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Again, this is not democracy
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Again, this is not democracy


Nov 9, 2021, 8:06 AM

Gawds, I loathe gerrymandering. At what point did political affiliation become everything, and give one party a mandate to completely shut the other out of representation? This is exactly what I was talking about in regards to Hungary, where Viktor Orban's Fidesz has almost completely shut all the other parties out of power nationally through redistricting jimmies and built themselves a fake democracy that functions exactly like a real dictatorship.

This is not democracy. Or a "democratic republic" either, for those who like to chirp up and say: "we're a republic and not a democracy" like there's a ton of difference.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/11/09/democrats-gop-shutout-maryland-redistricting-520399


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Re: Again, this is not democracy


Nov 9, 2021, 8:23 AM

chirp

Maryland has a process to correct if they choose to

glad we are a republic

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Re: Again, this is not democracy


Nov 9, 2021, 9:02 AM

Define "republic", please.

Go on, I'm listening.

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Re: Again, this is not democracy


Nov 9, 2021, 9:08 AM

majority of power remains with the state/local governments

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Re: Again, this is not democracy


Nov 9, 2021, 9:23 AM

Sorry. The idea behind a "Republic" is that it keeps the majority from trampling on the rights of minorities, and that crashing waves of popular sentiment would stop what's called "the tyranny of the majority".

When one side is completely shutting the other side out from representation, that is no longer a "representative democracy" - which is what we are, and which is the definition of "republic". (Look it up. And we fought a war with England over "no taxation without representation", remember? It's kind of famous.)

Gerrymandering destroys the whole idea behind a "democracy" or a "democratic republic" because it brings back taxation without representation...the very reason America fought and won its independence to begin with.

The GOP may wind up with zero representatives in Maryland. Right now they have only one. How is that remotely "equal representation" again? And if it's not equal representation...why are their votes worth so much less than the Dems? Are you saying that in any given state the majority can tell the minority that their votes are worth less 'cause they're in charge and they say so? Because that sounds a whole lot like that "tyranny of the majority" thing again.

Okay. Let's see how that works over the long-term.

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Re: Again, this is not democracy


Nov 9, 2021, 9:30 AM

sorry that you dont like it, but the citizens of Maryland retain the right to manage their process of representation

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Re: Again, this is not democracy


Nov 9, 2021, 9:31 AM

i think *Biden's mandate gets shot down in a republic

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Re: Again, this is not democracy


Nov 9, 2021, 9:54 AM [ in reply to Re: Again, this is not democracy ]

Which citizens? The Dems? That's the whole point. Because the Dems control the process, the Republicans literally get no representation.

That's called a "fake democracy". Or a "fake republic", for that matter.

Sit around in a Democratic-controlled state with no representation, for a few years, getting no say in the process or how it's run. See how you feel. You mad yet? It's not cool when the GOP does it either.

Kids in grade school get this concept. Lordy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZCiBjnxhOM

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Re: Again, this is not democracy


Nov 9, 2021, 9:57 AM

all

except maybe convicted felons

maybe

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Childhood is also the time when future adults


Nov 9, 2021, 10:16 AM [ in reply to Re: Again, this is not democracy ]

Learn not to call someone “blitheringly stupid” for the act of having a differing opinion. Lordy.

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Re: Childhood is also the time when future adults


Nov 9, 2021, 10:31 AM

Okay, Obed.

Gerrymandering our nation into straight red-and-blue states where representation for the opposing side is completely drowned out isn't going to end well (and in no way what the Founding Fathers remotely intended) and if you don't somehow know that I don't even know what to say. It strikes me, sorry, as, well, blitheringly stupid - in italics.

Sorry if I think that opinion is better than the nihilistic "we can't do anything right because people are bad so why try" crap you're spouting. Or if it strikes you as fart-smelling.

It frightens me when I see the GOP trying to gerrymander away our democracy to a Hungary-style dictatorship on one side...or when I see the Dems doing the same right back in Illinois and Maryland because, well, them's the rules now and that's just how the game is played.

It doesn't matter which side "wins", when that's the game. We'll wind up either a socialistic dictatorship or a Fascist autocracy and both options sukk.

We built something special here. I'd like to preserve it. This ain't the way.

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Gerrymandering has been around a loooong time.


Nov 9, 2021, 10:38 AM

Both parties are still winning elections back and forth.

In fact, gerrymandering usually comes to the forefront when the other party takes/re-takes power in a state (I saw it happen 3 times as a NC resident) and flips the districting. That doesn’t happen if gerrymandering locks down state voting trends ad infinitum.

Like I said, it’s not perfect nor ultimately desirable, but in some weird dysfunctional way the ebbs and flows tell me it works, and I believe the law of unintended consequences would have alternative “independent” initiatives be far, far less desirable. The evil you know is far, far better than the evil you don’t, and not knowing that strikes me similarly, intelligence-wise.

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Re: Gerrymandering has been around a loooong time.


Nov 9, 2021, 10:51 AM

Okay. (Grinds teeth in frustration.)

So are we arguing process and not result here? Do we agree in principle that a Hungary-style one-party dictatorship or a California-run-amok-style socialism enforced on the country by representative jimmying is fundamentally bad (and is in no way a "republic"!)...and you're actually just saying "it'll work itself out"?

Because, me, I'm saying: we can do better. We don't even have to trust each other, that's the whole point of open-source software. Let both sides examine the parameters before they ever sign off on them. And yeah, there's going to be massive quibbling and arguing and back-room politicking going on...over the parameters. (There should be!) The Constitutional Convention was half screaming match and sh!t-show, they came to blows over some of their issues and I think Aaron Burr ended up shooting Alexander Hamilton in a duel later over some of those issues. And I'm sure there's going to be sh!t-ton of "unintended consequences". There always are. But that's on the next gen to fix, too.

What I'm personally fearing is this militant polarization I'm seeing in the US, this win-at-all-costs-and-just-for-the-sake-of-winning attitude the right - and now the left - seem to be employing now, heedless of whether the cost of winning is going to be our democracy itself...and that if we do nothing, stuff isn't going to just "work itself out".

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Re: Gerrymandering has been around a loooong time.


Nov 9, 2021, 11:03 AM

just admit that you desire an all powerful centralized government



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Re: Gerrymandering has been around a loooong time.


Nov 9, 2021, 11:16 AM

(Takes deep breath.)

No. I am in fact largely Libertarian in my political views and I believe in a smaller, not larger, Federal government. Actually I just believe in less government. I think with the communications technology we have now we can wipe the states out altogether and throw the vast majority of the power directly to counties and cities.

The best government, I personally believe, is the one closest to you, and one of the biggest problems we have going is that there's all these layers of accumulated bureaucracy between our government and the people. You wanna muck up any company? Add a ton of middle management. That's all the states are now. They were administrative entities that have way outlived their usefulness.

I'd throw the power back to the communities. If communities wanna be conservative, allow guns in every hand and open carry, ban abortions, communities should be allowed to do that. If they wanna be flaming liberals, ban all guns, allow gay orgies on the streets...hey, if it's what the community wants to do, fine, as long as the folks can vote on it and as long as there's some kind of representation involved. Let communities live how they want to live, let's all get out of each others' faces about it. And I say that to the yahoos on both sides who seem to be saying: "you must live how I want to live."

To me, that's how we live together without a civil war, if people can live how they want and build the communities they want to build. We'll see successful conservative communities, we'll see successful liberal communities, and we'll see a lot in between, but people will get to choose.

To me, that's the path forward.

If that remotely resembles "communism" to you, well, again, well, carry on.

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Re: Gerrymandering has been around a loooong time.


Nov 9, 2021, 4:22 PM [ in reply to Re: Gerrymandering has been around a loooong time. ]

Alright. (makes j/o motion with semi-closed right fist to indicate indifference to the unneccessary physical reaction descriptors)

I'm not saying "it'll work itself out", I'm pointing out that it HAS been working out for almost 250 years in this country, and we aren't Hungary yet---that's just so much hyperbole. The onus isn't on me to show you why it'll be ok when we have sample of the entire life of the country with gerrymandering in place, the onus is on you to show me why it will STOP being ok.

This is so low on the list of things that will bring our country down that it's not funny, IMHO.

If you want to save the republic (sorry, "democracy") from being irrevokably damaged, I'd focus first and foremost on:

-Term limits
-Higher standards and scrutiny on financial conflicts of interest for elected officials
-Permanent (i.e. not feel-good efforts that a President invokes and revokes) waiting periods before elected officials can work as lobbyists.
-Campaign finance reform, including elimination of super PAC's.
-Permanent ban (on constitutional grounds) on things like the Popular Vote Interstate Compact
-Strident enforcement of border and immigration laws.


If we get all of those done, then I'll cast an eye at gerrymandering as a "nice to have".

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Re: Gerrymandering has been around a loooong time.


Nov 9, 2021, 4:37 PM

I agree with all of those, even LOL'd at the j/o motion. Point to you, sir.

But I ask you how the heck are we going to get all that...with a gerrymandered House? Yeah, we've gerrymandered before, but the problem is, we're now gerrymandering with software...so either way, we're going to use software, either to fix districts or to irrevocably break them, and that's what they're using it for right now. You can input so much data into these things at such a micro level they can accurately predict within a couple of percentage points how many votes each side will get...just by drawing advantageous maps.

That's picking your voters, the complete opposite of democracy. Or a Republic. And as long as you're playing that game these guys are never, ever going to go for the stuff you proposed...which I am 100% across-the-board in agreement with, by the way.

Right now we're just playing a game of crashing waves of stupid from the extreme right and extreme left, and the focus is just on winning, not the why...and certainly not the actual process.

And keep in mind the most heavily-populated states are democratic. If the GOP gerrymanders as much as it can - using software to pack their state advantages to the absolute max - and the Dems then respond in kind to the absolute max...the Dems will then receive a permanent advantage in the House because they have the numbers, by far, and can consequently control far more reps in the House.

And long before then, elections will have ceased to have meant anything, and the parties will have established more-or-less permanent control over the vast majority of states.

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It ain’t perfect, but it’s what we got.


Nov 9, 2021, 8:27 AM

I trust the snakes in the grass doing this stuff in the light of day more than some “independent” commission and software doing it behind the scenes.

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Re: It ain’t perfect, but it’s what we got.


Nov 9, 2021, 8:59 AM

Gawds, Obed, for a smart guy you're being dense about this. There is no mystery whatsoever behind the open-source software folks proposing that they use for redistricting. It's a simple algorithm with open data fields, and the only variable is census data. Since minorities - especially Latinos - have been shown to not respond to censuses nearly as reliably as whites the GOP still gets a baked-in advantage there.

But saying: "hey, finding a means to achieve equal representation here in 2021 is too hard, we can't do it" is just...stupid. Blitheringly stupid. They were looking to achieve that in the 1780's, and if the task is too large for you now our IQ's have seriously declined sharply.

Mostly you're just not interested in actual fairness because it doesn't benefit your "side".

This is one example of the software they're using. It is OPEN SOURCE and will work from anywhere to New York to Texas to the mythical land of Shangri-La. Just input the data fields and press GO.

https://www.districtbuilder.org/


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try reading to understand obed better


Nov 9, 2021, 9:03 AM



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You can't listen when you're too busy talking.


Nov 9, 2021, 9:37 AM

God gave some people two mouths and one ear.

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No, your take is "blitheringly stupid" and naive to the


Nov 9, 2021, 9:36 AM [ in reply to Re: It ain’t perfect, but it’s what we got. ]

extreme if you're looking to have an insulting synonym full italics word fight instead of a discussion.

If there's one variable, even one, that's in control of humans, and there are many in your Utopian open-source master plan, the results will be manipulated, and if you think they won't, you literally have zero understanding and comprehension of human nature and the quest for power.

Sunshine is the best disinfectant as they say, and I'd prefer these (constitutional, BTW) redistricting exercises be done the way they currently are than in some rando open source software that you and your buddies high five each over on some backpage Subreddit.

And cut it out with the cheesy, base "You must be partisan and I'm not" hot take every time someone disagrees with you. It's childish and you have an incredibly inflated opinion of your worldview. I'm literally replying to a thread where you posted Democrats (decidedly NOT my side) using gerrymandering to benefit themselves at the expense of Republicans (not my side either, but a helluva lot closer than Dems). With gerrymandering, both sides win some and lose some....that's sort of how the world should work.

We might have some good discussion again when you stop sniffing your own farts, but until then, I'll return to common courtesy when you do.

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Re: No, your take is "blitheringly stupid" and naive to the


Nov 9, 2021, 9:41 AM

to me, a local authority restricting the movement of free persons wood bee more disconcerting that gerrymandering

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be careful, he may beat you up the first chance he gets...***


Nov 9, 2021, 9:50 AM [ in reply to No, your take is "blitheringly stupid" and naive to the ]



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If she's a hollerer, she'll be a screamer.
If she's a screamer, she'll get you arrested.


When your opponent uses blitheringly, your work is done.***


Nov 9, 2021, 9:51 AM [ in reply to No, your take is "blitheringly stupid" and naive to the ]



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I’m not gonna lie, I can’t read that word


Nov 9, 2021, 10:08 AM

In anything other than Daffy Duck’s voice.

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