm). I'd be completely shocked if NO OTHER building on any other campus in the southeast is named after someone who was a racist in the 1800s. Heck, buildings on campus in the rest of the country too, not just the South(Hmm good research topic). It's not who we are today, and history cannot be undone. Tillman Hall is not named in honor of a man's sins, it's named in honor of the contribution one man made to a university. But if those who are offended say it needs to be changed, then by golly we better do it.....because those who oppose a change will all be painted as "pro Tillman Nazis" of sorts.
If it offends that many, and it's good for our university, change it.....but it will always be referred to as Tillman Hall by me.
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CU Medallion [55306]
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Re: Ben Tillman's name and his legacy...
Jan 17, 2015, 4:51 AM
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Just maybe they should start with the Strom Thurman Federal US courthouse building. Yes, start with the mans name that did more for all people in the state of SC, and he was the longest standing senator that served for 48 years as a United States Senator from South Carolina. Senator Thurman done a lot of good for white and black people, but he was considered a racist. Nobody in the human race is perfect, and you can find bad in all if you dig long enough for it.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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I don't know about you but I can't stand looking at nickels,
Jan 18, 2015, 10:39 AM
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pennies and quarters. Seeing those slave owners is just despicable.
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Scout Team [154]
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Re: Ben Tillman's name and his legacy...
Jan 17, 2015, 4:50 AM
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Rev is a racist. No surprise after reading his other rants.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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Tell em, coot.***
Jan 18, 2015, 10:40 AM
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All-TigerNet [11963]
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Re: Ben Tillman's name and his legacy...
Jan 17, 2015, 2:57 PM
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And when he enrolled in January of 1963, the first building Harvey Gantt entered was Tillman Hall. He didn't object to the name then, and he doesn't now.
this statement is a bit ridiculous, don't you think? I mean, could he really have objected (publicly) to the name at that time? And at this point, he hasn't made statement for or against a name change, has he? So do we know where he stands? More importantly, if Mr. Gantt came out in favor of the name change, would it make a difference?
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CU Medallion [51528]
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Gantt is different than some minorities that attend Clemson
Jan 18, 2015, 10:44 AM
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today.
I met many people at Clemson who were there (not like Gantt, to just get an education [he didn't protest, he didn't go on rants, he didn't stand up in class and call a professor "racist"]) because they felt like they were entitled. They had a victims mindset and thought that every one was against them. It was apparent in the opinion section every week in The Tiger. Today, that's how I feel many of the individuals that are protesting Tillman Hall are. They're looking for a statement and how to make it. Like a kid looking for attention. Be grateful for your opportunity at Clemson.
This is not your statement.
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