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Honest question, and I do not pretend to know the answer.
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Replies: 22  

Honest question, and I do not pretend to know the answer.

emoji_events [7]
Jan 2, 2022, 6:51 PM

But, if anyone had any actual insight, I would like to hear it.

DJ was not at any point considered a "dual threat" QB coming into college, at least not that I recall. He was always rated as a top "Pro Style" pocket passer. So, the question is:

"Did we really think we could cultivate those skills in a slow, bulky, Ben Worthlessburger type QB?"

If we did, someone should be held to account for that snafu, and it ain't DJ.

Or, did we plan to change our entire offense, and go to a pro style attack, when we do not have the offensive line "Big Uglies" to sustain such an attack?

If we did, then someone should be held to account for that snafu, and it ain't DJ.

Now, we SHOULD be able to hold DJ to account for being a MUCH poorer chunker of said football that we were led to believe off his high school and last years two game starts worth of tape. And, I do believe that if the coaching staff thought they had any workable option at QB OTHER than him, they would have held him to accounts.

This tells you that, through a combination of injury and whatever, Taisun was never considered a viable alternative. And, neither were others further down the depth chart. And for that, the COACHING staff is accountable, whiffed on recruiting that position, or coaching that position, or both.

Winning 10 games with all that drama surrounding the QB position was a great accomplishment. But, that is one accomplishment that no one wants to see repeated next year in that particular fashion. We all seem to think, and hope, that we have the solution in Cade Klubnick. But, even if he turns out to be GREAT, that still puts us one bad hit away from a massive struggle at QB again. We need more help than just Cade, but trying to recruit a viable "backup" QB is near impossible in this "Portal" age. Like the Dr. Pepper commercial says, all these Portal guys think "Rico's time is NOW!"

It is a New Years Connundrum, is what it is. Luckily, the season is over now, and with all this downtime now, we on Tigernet will four shore have come up with a veritable plethora of solutions to this problem by spring practice next year.

:)

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Re: Honest question, and I do not pretend to know the answer.


Jan 2, 2022, 7:10 PM

Good question(s). To be a fly on the wall in the football offices this year.

I do think DJ looked much more mobile coming out of HS than he does now, unless his highlight tapes were sped up just a hair? I’m sure it is hard to turn down the #1 recruit at any position. I’m guessing they thought he was going to be a turbo version of Boyd, but right now DJ is not as good of a runner. We actually should now (well next year) have the horses to run a pro-style offense, given the recent Oline talent and the RB’s we have. No fullback and TE/H-backs may be a question with Lay transferring.

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Re: Honest question, and I do not pretend to know the answer.


Jan 2, 2022, 7:13 PM

To be clear I’m not suggesting they should or would do that. Just an observation. We did have more success late in a 2 back set and both those RB’s are passing game threats.

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Re: Honest question, and I do not pretend to know the answer.

[2]
Jan 2, 2022, 7:15 PM

The strength of a pro style QB is accuracy, reads, check downs, etc. DJ did not have that this year. I knw, there were drops, but that was not the real problem. Forced throws. throws in the dirt, no touch of finesse, staring down the receiver, etc. were the problems.

And as far as the 10 wins, the D won those games. I believe I saw that no one scoered over 27 points on us and I believe we finished with one of the top 5 scoring defenses. With that kind of D, with a decent QB we would have gone 12 - 0 during the regular season.

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The strength of a "seasoned" pro-style QB****


Jan 2, 2022, 7:33 PM



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Re: Honest question, and I do not pretend to know the answer.


Jan 2, 2022, 8:34 PM

Only Jawja was better at scoring defense.

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Re: Honest question, and I do not pretend to know the answer.


Jan 2, 2022, 7:24 PM

watson was a duel threat quarterback.Here is an article from 2014.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/9/30/6869193/deshaun-watson-clemson-tigers-quarterback


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Re: Not an 'insight' response, but perhaps this is logical

[4]
Jan 2, 2022, 7:56 PM

You're paying attention and obviously smart 76er®. Not saying that I've got an "insightful" response (as I don't have any inside sources), but here goes:

DJ was a top recruit because EVERYONE could see his magnificent arm. The QB intangibles did not have to show up when DJ was playing HS, because the speed & complexity of HS FB are a long ways from that of big time college FB.

DJ wasn't expected to be fast, but as with old U.Tenn QB Peyton Manning, a QB that knows when and where to run doesn't have to be Lamar Jackson to be effective as a situational runner.

It was also not known from DJU's HS film that he had a fragile psyche.

When the early-season Clemson team had the terrible performance from the WR unit (and J.Ross was also disappointing ... just like ALL of our other WRs), DJ's confidence collapsed. His passing accuracy became very inconsistent. Sometimes he'd make stupendously good throws (reference NC State game in 2nd Qtr when he made two consecutive brilliant intermediate range passes, with 2nd pass being the TD to J.Ross). Kind of like a golfer in a slump that has the 'yips' and can't make a putt.

When the O-Line had its weekly flux due to injuries / Covid / 'learning the plays' problems, the offense philosophy of drop back / pro-style QB could not be supported by the O-Line's capabilities.

So the offensive philosophy had to change to RPO, to which DJU was not accustomed from his HS days. So DJU had to learn the ABCs of the RPO offense on the fly. DJU got better (which was due to good coaching and to DJ's own hard work), but he sure wasn't any Deshaun Watson.

Taisun, unfortunately, was a true 'miss' as a QB recruit. Taisun had no accuracy; I'm betting that if W.Taylor had not busted his ACL in game 5, that W.Taylor would have played a bunch of QB this year. But that's unanswerable speculation. But T.Phommachan had proved that he was not a viable option at QB.

DJU's late season performance (including FL State / Louisville / W.Forest / S.Carolina / IA State) ... as far as the intangibles / decision making process ... was much better than his early to mid season performance. This coincided with the WRs playing better and with the O-Line coming together somewhat.

Unfortunately, DJU's late season 'throwing' performance was poor except for short passes. A messed up index finger will do that to any QB. The offense's game plan was adjusted for DJU to make only short passes, and thanks to the eventual continuity and good play of the O-Line (and the return to health of the RB corp) gave us a completely different 'late season' look than what the coaches had anticipated at the start of 2020 season.

Of course, our D was magnificent all year, and kicker BT Potter was our only truly all-year consistent weapon on offense.

As you stated, we really need at least 2 functional QBs for the 2022 season. I am hoping like mad that, with the legitimate likelihood that our O-Line will be very very good, and that the 'older' WRs will improve some and the incoming WRs will be good right out of the gate, that DJU's progress in late 2021 will show up big time in 2022. We don't need for DJU to transfer out.

OK, how's that for 2022's early candidate for longest response post of the year!

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Re: Not an 'insight' response, but perhaps this is logical


Jan 2, 2022, 8:04 PM

Rarely have I read a post that long but kudos for one well worth reading. Excellent analysis!

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Re: Not an 'insight' response, but perhaps this is logical


Jan 2, 2022, 8:19 PM

Great, well thought out response!

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Re: Not an 'insight' response, but perhaps this is logical


Jan 2, 2022, 8:38 PM

Dang! You sure do write perdy!

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Re: Not an 'insight' response, but perhaps this is logical


Jan 2, 2022, 8:39 PM

Not bad. But not entirely true. DJ played the same way last year as this year. He was inaccurate but ETN and Amari bailed him out. But you figured it wasn't bad for a true freshman so it got overlooked.

What worked the last 4 games is what drorange 2017 spelled out at the wake game. We went with a lot more 21 and 22 personnel. Our running game exploded and opposing D had to respond. Opened up some easy interme

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Point by Point

[2]
Jan 2, 2022, 8:30 PM

First of all, Ben Roethlisberger was a very mobile QB early in his career. He wasn't a runner like DW4, but he was great at extending plays which was a big part of his effectiveness and why he's going to the Hall of Fame. The immobile "Worthlessburger" you speak of is what happens when a QB plays two years too long in the NFL. He should have retired after the 2019 season. It was OBVIOUS he was running on fumes in 2020. The Steelers then committed a stupid act of self-immolation by bringing him back yet again in 2021.

DJ looked like "Worthlessburger" this year for two main reasons: (1) His accuracy was terrible and (2) he lacked mobility because he gained at least 20 lbs (probably more like 30). If a QB is inaccurate AND immobile, failure is certain. DJ's flaws can't be blamed on the receivers.

If it was always miscommunication with the same receiver or two, it's the receivers fault. However, DJ had issues with nearly all of them. That proves HE was the main problem, not the receivers.

Our offense was based on DJ being able to hit open targets. When he couldn't do that, it crashed and burned.

Regarding Taisun, you are correct he was never a viable option. I think most of us knew that even though we rooted for him to succeed. And, yes, the coaching staff "whiffed" on both DJ and Taisun.

Our entire season next year depends on Cade being able to win the starting job early on. If he doesn't, next year will be another gut check for us fans. If he does, just watch how much "smarter" our receivers suddenly become because their QB can process information on the fly and consistently deliver the ball where it needs to be.

An early word on spring practice: Dabo definitely won't call him out in a negative way, but watch for one thing in particular: If Dabo doesn't profusely throw compliments DJ's way during spring practice, you can rest assured he is failing again. A big flag for me during last spring was despite flowing words for so many guys, Dabo didn't praise DJ.

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Re: Point by Point


Jan 2, 2022, 9:14 PM

Good points. Didn't realize he'd gained that much weight. We did miss on TP. Not sure you can say that about DJ yet.

Not sure you can deduct anything from what Dabo says about a player. He praised our oline. Maybe without the preseason injuries, it would be a strength as Dabo said... Didn't he say maybe our best ever. I know a ton of praise heaped on lay and Galloway.

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Re: Point by Point


Jan 2, 2022, 9:17 PM

That's a smart post MoCity; you've obviously paid attention to both the play of DJU and of the 'read between the lines' about what Dabo says and what he doesn't say with regard to the performance of his players.

I especially appreciate your recollections about DJU's Spring 2021 performance, when Dabo would not speak about DJU's performance (i.e., as a 'gentleman's way of expressing displeasure).

But maybe you've got other observational insights about DJU's accuracy (or inaccuracy). Do you view DJU as having inconsistent footwork? From my limited skills in accessing 'footwork' of a QB, it looked to me as if DJU was all over the place in this respect. Sometimes the bad footwork was because he was under pressure and didn't have the confidence to step up in the pocket and use the right form for throwing. Sometimes his bad footwork was because he was trying to be mobile, and his HS experience / early Clemson experience did not coincide with his (at that stage of his development) ability to properly get his feet underneath him for accurate throws.

Yet sometimes (at least before he busted up his index finger), DJU showed incredible accuracy on long throws. To me, his inconsistency (sometimes great throws, sometimes awful throws) was mostly due to not setting his base correctly.

Of course, with some of his short throws, he clearly had (as the golfers say) the 'yips.'

Where I'll disagree is where you say the WRs were not at fault. I've never seen a Clemson WR Corp (going back to the K.Hatfield days and before then) when the pass catching was so terrible ... at least through the first 6 games. We had innumerable failures to achieve 3rd down conversions due to dropped passes; the only thing that is worse for offensive continuity is turnovers.

But despite what may sound like me arguing with you, I hold your analysis and observations in high regard.

Thanks!

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Re: Honest question, and I do not pretend to know the answer.

[1]
Jan 2, 2022, 8:40 PM

I'm a Steeler fan for 45 years. Let's correct your Ben Worthlessburger comment.
Ben Roethlisberger has 2 Super Bowl rings in 3 Super Bowl appearances. He's won his division title all but 6 years in the 17 that he's been the Steelers QB. He's 5th all time in NFL history in passing yardage.
He's a 1st ballot HOFer when his time comes.

That comment cut me deep 76er , Big Ben has been an all time great ????

I don't know about the rest of what you said ??

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DB23


I don’t care much for Roethlisberger the person but


Jan 2, 2022, 8:53 PM

It’s hard not to respect his body of work over his career. Like an earlier poster said he played a couple of years too long, but I don’t like it when anyone doesn’t respect the path that someone takes at the end of a career without acknowledging the better years of a career.

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"The one who thinks we can and the one who thinks we can't are both right! Which one are you, son? Which one are you, son?"


Since We Are Wondering "out loud" if you will


Jan 2, 2022, 9:10 PM

I have wondered more than a few times if DJU was "over-valued" for one big reason! He played at a perennial powerhouse! Which meant, his squad was likely loaded with the best WR's and OL and RB money can buy(scholarships to St. Jon Bosco).

Side note: I hate the whole private school gets to compete against public school thing! Even if they play up or whatever!

Similar to IMG - are we really surprised that IMG goes undefeated or rarely loses( I know St. Frances Academy stunned them this year). SFA - another example of assembled talent.

To me - if you are a good player on a loaded team like that - you might look better than you are! DJU has a Howitzer for an arm - no doubt. He is a good kid. Bright! Smart!

Just wonder if he would have been a 5-star QB had he played at Dorman or Greensboro Page or Goose Creek H.S? Maybe? Or maybe some of what we have seen would have not been camouflaged by a huge talent gap!

HRT - "you do realize the league he is in can recruit as well"? Yes, but they do not recruit and assemble talent as well as SJBP.
HRT - "you know he went to QB camps right and elite camps"? Yes. Strong arm big guy who passes the eye test - what else you got.
HRT - "did you see him on the road at Notre Dame and home versus BC, he had it then didn't he"? Yes, he did. What else was in play? Did he have to be the man or was it going to be understood he was just a freshman? No pressure means you can play loose and just let it fly; plus the rest of the team tends to step up in those situations right or wrong?

All that said, is stuff I wonder about. Not asking it to be bought by anyone. Frankly, hopefully, I am wrong as wrong can be. In fact, I am not sold on this completely. As I said, "just something I wonder about"!

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And he bends barely legal service personnel over chairs


Jan 2, 2022, 9:00 PM

and stuff ……….. great guy.

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Brad Brownell: all-time losingest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


My comment was much more directed toward Ben the Man,


Jan 2, 2022, 9:02 PM

vs Ben the player. There are some things you do as a human being that just override stuff you do on a field playing a game. Luckily for him, his sexual assaults happened before the "Me, Too" era, and he was able to afford the best lawyers money can buy.

And, before anyone else has to mention it, yes, DeShaun Watson has tiptoed around in that same area now, although not in the same vein as BR. His story is yet to be written.

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Re: Honest question, and I do not pretend to know the answer.


Jan 2, 2022, 9:03 PM

Someone should definitely be held to account for signing the #1 pro style quarterback who played well enough as a true freshman to be the Heisman favorite. Clearly an evaluation miss and nothing else, at all, could be going on.

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Yep, investigation should be launched, because sometime

[1]
Jan 2, 2022, 9:09 PM

between last season and this, THAT guy disappeared!

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Re: Honest question, and I do not pretend to know the answer.


Jan 2, 2022, 9:23 PM

Dabo is accountable, genius. So be a man and call on him to be fired and see how far you get.

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