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110%er [6492]
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Even as a fully committed atheist,
Apr 15, 2014, 7:01 PM
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I have a very difficult time understanding what exactly this complaint is about
http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/04/15/3786998/atheist-group-files-complaint.html
He's public with his beliefs, but so what? If it has helped players form a foundation for them to not be total screw-ups (I'm looking at you, USC) then I'm all for it. I'd much rather have this "problem" than the opposite where players are having to be constantly bailed out of jail or any number of cover ups for their bad decisions.
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Oculus Spirit [96771]
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Excellent post GT_Tiger. With most of these
Apr 15, 2014, 7:07 PM
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organizations, it's more about them than the people they're supposedly helping.
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Hall of Famer [24419]
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Bring it. Recruiting wise, can't buy this publicity.***
Apr 15, 2014, 7:10 PM
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110%er [6937]
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Re: Buddy, that is the best you can get.***
Apr 15, 2014, 8:10 PM
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Orange Blooded [2721]
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Re: Even as a fully committed atheist,
Apr 15, 2014, 7:19 PM
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Thanks for offering this as an atheist yourself. It is sad to me as a Christian to see how much things have changed in culture and politics with regard to religion. I imagine most atheists, certainly adherents of the New Atheism movement would prefer the proper way to run any institution would be to abstain from any mention of any god, but it seems that would certainly be restrictive for anyone who does believe in he supernatural. It seems the only logical hing to do, is to let people freely be themselves, believe what they believe, and run programs the way they see fit (if their religious beliefs/worldview is what sets the foundation of the moral ethic, then we should not be surprised to see it show up). Political correctness and posturing is killing our society...
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Hall of Famer [24632]
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Calling for PC is merely a tool for 'Divide and Conquer'...
Apr 15, 2014, 7:42 PM
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There's a method to their objective.... It would be interesting to see who are truly the primary benefactors of this group.
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Starter [374]
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Orange Blooded [2721]
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Re: Even as a fully committed atheist,
Apr 16, 2014, 5:43 PM
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The New Atheism is a term used to describe contemporary atheist adherents who are rather outspoken and evangelistic in terms of seeking their own "converts" much like adherents of other religions due. They are known for public debate and for arguing from philosophical naturalistic perspectives to support and advance their claims while attempting to discredit those who believe differently. Their most popular and widely read figures are the 4 Horsemen of the New Atheism (a derogatory term given them for their staunch attacks against Christianity): Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, & Richard Dawkins. This group attacking the Clemson program would certainly fit the bill.
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110%er [6768]
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Dabo doesn't force religion on the players, he simply shares
Apr 15, 2014, 7:21 PM
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his beliefs and allows time for those on the team to do the same. And each player made their own decision which team to play for. Not a single player on the Clemson team was forced to come to Clemson to play football. Dabo has been a vocal Christian from the beginning, and definitely mentions his faith while recruiting. If a player has a problem with it, they are under no obligation to commit to and play for Clemson.
This atheist group seems to be claiming foul while none of the players are. If the players don't have a problem, how could an atheist group totally not related to the program claim to have a problem?
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110%er [5093]
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I don't believe your are thinking this one through.
Apr 15, 2014, 7:51 PM
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If you see your neighbor beating his wife. Are you just going to stand on the sideline and let it be?
No one forced her to marry him. She's not calling the cops.
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Standout [335]
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Re: I don't believe your are thinking this one through.
Apr 15, 2014, 7:54 PM
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You are an idiot to make such a comparison. Go back to your coot board where all the thugs hang out. Usuck could use a little Dabo do.
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Oculus Spirit [96771]
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110%er [5093]
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No. I'm not
Apr 15, 2014, 8:05 PM
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I'm comparing the logic behind saying, " I know it's wrong but it's ok as long as the people affected aren't complaining."
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All-In [29036]
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Who said that
Apr 15, 2014, 8:08 PM
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Who said "I know it's wrong but it's ok as long as the people affected aren't complaining"?
His point, I believe, was that the individuals IN the situation are seemingly not thinking it is wrong.
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Virtuoso [656]
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The thing is, it isn't wrong. He's not forcing them to do
Apr 15, 2014, 8:09 PM
[ in reply to No. I'm not ] |
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Anything. What Dabo is doing isn't hurting or threatening anyone. While there is separation from Church and State, Dabo still has freedom to express his religion, as long as it isn't persecuting, which it isn't.
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110%er [6768]
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I don't think what Dabo is doing is wrong. If he were
Apr 15, 2014, 8:10 PM
[ in reply to No. I'm not ] |
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deceiving players into signing a commitment under the guise that they could freely practice any religion, then forcing them to attend Christian ceremonies against their will, I would say what he is doing is wrong.
Obviously he isn't doing that, or I'm sure a player would have come forward by now.
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Oculus Spirit [81607]
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That's not even remotely close to what is being said.***
Apr 15, 2014, 8:52 PM
[ in reply to No. I'm not ] |
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Heisman Winner [119519]
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Class of 09
Apr 15, 2014, 9:00 PM
[ in reply to No. I'm not ] |
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you are ignorant AND stupid....but if you went to cootU, I can understand...
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110%er [6937]
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CU Medallion [51520]
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110%er [6768]
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All-In [29036]
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This argument is really only valid
Apr 15, 2014, 8:06 PM
[ in reply to I don't believe your are thinking this one through. ] |
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If you believe that players in the program who are "exposed" to Dabo's religious views are in any way being abused.
Is that really the argument you are making?
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110%er [5093]
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Thom if you want to argue about degrees of
Apr 15, 2014, 8:10 PM
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Infringement that is your prerogative. But I'm not going to waste my time debating at what level something is wrong.
We can just agree to disagree on that and merely agree it is wrong.
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All-In [29036]
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No
Apr 15, 2014, 8:12 PM
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You are making the assumption, evidently, that exposure to religious belief is, in itself, wrong.
I do not concede that point at all.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: I don't believe your are thinking this one through.
Apr 15, 2014, 8:36 PM
[ in reply to I don't believe your are thinking this one through. ] |
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Here comes Classless09 to tell us how having religion around your program is awful but telling kids to pack their bags because your slimeball coach oversigns yearly is acceptable.
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CU Medallion [51520]
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Fan [70]
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Re: Dabo doesn't force religion on the players, he simply shares
Apr 15, 2014, 8:04 PM
[ in reply to Dabo doesn't force religion on the players, he simply shares ] |
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Clemson is a public school. Players of all religions should feel equally welcome on the Clemson football team. Players are all free to pray, worship however/whenever they like but Christianity shouldn't be pushed as part of the program.
I don't know enough about Dabo to say that's the case, but the, "they knew he was like that when they committed" excuse is wrong. If players want to be on a christian team then they should go play for Notre Dame or BC
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All-In [29036]
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Fair enough
Apr 15, 2014, 8:11 PM
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And I'm not sure the "they knew what they were getting into" argument holds water either. However, it seems a stretch is being made in assuming that there exists, in the team, an inappropriate pressure towards Christianity.
We don't know that. And I believe that is the heart of the issue.
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110%er [6768]
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Do you think the players have no clue what the mentality
Apr 15, 2014, 8:23 PM
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and beliefs of the coaches are? I'm sure some sad sacks mislead and deceive players, but most of them give players the full "run down" of how the program works. As in they are shown what their football related schedule will entail from the very beginning.
Weight Training
Practice Schedules
Philanthropy (if applicable)
Study Hall
ETC
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All-In [29036]
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That is not my point at all
Apr 15, 2014, 8:29 PM
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My points are fairly simple:
1) If the staff does abuse their position of authority by inappropriately enforcing Christian faith in the system then the "They knew what they were getting into" argument doesn't matter.
2) I don't believe we have any reason to believe the staff does inappropriately force a Christian culture on players.
You don't have to argue "they knew what they were getting into" to not see a problem here.
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110%er [6768]
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Right on. I see your point. And I agree.***
Apr 15, 2014, 10:24 PM
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Virtuoso [656]
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110%er [6768]
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As Dabo has said, there have been players of many different
Apr 15, 2014, 8:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: Dabo doesn't force religion on the players, he simply shares ] |
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faiths on the team. If they feel they are being given an equal opportunity to participate in their faith, then how can someone (or some entity that has zero true inside information) say they aren't? These are young men, but they aren't idiots. If they didn't feel they had a fair shake, someone would have spoken up by now.
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Legend [19352]
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Devotee [322]
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All-Pro [692]
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Re: Even as a fully committed atheist,
Apr 15, 2014, 7:27 PM
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Seems ironic that these groups seem to want to do exactly what they seem to be accusing others of doing, imposing their beliefs on everyone. They need to chill out and let Clemson run it's football program like they have the right to do.
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Orange Blooded [2348]
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As an agnostic, I agree.
Apr 15, 2014, 7:41 PM
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I really get upset when these militant types (atheist or religious) want to do away with something helpful and good. To be honest, I am proud of Dabo's accomplishments through his faith. He gives credit to what he truly believes in his heart and his belief does not cause any harm as far as I can tell. He has been a great mentor to his players on and off the field. He is relentless and selfless. Us Clemson folks will always hold him in a higher regard than any other coach in Clemson football history when it is all said and done, and that crystal football will only be a small part of the reason.
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Hall of Famer [24632]
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x2... +1 and well stated.***
Apr 15, 2014, 7:43 PM
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110%er [6768]
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Lukerum, I almost shed a tear after reading your post.
Apr 15, 2014, 8:05 PM
[ in reply to As an agnostic, I agree. ] |
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I can't wait to see Dabo hoist that magnificent egg.
Oh, and safe travels to Sox country.
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Orange Blooded [2348]
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Thank you, FootballFan36***
Apr 15, 2014, 8:41 PM
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110%er [6095]
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If this is Clemson biggest "problem" we are in great shape
Apr 15, 2014, 7:45 PM
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I'm am proud of our coach and school and hope we don't change a thing
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CU Medallion [55607]
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As a committed Christian, I think Dabo has gone too far
Apr 15, 2014, 7:51 PM
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at times.
I first got uncomfortable with the after-practice baptism of Nuk. Then I read the Chronicle article that is referenced in what you cite. I don't think anyone could read that article and think a non-Christian would be totally comfortable in Dabo's program. It makes me wonder how comfortable The Chad and BV are, as neither of them are outspoken in whatever beliefs they hold.
Clemson is a state school and there is separation of church and state. This challenge was bound to happen.
That said, Dabo does play up the "family" thing and that seems to work very well. It was Pete Carroll's shtick at USC.
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Orange Blooded [4781]
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Re: As a committed Christian, I think Dabo has gone too far
Apr 15, 2014, 8:12 PM
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A non-Christian would probably be uncomfortable,
any time they hear the word of God...Since you
are a Christian,do what Christian's should do.
Be a witness for Christ any time there is an
opportunity to do so...Dabo is doing that but
not going overboard..As far as Chad and Brent,
they witness in a different way..
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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A committed Christian being "uncomfortable" about Nuk's
Apr 15, 2014, 8:17 PM
[ in reply to As a committed Christian, I think Dabo has gone too far ] |
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baptism? I would never be uncomfortable about someone accepting Christ as their Saviour and being baptised anywhere and anytime.
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All-In [32567]
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And it was Nuk's request to do the baptism the when & where
Apr 16, 2014, 6:56 AM
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it was done.
And based on the picture I saw, the players weren't forced to stay and witness it. Seemed way less than a "packed house" standing around the tub.
All this is a buncha carp.
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All-In [27366]
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Those idiots need to actually read the constitution.
Apr 15, 2014, 7:54 PM
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If they can find one somewhere.
Don't think anyone's been using it lately.
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Rock Defender [56]
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Re: Those idiots need to actually read the constitution.
Apr 15, 2014, 8:00 PM
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This is horse crap! I love how teams like Clemson and several others make God the center of there program.
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Legend [16209]
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All I know is, after all the Ancient Aliens episodes I've
Apr 15, 2014, 8:07 PM
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watched the past few years...
Creationism is now back on the table.
A-theists, Mono-theists, Poly-theists... as long as you're not trying to cram it down my throat, more power to you.
Go Tigers!
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Hall of Famer [24632]
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Alien Creatoinism?***
Apr 15, 2014, 8:09 PM
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Legend [16209]
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No matter how it's spun, God was no Earthling.***
Apr 15, 2014, 8:29 PM
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Hall of Famer [24632]
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I agree...***
Apr 15, 2014, 9:19 PM
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All-In [25850]
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Even as a fully committed atheist,
Apr 15, 2014, 8:34 PM
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### is a fully committed atheist?
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Oculus Spirit [81607]
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Same as a fully committed Christian***
Apr 15, 2014, 8:56 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93575]
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Re: Same as a fully committed Christian***
Apr 15, 2014, 9:10 PM
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Do they prosthelytize?
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Oculus Spirit [81607]
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The FFRF is***
Apr 15, 2014, 9:21 PM
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All-In [32567]
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Devotee [322]
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Re: Even as a fully committed atheist,
Apr 15, 2014, 9:09 PM
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This group needs to just back off and let people practice their first amendment rights without getting their panties in a wad.
And, another thing...who wanted the complaint in the first place? If it was someone from Clemson, then I can understand them getting involved. If not, what is their problem?
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Oculus Spirit [93575]
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As a halfazzed committed Christian,
Apr 15, 2014, 9:13 PM
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I would let the dead bury the dead.
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110%er [9942]
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I firmly am Christian***
Apr 15, 2014, 9:22 PM
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Varsity [240]
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Re: Even as a fully committed atheist,
Apr 15, 2014, 9:41 PM
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by the deffinition of a religion from websters a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects isant atheism technically a religion and hence if they are forcing it upon people they are in violation of the constitution in the same way as they are complaing about and should start lobbying aginst themself. They are after all the freedom from religion foundation..
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110%er [5093]
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No, just no
Apr 15, 2014, 9:46 PM
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It's amazing people can't see the difference.
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Oculus Spirit [81607]
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Care to explain to us how sharing your beliefs with your
Apr 15, 2014, 9:59 PM
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team as Dabo does is equivalent to domestic abuse again?
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Varsity [240]
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Re: No, just no
Apr 15, 2014, 10:20 PM
[ in reply to No, just no ] |
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Ok Coot Class09 splain it then. what is a religion i could care less about what someones religion is did reciting the lords prayer before football games turn me into a christian no just like hanging out with my homosexual buddies didnt turn me gay. So how is someone who is preaching their beliefs a violation of the constitution. Dabo merly works for an istitution that is partially funded by the state he is not the supreme ruler of the state nor is he the general assembly. The south carolina constitution and the United States constitution are pretty clear,
SC constitution SECTION 2. Religious freedom; freedom of speech; right of assembly and petition.
The General Assembly shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government or any department thereof for a redress of grievances.
US Constitution
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Now where in either of them does it say that someone that gets paid partially by the state of federal government cant preach or pray or do a rain dance if that is what he believes will help his player be better people
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110%er [6768]
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For the love of Science, please use some punctuation.***
Apr 15, 2014, 10:26 PM
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110%er [5093]
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Your last line is just absurd
Apr 15, 2014, 10:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: No, just no ] |
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Do you honestly believe the constitution should spell out every action we can and cannot do?
The group who submitted this letter is not preaching to the university, to dabo or to you.
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Varsity [240]
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Re: Your last line is just absurd
Apr 15, 2014, 10:49 PM
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The constitution of both the state and federal governmnet are the basis of all laws. If a group is going to use the cosnstitution as their basis for the argument then it should be pretty clear. In both the state and federal constitution it is clear when it says that the general assembly or congress shall make no law with respect to establishment of religion or the free exercise there of. If the state and federal government dosent make a law that say that you have to be athiest or christian or anything else for that matter, what dabo dose with his group has nothing to do with the general assembly.
If they are forcing there to be nothing then they are focing their beliefs and their religion on the universtiy and the football players that are christian.
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Fan [67]
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Re: Your last line is just absurd
Apr 16, 2014, 8:19 AM
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If dabo was a buddhist or islamist and was vocal about his beliefs and tried to encourage all the players to join him in devotional time and prayer would we all still support that?
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CU Guru [1254]
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Re: Even as a fully committed atheist,
Apr 15, 2014, 10:14 PM
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If there was no God then there would be no atheist! Being an atheist proves that there is a God!
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110%er [6768]
TigerPulse: 81%
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Joined: 2/13/05
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no it doesn't. think about things before you just
Apr 15, 2014, 10:27 PM
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regurgitate rhetoric.
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Hall of Famer [24632]
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Lopsided 'logic'....***
Apr 15, 2014, 11:07 PM
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Fan [67]
TigerPulse: 79%
Posts: 90
Joined: 11/2/13
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Re: Even as a fully committed atheist,
Apr 16, 2014, 8:11 AM
[ in reply to Re: Even as a fully committed atheist, ] |
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This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen posted. I think what you mean is that, if there was NO BELIEF in GOD there would be no atheist. Just because there are atheist doesnt prove theres a God. It proves that there exist, in society, a belief that there is a God. LOL
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: Even as a fully committed atheist,
Apr 16, 2014, 6:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Even as a fully committed atheist, ] |
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If there were no leprechauns there would be no one who disbelieves in leprechauns! Not believing in leprechauns proves they exist!
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CU Guru [1898]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3418
Joined: 11/7/01
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What is the difference in a "fully committed atheist" and
Apr 16, 2014, 12:00 AM
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a plain atheist? Just wondering.
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Oculus Spirit [93575]
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A plain atheist is just mad at God because...
Apr 16, 2014, 8:16 AM
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his puppy got run over by a car and he figures since he screwed up and let the dog out in the first place God was the only one who could have prevented it.
A committed atheist forms run-on sentences.
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Starter [374]
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Joined: 10/16/11
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Re: Even as a fully committed atheist,
Apr 16, 2014, 8:55 AM
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I still want to know what a full commited atheist is.
I'm fully committed to not being a theist?
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Ring of Honor [26353]
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So is that like sometimes believing there might be a God?
Apr 16, 2014, 8:58 AM
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Like every other Tuesday or something??
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Starter [374]
TigerPulse: 76%
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Joined: 10/16/11
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Re: So is that like sometimes believing there might be a God?
Apr 16, 2014, 10:12 AM
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Every other tuesday is when it's okay to be a baptist
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Ring of Honor [26353]
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You has the confuse, it's always a good time to be baptist
Apr 16, 2014, 11:25 AM
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signed,
-bob
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Orange Blooded [2721]
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Re: Even as a fully committed atheist,
Apr 16, 2014, 5:54 PM
[ in reply to Re: Even as a fully committed atheist, ] |
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Answered your question above about the New Atheism. Just out of curiosity, what makes you fully committed to not being a theist? Not trying to troll, just honestly interested in what would make someone fully committed to that but not to atheism.
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