Replies: 63
| visibility 1
|
Oculus Spirit [97677]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64821
Joined: 7/13/02
|
Elon Musk.....seems his deadline has now passed.
Nov 17, 2022, 7:49 PM
|
|
It went swimmingly. All Twitter offices are closed through Sunday. Seems he lost a lot of essential employees with the latest stunt.
#popcorngif
|
|
|
|
All-In [34486]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13513
Joined: 8/30/19
|
No man, he's thinking 5 moves ahead.
Nov 17, 2022, 7:50 PM
|
|
You don't get rich like him unless you're a genius.
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155707]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65738
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Yes. His intelligence is regularly a point of contention.***
Nov 17, 2022, 8:16 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34486]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13513
Joined: 8/30/19
|
I agree. The guy could rape my mother and
Nov 17, 2022, 9:41 PM
|
|
you'd still have to respect the foresight and strategy of it all.
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155707]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65738
Joined: 5/6/13
|
I bet he didn’t even get your $12 Covid stimulus.
Nov 17, 2022, 10:32 PM
|
|
That’s how dumb he is.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34486]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13513
Joined: 8/30/19
|
Elon is gonna be okay.
Nov 18, 2022, 8:49 AM
|
|
I'm sure he appreciates all the stanning on his behalf though.
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155707]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65738
Joined: 5/6/13
|
No stanning, dude has flaws for sure.
Nov 18, 2022, 1:08 PM
|
|
I'm just saying, you, Tiggity, etc trying to throw jabs at his intelligence is like DJU saying Usain Bolt is slow.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34486]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13513
Joined: 8/30/19
|
Not really my point or my position at all, but
Nov 18, 2022, 5:17 PM
|
|
I'm pretty sure you're smart enough yourself to know that. Explaining the intention behind my OP kinda ruins the passive aggressive snarkiness of it all. Have a good weekend dude.
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155707]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65738
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Look, if it makes you feel better,
Nov 18, 2022, 5:23 PM
|
|
I'd put myself in the DJU analogy box as well too in that scenario.
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [64837]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 22718
Joined: 9/27/04
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [180915]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 94593
Joined: 12/5/10
|
Sounds like you want to blow him.***
Nov 17, 2022, 7:54 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
you are oddly triggered by Elon***
Nov 17, 2022, 8:08 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [135681]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 41582
Joined: 8/26/07
|
Re: Elon Musk.....seems his deadline has now passed.
Nov 17, 2022, 9:14 PM
|
|
Yeah, I know I’ve used it before but I like it
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [11626]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9788
Joined: 5/17/02
|
A bunch of entitled, overpaid twitter employees got called
Nov 17, 2022, 9:24 PM
|
|
out by their new overlord. Welcome to the real world. Now you'll see how good you had it.
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
Looks more like it's Phony Stark who's getting the
Nov 18, 2022, 9:40 AM
|
|
reality check in this situation. Departing Twitter employees may have to job hunt, but he's gonna be out $44 billion and his reputation's in the shitter.
I don't think there's any way to spin this situation in Musk's favor.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80999]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
I understand that 75% of employees decided not to be
Nov 18, 2022, 9:49 AM
|
|
"hardcore" for twitter, and basically that left the H-1B contract visa employees.
I love when hubris and arrogance get slapped in the face with reality. Its schadenfreude at its finest.
chefskiss.gif
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [137807]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63761
Joined: 10/22/00
|
I'm curious at how you arrived at this narrative.
Nov 18, 2022, 10:02 AM
[ in reply to A bunch of entitled, overpaid twitter employees got called ] |
|
I'm fairly certain Twitter had been performing well and turning profits to shareholders up to the point of sale to Musk. I could maybe see this take if Twitter was struggling--unnecessary, inefficient, lazy employees or a bloated workforce would be one of the first rocks to turn over.
This feels like some sort of unnecessary caping or admiration for Musk's CEO style or work ethic or something.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80999]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Somehow this all turned political.
Nov 18, 2022, 10:04 AM
|
|
I guess since Musk said he was going to let Trump back on Twitter, MAGA became a fan.
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155707]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65738
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Yes, that's the minute the entire left began hating him.
Nov 18, 2022, 1:01 PM
|
|
It did become political.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80999]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
I don;t have any political lean against Elon one way or
Nov 18, 2022, 2:11 PM
|
|
another. I just like to see arrogant people fail.
Its a weakness.
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
I don't hate him.
Nov 18, 2022, 2:42 PM
[ in reply to Yes, that's the minute the entire left began hating him. ] |
|
From the moment he floated the idea of buying Twitter I thought it was extremely weird. At the time I said, here in fact, that if I were going to spend $44 billion on something, Twitter would be near the end of the list. The situation has gotten increasingly preposterous since then. It's the quintessential trainwreck you can't stop watching.
Politics came into play with all the "free speech" nonsense, which made him a darling of the right and failed spectacularly in practice. Turns out Twitter content moderation wasn't driven by an anti-conservative agenda after all.
It's hard to believe anyone can watch what he's been doing and conclude that his judgment is state of the art. Anyone sticking up for him at this point is doing it for an ulterior purpose and in most cases it's because they'd cheered him in the past (whether because of politics or something else) and don't want to admit that they were wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79182]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 24915
Joined: 8/29/12
|
Without Musk, I never would have been able to buy things
Nov 18, 2022, 2:45 PM
|
|
off Ebay using Paypal in the early 2000's. Thanks Musk!
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155707]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65738
Joined: 5/6/13
|
I just don't think the narrative jives with reality at all.
Nov 18, 2022, 2:48 PM
[ in reply to I don't hate him. ] |
|
The guy was the darling of the left, primarily for Tesla and his outspoken environmental leanings.
As a conservative, I don't really embrace all the environmental stuff as top of my priority list, but it didn't turn me off because the guy wasn't sitting around begging for govt handouts (well, after repaying the initial govt loan anyway)....he tried to build a business model based off generating actual market demand and it worked quite well.
Then the guy starts talking about free speech and buys Twitter and he's a democracy killer to the same people. I don't care why he wants it or if he's wasting his money, the reaction to him is bizarre and incredibly political.
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
I don't think his employees' reaction to him is political.
Nov 18, 2022, 3:04 PM
|
|
That's a large part of what I'm basing my assessment on.
The only political conversation I ever had about Musk in the past had to do with the waivers he got to sell cars online/in a store as opposed to a dealership, which are required to meet certain state regulations. Then again, maybe I'm not a typical liberal.
Elon was seen as a visionary and his success with Tesla and SpaceX plus his staggering wealth made him seem like a super genius tech business wizard. Now that reputation is completely falling apart. None of that seems political to me.
Oh, he also became a bit of a Twitter troll relatively recently, which just makes him look kinda sad. Again, not political, just kinda small and petty and inconsistent with his lofty image.
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155707]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65738
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Part of that is my point.
Nov 18, 2022, 3:27 PM
|
|
The dude changed the landscape for EV’s and privatized space travel, and if you hear him talk for 5 minutes, he played a part in both. He’s not some derp Chaz who sat around playing golf while paying others to make cool stuff, he was in the thick of it.
For someone to say his level of geniusry for those is diminished by whatever happens at Twitter, tells me that it really isn’t about Twitter at all.
He could spend his fortune building a sand factory in the Sahara and his geniusry for Tesla and SpaceX should not be diminished to a rational thinking person.
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [23987]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12107
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: Part of that is my point.
Nov 18, 2022, 4:20 PM
|
|
Ever since he accepted a position on a cabinet of business owners that was put together by the last President (and stayed on briefly), he's been a dummy to the REAL geniuses.
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
So I guess we're somewhat agreeing here.
Nov 18, 2022, 4:34 PM
[ in reply to Part of that is my point. ] |
|
If you have a high opinion of him and you see what's going on with Twitter right now, you'll be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. And you might average his Twitter failure with his Tesla/SpaceX successes and conclude that he's still a phenomenal person. Especially because if he's been sort of a dumbass this whole time and you've considered him brilliant, well that reflects on your judgment.
It's also true that the mob is fickle. People are already predicting redemption stories in the press two years from now and people will probably eat that up.
To me the way he's handled this whole Twitter thing has been exceedingly strange and a comedy of errors from the jump. And it's absolutely a reflection of his intelligence and his judgment. He literally tweeted, "Please note that Twitter will do lots of dumb things in the comings months." So far that's been true! I agree vehemently with his prediction!
Maybe he's not the same person he was in the early days of Tesla, I don't know. These are the questions we have to ask now, if he was really brilliant all along or maybe it was a combination of ambition, luck, and being surrounded by the right people.
As a layperson, it's obvious to me how misguided it would be to abandon content moderation on Twitter, especially from a business perspective. I'm not sure what he thought would happen. And to change the purpose of the blue check without expecting exactly what happened to happen... it's difficult to believe someone of even average human intelligence wouldn't see that coming. And lastly, the way he's handled staffing - from huge instant layoffs to arbitrary ultimatums and firing people via tweet - it doesn't come across like the actions of a business genius. Or a regular genius. Or even an average person. If he were as smart as people say, then you have to wonder what's really going on right now.
The idea that the negative reactions and assessments are politically motivated are an unfortunate misreading of the situation.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34536]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 41381
Joined: 4/20/01
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [11145]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14027
Joined: 9/2/03
|
He’s a space Karen.***
Nov 18, 2022, 7:26 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46801]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30710
Joined: 8/11/15
|
Hmmm, long hours of intense "hardcore" work
Nov 18, 2022, 7:44 AM
|
|
or 3 months severance while I float my highly in demand skills and resume to other companies who are dying to hire me.
What could go wrong?
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [97677]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64821
Joined: 7/13/02
|
I understand him cutting jobs. I actually understand what
Nov 18, 2022, 8:42 AM
|
|
he's TRYING to do. But the WAY he's doing it is all wrong. To start with, you don't sign a document and agree to purchase a company that's essentially never turned a profit, for $44 billion, BEFORE securing financing. So when they held his feet to the fire on his signature and agreement, he then tried to back out. A court said no. He's no stranger to courts btw. So there's the first red flag. Not the type of guy I'd want to work for. Too impulsive IMO.
But nevertheless, he's forced to make a bad investment because of his impulsivity. Fine. Now most good business leaders, of any company, would go to work and initially not change a thing, and learn how the company works. Who is critical, and who plays solitaire or reads fanfiction on their phone all day. THEN you selective fire them. And even then, you almost never fire 50% of the company, but whatever. Also, you generally don't fire them via email with a cute meme picture. You let their manager fire them, and provide a reason for the firing. NEXT, you generally don't send out an email with a form to sign, with the remaining 50% of employees, demanding they work harder or whatever, or they're fired.
The way he sees Twitter is his biggest mistake, I promise. His biggest problem is HE HAD THE MONEY PERSONALLY to purchase Twitter, without financing. He doesn't want to sell his Tesla stock, and devalue Tesla more, to pay for Twitter. This is why he went to SAUDI ARABIA seeking financing from his usual sources. They balked as his Tesla stock had already been hit, meaning Musk had to spend money he didn't want to spend.
There are two ways to change a culture. You have the Jesus approach, or the Hitler approach. Both work, but one works better than the other. And then finally you have the irony. The biggest tool Musk had to pump and dump, which has netted him and countless others billions, is now crumbling under his leadership. Maybe ultimately, that's the goal. I dunno.
Oh, and looking into the future, with a skeleton staff, there's absolutely ZERO WAY they can moderate Twitter with the staff they have. Sure, you can have the app and servers run with maybe 50 people. BUT, you will need thousands to moderate content, otherwise you're setting yourself up for a massive liability (it's already happened with Eli Lilly). Someone shorted their stock, paid $8 for a "Certified Blue" check or whatever, then posted garbage causing Eli Lilly stock to plummet by millions. And here's the kicker, if you are in charge of verifying accounts, and you verify a fake account, and then that fake account causes monetary damages, then you are liable. I promise you the most difficult job at Twitter, that required the majority of their staff and is arguably the most important, was moderation and verification.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46801]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30710
Joined: 8/11/15
|
He's acting like the son of the manager who comes in
Nov 18, 2022, 8:50 AM
|
|
after daddy retires to straighten up the ######## he things is there. Then runs the company into the ground and daddy has to come back from Florida to fix his son's ####.
Seen it happen many times
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34486]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13513
Joined: 8/30/19
|
Before you criticize Elon,
Nov 18, 2022, 8:57 AM
|
|
did you know that he owns an electric car company and a spacecraft company and makes memes that own the libs? Also, did you know that he's a super interesting person?
Think twice before you answer.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [97677]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64821
Joined: 7/13/02
|
Did you know.....
Nov 18, 2022, 11:16 AM
|
|
If you take the total profits of all of his companies, SpaceX, Twitter, Tesla, and add up the TOTAL PROFITS those companies have earned, EVER, and put it in a pile and counted the dollars, it would not equal anything close to HALF of his "wealth"?
He can't even get his hands on half of his "wealth" if he tried. Not to mention Twitter, and SpaceX are privately owned. So no one knows their profits. But even with total revenues, assuming 100% profits, nope....not even half.
I just shake my head sometimes. What can you do. He has everyone believing he has $200 billion. Then suddenly he has $100 billion. And no one bats an eye at where he "got" the $200 billion or what happened to the $100 billion.
We have an existential crisis in this country, where perception is used, and manipulated, in order to create a reality that just....isn't. And it's dangerous. That dude from FTX or whatever, with the crypto, that's just another example. He had celebrities endorsing him, he had investors sinking in money, he had all this "wealth", on paper, and then....he didn't. The whole CRT thing, with the propaganda video with the ominous music, jittery screen, and some woman talking off the record informally. If you had a heart attack, would you ask the politics of the surgeon, or just let him save your life? I for one, would NOT want my children to be taught by only republicans OR democrats, because one day they will grow up, and will have to deal with both, doing whatever they can find to do to help....BOTH.
We will learn our lesson eventually.
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155707]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65738
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Update:
Nov 18, 2022, 1:47 PM
[ in reply to Before you criticize Elon, ] |
|
add FBC to the list of people slinging intelligence insults at a guy with a U Penn physics degree and Wharton Econ degree and scholarship acceptance to a Stanford PhD program.
You're in high company.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79182]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 24915
Joined: 8/29/12
|
YObed
Nov 18, 2022, 2:21 PM
|
|
Even if all that were true, still doesn't make him a good businessman. Coming in and scrapping the place like that was dumb, no way around it.
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155707]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65738
Joined: 5/6/13
|
A single tweet?
Nov 18, 2022, 2:30 PM
|
|
I searched for a few minutes and could find nothing verifying that.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79182]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 24915
Joined: 8/29/12
|
The pig in the tweet seems to stem from the real
Nov 18, 2022, 2:43 PM
|
|
suit of Eberhard V. Musk. Can't find anything where Musk denies it. Found an article that confirms he went to studies at Wharton and holds a degree, but not physics from UPenn.
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155707]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65738
Joined: 5/6/13
|
I'm not saying it's wrong, but I am saying
Nov 18, 2022, 2:50 PM
|
|
I'd need to see something more substantial than that to just assume he's George O'Leary part II.
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4086]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2474
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Update:
Nov 18, 2022, 4:11 PM
[ in reply to Update: ] |
|
On a note somewhat related to this comment, did anyone else notice the thumbs down button is broken?
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [135504]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 91601
Joined: 12/6/98
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79182]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 24915
Joined: 8/29/12
|
Re: "Seen it happen many times"
Nov 18, 2022, 9:45 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79182]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 24915
Joined: 8/29/12
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79182]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 24915
Joined: 8/29/12
|
Wat TF Double post?***
Nov 18, 2022, 9:46 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [40875]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 42932
Joined: 11/30/98
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
You don't need to be on the board of directors to see this
Nov 18, 2022, 11:26 AM
|
|
happen. It's a common phenomenon. Maybe not the "daddy coming back" part, but the "son ####### everything up" part.
The problem comes, though, when the family puts one of their own in the C-Suite, especially the when the eldest son becomes the CEO, primogeniture being the most common form of family succession. Some variation of the old saying “from clogs to clogs in three generations” exists across many cultures; in Chinese the proverb is “from paddy field to paddy field in three generations.”
https://hbr.org/2011/03/family-firms-need-professionalFamily Firms Need Professional Management In emerging countries like India and Brazil, family-run firms are the norm, and even in the richer nations small and medium sized enterprises are predominantly family firms. Despite their ubiquity, a longstanding battle has raged over whether family firms are really good for business. Having a large block of shares in the hands of a […]
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155707]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65738
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Hmmmm, what if
Nov 18, 2022, 1:59 PM
|
|
it's a high level football coach giving his sons spots on the team that are well above their actual talent level?
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42026]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38173
Joined: 11/30/98
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12233]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5388
Joined: 9/12/04
|
Maybe you are right about all that... then again maybe the
Nov 18, 2022, 8:57 AM
[ in reply to I understand him cutting jobs. I actually understand what ] |
|
world's richest business man actually knows more about the actual situation inside of Twitter than the "hellscape" reporting and is doing exactly the right thing.
Time. Will. Tell
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79182]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 24915
Joined: 8/29/12
|
You're right we'll have to see what
Nov 18, 2022, 9:47 AM
|
|
Jeff Bezos does.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [40875]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 42932
Joined: 11/30/98
|
He didn't obtain new financing from Saudis
Nov 18, 2022, 9:50 AM
[ in reply to I understand him cutting jobs. I actually understand what ] |
|
they just continued their investment. He just kept the major investors and made them private instead of public. Now they could have invested a bit more or less, but it was not a lot of new players.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80999]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80999]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21888]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8572
Joined: 9/11/11
|
Labor market is starting to crack though man
Nov 18, 2022, 9:33 AM
[ in reply to Hmmm, long hours of intense "hardcore" work ] |
|
Being led by the tech sector. I wouldn't bank on finding a job right now, nor 3 months from now, like I would 6 months ago.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80999]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
A coder with twitter on their resume?
Nov 18, 2022, 9:54 AM
|
|
May not be the cushy gig they had before, or making as much, but I'd guess most of then can work when and where they want to.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46801]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30710
Joined: 8/11/15
|
Lulz at the irony
Nov 18, 2022, 9:39 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80999]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80999]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Lutz
Nov 18, 2022, 10:16 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [20569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8610
Joined: 10/27/00
|
Wood NOT dew***
Nov 18, 2022, 10:35 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79182]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 24915
Joined: 8/29/12
|
oof
Nov 18, 2022, 10:20 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42747]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10407
Joined: 3/1/18
|
Re: oof
Nov 18, 2022, 10:23 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [20569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8610
Joined: 10/27/00
|
So now Alex is a highly-paid consultant***
Nov 18, 2022, 10:36 AM
[ in reply to oof ] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80999]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
I'd make that as painful as possible.***
Nov 18, 2022, 1:26 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Team Captain [487]
TigerPulse: 86%
Posts: 398
Joined: 7/4/11
|
Re: Elon Musk.....seems his deadline has now passed.
Nov 18, 2022, 12:54 PM
|
|
This is Elon justifying saving a whole bunch of money. Twitter is fine.
|
|
|
|
Replies: 63
| visibility 1
|
|
|