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Replies: 55
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Honest question for Christians on the board
Dec 10, 2017, 8:49 AM
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particularly those who are ardent patriots.....
It seems that the belief among conservatives is that you should pledge allegiance to the good old USA no matter what, yet our government has made same sex marriage legal and there’s no telling what it will stand for in the future.
How do reconcile your beliefs as a Christian and your allegiance to the government and at what point do you break your oath to it?
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All-TigerNet [10155]
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Re: Honest question for Christians on the board
Dec 10, 2017, 9:06 AM
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Despite some frustrations, the good outweighs the bad and with that there is hope.
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Walk-On [142]
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Re: Honest question for Christians on the board
Dec 10, 2017, 9:38 AM
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The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally - not a 20 percent traitor.
Ronald Reagan
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All-TigerNet [10155]
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jhop, as long as folks are allowed to say the pledge
Dec 10, 2017, 9:40 AM
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then there is hope. When that right has been taken away or the words altered then that is the turning point and failure and decline of our country. Still even in concentration camps the jews that survived are the ones the still had hope and something to look forward to when hitler when the war was over and they were released from hell.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: jhop, as long as folks are allowed to say the pledge
Dec 10, 2017, 9:53 AM
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I see what you mean but the Bible is clear that it won’t get better. Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world, which means the kingdom we serve is not of this world. Sometimes I think our patriotism gets in the way of our true mission and prevents us from recognizing the “nation” we are really a part of.....
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: jhop, as long as folks are allowed to say the pledge
Dec 10, 2017, 9:58 AM
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Easy, become a Jehovah's Witness.
I think they refrain from the Pledge.
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All-In [42122]
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: "Words altered." Like adding "Under God" in 1954?***
Dec 10, 2017, 1:21 PM
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Which begs the question what “God” are we under? It’s certainly not the God I read about in my Bible.
That was my point. The majority of the “stand for the flag, kneel at the cross” crowd is under the impression that this is/was a godly nation when it never really has been. Before same sex marriage and abortion was legal it was segregation laws and before that slavery.
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All-In [42122]
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Re: "Words altered." Like adding "Under God" in 1954?***
Dec 10, 2017, 8:31 PM
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I think the "Under God" has just been lip service that a lot of people don't give much though to. It was added as an F you to the Soviets, but now it's kind of tossed around. Is it a good representation of the Christian God? I don't think it is anymore.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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It'll be removed eventually***
Dec 12, 2017, 11:41 AM
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Legend [17909]
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Well, you can make yourself an enemy to the Nation
Dec 10, 2017, 9:58 AM
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if you like...and put up one heck of a fight, but I don't think that will work out to well for you.
People have always been subject to the rulers appointed over them - that does not mean you must submit to their will when it contradicts what you know to be against God's. When a nation allows an action it does not necessarily mean you support that action. But, if the government insists you perform that act, act against God, then you just decline without the physical rebellion.
Take Daniel, for example, who prayed to God despite the ruling authority saying he could not. And without shame or concern, he prayed. And then he accepted the consequence of his actions, without physical rebellion, and God honored him for it.
But, the primary point to make is this - pray that God will return the hearts of the people to Him so that the issues will be resolved through the changed heart submitting to God.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Well, you can make yourself an enemy to the Nation
Dec 10, 2017, 12:55 PM
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I'm not an enemy of the nation, but when I hear Christians putting their allegiance to the country over their allegiance to Christ it's hypocritical and alarming. For some reason conservative Christians nowadays seem to think patriotism is a fruit of the spirit. I can be a good a citizen of the nation I live in without drawing a line between myself and those who have differing political beliefs. It doesn't sound like you're someone who goes that far but if you are involved in a church in the south you see plenty of this. Seems to me like all Christians should take up the fight to remove the political and cultural barriers that separate us and hinder the gospel from being spread.
The point of bringing up same sex marriage was to show the hypocrisy in the way people demonize those who are taking a stand to point out flaws in society by "disrespecting" our flag and not realizing that you are pledging your undying loyalty to a nation that goes against your values....And remember Jesus said not to make oaths at all which is why I asked at what point will you break your allegiance that you have swore to the country? There have already been cases of the government forcing pastors to turn in their sermons for approval. This will get worse, not better no matter what Trump says.
Matthew 5:33-37
“Again, you have heard that it was said to our ancestors, You must not break your oath, but you must keep your oaths to the Lord. 34 But I tell you, don’t take an oath at all: either by heaven, because it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, because it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King. 36 Do not swear by your head, because you cannot make a single hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘yes’ mean ‘yes,’ and your ‘no’ mean ‘no.’ Anything more than this is from the evil one.
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All-In [42122]
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JHop
Dec 10, 2017, 1:19 PM
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Of course, you know where I stand religiously and it doesn't mesh with your views, but I agree with what you're preaching here. Somewhere along the way Christian loyalty and blind loyalty to our nation's actions blended together, and that doesn't make sense when you examine the core of Christianity.
I wanted to ask you about this line: "There have already been cases of the government forcing pastors to turn in their sermons for approval."
Do you have examples? I'd like to know more about this. If this is happening, it's disturbing.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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CU Medallion [60023]
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Re: JHop
Dec 10, 2017, 1:38 PM
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So we want to listen in and monitor Imams, but we can’t wrap our minds around Pastor’s spewing hate speech need to be held accountable.
I am a Christian by the way. Just wanting you to think deeper about your thoughts.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: JHop
Dec 11, 2017, 9:06 AM
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“Spewing hate speech”
Do you have a transcript of any of these pastors sermons to show that that’s what they were doing?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: JHop
Dec 11, 2017, 9:11 AM
[ in reply to Re: JHop ] |
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I don’t think Pastor’s should get political in the pulpit but to say they were spewing hate speech is a stretch.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: JHop
Dec 10, 2017, 5:24 PM
[ in reply to Re: JHop ] |
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There is just as much danger from the far left as there is from the far right.
What's important is to not confuse the honest left and the honest right from the "far" side of either.
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CU Guru [1097]
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Re: Well, you can make yourself an enemy to the Nation
Dec 10, 2017, 3:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: Well, you can make yourself an enemy to the Nation ] |
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Jhop...."Seems to me like all Christians should take up the fight to remove the political and cultural barriers that separate us and hinder the gospel from being spread."
Christians that I know try this everyday......just falling on deaf ears. Democrats and the Media don't want the message of "hope" out.
Heck, you cant even bake a cake without offending someone nowadays. Who knows....maybe this country will get so bad that it will try to prosecute/fine/punish a baker for denying to give a service to someone against their religious beliefs.
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All-In [48078]
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You're saying there aren't a lot of bigoted...
Dec 10, 2017, 4:55 PM
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and racist Christians out there? Roy Moore is right there.
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CU Guru [1097]
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Re: You're saying there aren't a lot of bigoted...
Dec 10, 2017, 5:22 PM
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Yeup...he's a douch. If I lived in Alabama....I wouldn't vote this go round.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Well, you can make yourself an enemy to the Nation
Dec 10, 2017, 5:31 PM
[ in reply to Re: Well, you can make yourself an enemy to the Nation ] |
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> Jhop...."Seems to me like all Christians should take
> up the fight to remove the political and cultural
> barriers that separate us and hinder the gospel from
> being spread."
>
> Christians that I know try this everyday......just
> falling on deaf ears. Democrats and the Media don't
> want the message of "hope" out.
> Heck, you cant even bake a cake without offending
> someone nowadays. Who knows....maybe this country
> will get so bad that it will try to
> prosecute/fine/punish a baker for denying to give a
> service to someone against their religious beliefs.
What you are proposing is the death of Christianity. The idea that one political party or another might have some special access or favor by God flies completely in the face of Jesus teachings.
Christ is far above Republicans or Democrats, it's not even close. It is the perversion of His teachings that lead people to quantify God based on party affiliations.
God is far larger than partisan politics.
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CU Guru [1097]
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Re: Well, you can make yourself an enemy to the Nation
Dec 10, 2017, 5:46 PM
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Totally agree!!! He is above everything. Only 1 way to Jesus. That is what I believe. I also believe one political party is more "Christian like". Therefor...I vote based on which person leans more towards the Christian faith. That being said.....I don't look up to or worship any man...no matter what party the like...nor do I trust anyone on Earth. Christians cant omit the word of God...just because it hurts someone's feelings.
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All-In [42122]
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Decling to say the Pledge doesn't make you an enemy...
Dec 10, 2017, 1:15 PM
[ in reply to Well, you can make yourself an enemy to the Nation ] |
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Of our nation. The pledge concept is, overall, a bit silly and our founding fathers put far more stock in religious liberty. They would have scoffed at the idea of the pledge. They would have celebrated the Jehovah's Witnesses win in West Virginia v. Barnette.
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Oculus Spirit [97697]
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I'm confused. Is your question for Christians, patriots, or
Dec 10, 2017, 11:47 AM
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conservatives? I'll give you an answer for all three though (probably, depending on your flavor of Christianity).
We don't care.
Furthermore, if our government is working as constructed, that would be the answer for everyone. I don't care if you stick your schlong in a buttwhole. I don't care if you won't bake me a cake because I stick my schlong in a buttwhole. I don't care if you're a Christian or an atheist, or a left-handed Armenian gypsy. I don't care who's groping who. I will believe what I believe and you believe whatever you want to believe.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: I'm confused. Is your question for Christians, patriots, or
Dec 10, 2017, 5:19 PM
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I'm afraid you underestimate the danger of left-handed Armenian gypsies my friend.
Scary business them fellas.
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Orange Blooded [3516]
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Re: Honest question for Christians on the board
Dec 10, 2017, 12:03 PM
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This is very timely as I was speaking with my daughter about this exact thing last week. I think things like gay marriage are actually a sign of what is right about the US. In fact, its a great thing that a majority Christian nation is able to do what is right (at least in this instance) for ALL of its citizens. Those who can't separate belief from governance are the biggest threat to our democracy.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Honest question for Christians on the board
Dec 10, 2017, 12:59 PM
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I agree with this. If we are the land of the free people should be free to marry whoever they want. That's where I think conservative Christians are getting off base. A law is not going to turn anyone to Christ.
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Legend [17909]
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If we are the land of the free
Dec 10, 2017, 2:01 PM
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then there will always be division on faith/belief - right/wrong. But to stand for the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life means to stand against God.
Even Israel and Judah learned these lessons - when God allow their enemies to become stronger than they were, and He denied His sovereign protection of them against their enemies...because they chose the world over God.
Standing in silence against immoral issues to the point of support only leads to destruction.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: If we are the land of the free
Dec 10, 2017, 2:08 PM
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So why then do you pledge allegiance to a country that you believe is headed for destruction?
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Legend [17909]
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One nation, under God...
Dec 10, 2017, 2:36 PM
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I will always believe that this nation can be great under God's providential care, and will align myself with it until such time as God decides this nation will no longer live as a nation any longer.
Even in Israel and Judah there were those who still loved their nation and served God.
Do not confuse your will for God's.
The better question: Why continue to live in a world that God will destroy?
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: One nation, under God...
Dec 10, 2017, 4:04 PM
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The difference is those nations were made up of God's chosen people. That all changed when Jesus came and died for the sins of Jews and Gentiles alike. This is now the age of Grace, right? You either believe in Jesus or you don't....
What we as Christians should be concerned about is the state of the Church, which is now God's chosen nation, not the direction the American government is heading. I'm afraid the Church today as we think of it is starting to resemble first century Judaism with our legalism and condescending treatment of people who don't hold to our traditions....one being patriotism.
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Legend [17909]
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The Church is spiritual
Dec 10, 2017, 4:59 PM
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and the nations are physical. And, the whole world lives in this age of Grace through/in Jesus - not just believers. Belief in Jesus is not rewarded with Grace - Grace is given to all while the Holy Spirit is allowed to continue working through the True Believer leading to the salvation through faith in the once unbelieving soul. Once the Holy Spirit is removed - and the true believers with Him (rapture of the church) then grace will be removed and the wrath of God will ensure.
The TRUE church of God is a spiritual church and unites ALL who are saved by their faith in Jesus. These buildings that we meet in to celebrate salvation in Jesus is not the church. Nor is the sum of the body in each of those buildings.
Matthew 13 is a parable on the church, in fact, and it shows us that mustard seed grows to an abnormal size - and is eventually filled with birds that are biblically related to demons. This parable is to teach us that the church (to which you speak) will one day grow to a point that it is filled with the "world" and not just true believers. So yes, it will not reflect Jesus - not all that is. But many will as true believers continue to live their lives as God leads them.
BTW, Israel is still God's chosen people. We (Gentiles) are grafted into God through Jesus. The Tribulation is called the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" for a reason....it reflects that God's people have rejected Him - like Jacob who wisely stated that God was the God of his fathers (not his god) before he wrestled with Him in the night. Jacob came through that night with a new name - Israel. Today, the "old man" lives (Jacob) but the Great Tribulation will bring His chosen people back to Him. The church will already be gone
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Legend [15492]
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Re: One nation, under God...
Dec 10, 2017, 5:28 PM
[ in reply to One nation, under God... ] |
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> I will always believe that this nation can be great
> under God's providential care, and will align myself
> with it until such time as God decides this nation
> will no longer live as a nation any longer.
>
But therein lies the problem. There is nothing in scripture that would suggest that this country is "under God's providential care". That is a creation of so called "christian" politicians.
The idea that God has some special appreciation of the United States is baseless in history and scripture.
Further, I believe that the idea is the foundation of evangelical desires to turn America into a theocracy.
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Legend [17909]
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Re: One nation, under God...
Dec 10, 2017, 9:32 PM
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I really wish we could talk about this face to face....because there is just tooooo much to write.
Hope you have a good week.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Honest question for Christians on the board
Dec 10, 2017, 12:57 PM
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I don't accept the way the question is asked. I'm a Christian and not a conservative. I'm fairly moderate in my beliefs, but in today's political environment, that makes me a flaming liberal.
Having read the Bible, I don't know the same Jesus that people like Roy Moore know. I know a Jesus who spoke hundreds of times about helping your fellow man. And not just helping occasionally to make myself feel good, but helping as much as I can. And I know a Jesus who never mentioned gay marriage, but did mention that when someone strikes you, you don't grab a gun and shoot him.
I don't live in this alternate reality where evil is all around me and destroying what was once great. It was never without fault. America is a place that Jesus would accept today much more than he would have in 1817, because we are far more free than we were then. We also do less to intentionally harm our fellow man.
I find abortion morally troubling. However, I realize that in countries where it is illegal, there tend to be a lot of abortions. So I support societal initiatives to lower the abortion rate. We know that abortion rates are lower when women know they'll have WIC and Medicaid. We know that access to birth control and fact-based sex ed lower abortions. I support those things and to see that they're brought to fruition I generally must vote for a Democrat.
To answer your question, though, I don't have to reconcile my beliefs with allegiance to the government. God said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and so I will without question, even if I may complain my taxes are too high from time to time. America has come a long way and I'm proud of that even though we have a long way to go. Our country is responsible, through strong leadership, for overseeing one of the most peaceful periods in the history of mankind. So I feel good when I hear the anthem or the pledge. But I don't worship them. I'll never tell someone they're less than me because they kneel. God wouldn't be too happy with me holding a song or a poem in such high regard. That doesn't mean I can't feel good when I hear them.
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CU Medallion [60023]
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Re: Honest question for Christians on the board
Dec 10, 2017, 1:20 PM
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The problems Christians face is far greater than a pledge of allegiance.
Start searching the web and look at stories about TOR and the dark web. It will make you question everything you know and believe. There is some real evil out there bro.
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All-In [48078]
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Why wou;d someone who truly believes in Jesus, the Bible...
Dec 10, 2017, 1:56 PM
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as the word of God, and their religion in general, even worry what man's laws are?
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CU Guru [1097]
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Re: Why wou;d someone who truly believes in Jesus, the Bible...
Dec 10, 2017, 3:02 PM
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Easy....being called a bigot or hater because i'm not in lock step with gay Marriage is 1 example. The Democrats and media have done a great job telling everyone that if you are a white male that loves Jesus has to be guilty of hate crimes. It's woven in the fabric of their being right? That is why the left as a whole want religious....crazy people...to shut up!
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All-In [48078]
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Why do you worry what liberals think?
Dec 10, 2017, 3:06 PM
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Why don't you worry what your God wants? After all, this time on Earth is supposedly just a blip in time. Won't you be spending the rest of eternity in heaven?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Why do you worry what liberals think?
Dec 10, 2017, 3:27 PM
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Sadly the attitude and actions of Christians in this country suggest that they don’t believe that at all.
I listen to old men pray at my church all the time for our nation to turn back to God even though the New Testament clearly says that it’s going to get worse, not better. Furthermore, at what point was America a godly nation? It certainly wasn’t godly when an entire race was confined to slavery or when women were looked at as second class citizens.....
We just talked about this in church this morning- the early Christian prayed for strength in the face of persecution. American Christians pray for deliverance from persecution. There is a huge disconnect between the early church and American Christianity.
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CU Guru [1097]
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Re: Why do you worry what liberals think?
Dec 10, 2017, 3:46 PM
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So...you don't have hope that this nation can go back to a Godly nation for the most part? Isn't hope and grace the foundation of Jesus Christ? Why sit idle and just let the country slide further away? Why not vote and get the message out?
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All-In [48078]
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We're we godly when we had slaves or abusing minorities?
Dec 10, 2017, 3:59 PM
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When were we godly?
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CU Guru [1097]
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Re: We're we godly when we had slaves or abusing minorities?*****
Dec 10, 2017, 4:05 PM
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Yeup....if Christians were doing that....they were not Christians in my eyes. The Lords people were slaves too though! Remember the Egypt thing? Or because they were not black that it doesn't matter?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Why do you worry what liberals think?
Dec 10, 2017, 4:16 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why do you worry what liberals think? ] |
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We do need to go back in time, but it's much further back than Trump wants to take us. We need to get back to the days of the early church as described in the New Testament where they were not concerned with what was going on with the earthly kingdoms of the day.
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Orange Blooded [3516]
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CU Guru [1097]
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Why wou;d someone who truly believes in Jesus, the Bible...
Dec 10, 2017, 4:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why wou;d someone who truly believes in Jesus, the Bible... ] |
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I'm not Christian but i am pretty liberal and i have to agree here. Even i get sick of hearing bigot or racist, etc. Not everyone with different opinions is racist or a bigot or homophobic or whatever.
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Legend [18018]
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It's not that they are all bigots or racists...
Dec 10, 2017, 4:13 PM
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it's just that many of their views are bigoted or racist.
hth 
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: It's not that they are all bigots or racists...
Dec 10, 2017, 4:30 PM
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Agreed but i believe it's deeper than that.
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All-In [48078]
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Kind of like when crazy Muslims do nutty stuff...
Dec 10, 2017, 4:29 PM
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True.
Many good Muslims as well, tho.
I've shared the story of my wifes best friend and her husband on here in the past. Awesome people. I don't agree with their book or their God, tho.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Kind of like when crazy Muslims do nutty stuff...
Dec 10, 2017, 4:33 PM
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Just to add, they are from Florida.
If they had been from Iran, i doubt i would have let them in my home. ??
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All-In [48078]
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I know that most Muslims are probably great.
Dec 10, 2017, 4:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: Kind of like when crazy Muslims do nutty stuff... ] |
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That said, I am just saying that people do nutty stuff in the name of religion and I would prefer to be called a bigot than to accept the nuttiness.
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CU Guru [1097]
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Re: I know that most Muslims are probably great.
Dec 10, 2017, 4:58 PM
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I prefer not to be called anything but my name. But hey...i'm an adult...I can take it. Others...not so much. Feeling are getting sooo hurt that laws are made to correct it.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I know that most Muslims are probably great.
Dec 10, 2017, 6:10 PM
[ in reply to I know that most Muslims are probably great. ] |
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I think we should be above calling someone a bigot just because they think differently than us.
I've (and we probably all have) sat down and talked to people who we had no doubt was a bigot and we've talked to people who had legitimate concerns. And those are the people who i refer to above. I can't call them bigots and i hate when i see/hear someone call them bigots.
I think you and i have talked about that in the past and agreed thats part of the reason people voted for Trump.
Most people are tired of being called homophobes, bigots, deplorables, etc. The over whelming majority want to be able to feed their family and believe their government is doing what it takes to keep them safe.
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