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YOUR BALANCE
Clemson basketball perspective
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Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 20, 2021, 9:21 PM

I see a ton of emotional pre-teens on tigernet calling for brownell’s head. I understand the frustration but these knee jerk reaction posts are funny and also sad.

I advise you take a step back, put our programs history and current state into perspective and think about what you really want. It’s funny that all the people that cover Clemson all agree that it would be dumb to fire brownell, But some thumb gangsters on tigernet think they know way better.

There’s certainly room for improvement. I said after last year that if we didn’t make the tourney this year brownell should be fired. Well we made the tourney. If we don’t make the tourney next year I think he should be tired. Brownell has a short leash, but to say he should be fired after this season is truly idiotic.

https://twitter.com/mattonclemson/status/1373329613422788611?s=21

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Not knee jerk.***

1

Mar 20, 2021, 9:23 PM



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Re: Not knee jerk.***


Mar 20, 2021, 9:27 PM

So you watched all the games this season know the personnel we have coming back and you want him fired?

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Yes I do follow the program very closely.

1

Mar 21, 2021, 8:36 AM

No, I don’t think there’s any chance he will get fired this year because our administration won’t do that.

We do have enough sample to size to know this is not going to get any better.

We’re going to struggle next year. And we’re going to hear about how much we miss Aamir and how our guys just can’t make shots.

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Re: Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 20, 2021, 9:56 PM

I’m not usually one to discredit the players. I know they worked their assets off like they do every year. But there is no denying the ACC was down. Duke and UNC sucked. I think that factor plays into some of our success this year. Certainly not all because our players have my respect but I feel with better leadership they could....should have won a few extra games. I just think it’s time for new leadership. Brownell was good. But he never showed greatness. Never showed me the type of ambitious attitude that inspires young men to play to full potential.

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Re: Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 20, 2021, 10:06 PM

I agree with a lot of your points. As I said, he’s on a short leash. Brownell has had really good recruiting classes the last 2 years. Those players will be sophomores and juniors next year. This was with the updated facilities. I think we will be as good if not better next year. We certainly should be way better offensively.

As for duke and UNC being down, we went 1-1 against them. Them being down is a wash in the W/L column.

The end of the year was disappointing, no doubt. It shouldn’t erase the entire body of work. The regular season was a success, conference and non-conference. On of our best in the last 30 years.

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Re: Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 20, 2021, 10:21 PM

So, again you insult people who don’t share your opinion. Based on that alone, it appears you are the preteen.
If you wish to engage in adult conversation, feel free to.

I have asked you before- yet did not get an answer .
How many years do you think it takes before you have a good representation of the leadership of the team? To me - 11 years is quite a good sample. So what is your number?
You make reference to this year. Sure, we went to tourney. We lost against a lower seed that was not exactly good. Also lost to a lower seed in the ACC tourney - again.
You wish to make the discussion about 1 year. I want to make it about 11.
11 years

4 wins - 10 losses in ACC Tourney - 28%
2-3 in true NCAA games. (Yes, there is another win, but I don’t believe winning a play-in game of 2 12 seeds should count the same as a regular NCAA tournament victory). You can add a win if you disagree. Then 3-3.
201 wins - 150 losses. (57%).
3 NCAA invites - 2 with his recruited players.
0 ACC tourney championships
0 ACC regular season championships
First or second team All - ACC players - 4
No known recruiting violations or scandals
Made NCAA this year.
Had good regular season 2020-21
Deepest team Clemson has had in years.
Lost against lower seed in ACC tourney.
Lost against lower seed in NCAA.
3 decent recruits committed for next year. But nothing special.
Relays on transfers and not development. Guard oriented play.

No inside game, no development of big men, struggle to recruit and retain.
Simply making the tourney is not my idea of success. Sure, it is a piece. But there is more.

Do I think BBis good coach, yes. Do I think after 11 years BB will turn a corner? Nope. If he could, why has he not already done it?
I think that at some point, if someone is not getting the job done, then try something and someone new.
What EXACTLY can you point to that will tell us that we will be competitive for the top 3 in the ACC, compete for ACC tourney, and make the dance 50+% of years and every few make it to sweet 16+?
Insulting tigernet posts do nothing for me. Bring facts.

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Re: Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 20, 2021, 10:37 PM

11 years at a normal school is more than enough. As i said you have to look at everything in context. I’ve said this a million times. When brownell got here we had the worst facilities and worst history of any team in the ACC. It’s a tough job. Every somewhat successful coach we have had in the last 25 years has left the minute a better job became available. Purnell left for F’ing DePaul(performed Terribly there). Since the facility upgrades we have recruited and performed at a significantly higher level. We should be as good if not better next year.

You even said you believe he is a good coach. I agree. His issue has been recruiting and he is finally recruiting well. Why not give him next season to prove it? I simply can’t understand the logic in firing him now. Especially since it is so hard to find a good coach. (See nc state)

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Re: Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 21, 2021, 8:51 AM

Wasn't there a kind of vague rumor about why Purnell needed to run off to Depaul? I can't remember what it was, but I think sex was involved somehow. (It usually is, no?)

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Re: Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 20, 2021, 10:53 PM [ in reply to Re: Clemson basketball perspective ]

The stats you have mentioned show that you obviously follow Clemson basketball very closely. I understand why you and other are frustrated about one and done in the ACC and NCAA tournament. So am I. I wish that Nick Honor had hit just two three pointers each in the last two games and perhaps we would not be having that discussion.

I realize that if one looks at the last 11 years, the statistics look bleak. But I always thought that a coach is hired (or fired) based on "what have you done for me lately?" Based on that Coach BB has taken his teams to the NCAA in the last four years with one sweet 16 finish (above expectations) and one Round 1 exit (below expectations). The record is 50% to the NCAA tournament in the last four years which is your expectation.

My question is: why do we want to fire him now when he seems to have turned the Program around and is meeting the expectation of most of the Clemson fans which is to make the Dance every two years?

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Re: Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 20, 2021, 10:27 PM

Fundamentally we are not very good. Free throw shooting, outside shooting, blocking out, following the shots. Best offensive player stands top of key and dishes all night. Needed points. CBB has not utilized assistant coaches - at least two of his staff think just like him. Not a good connection with players - they don’t play hard and don’t show he is a good x and o guy. Sad basketball.

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Re: Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 20, 2021, 11:04 PM

To be honest, we have improved fundamentally under Coach BB. Our free throw shooting has vastly improved; it was pretty good even against Rutgers. The best offensive player dishes out from the top of the key because that is one of his strengths; he can even drive to the hoop from there as he did several times against Rutgers. Overall, I thought that he had a good game and almost single-handedly carried us to a win. Defense and blocking out is usually a big strength about Coach BB teams, although I agree with you that it was not against Rutgers, and lack of blocking out at key moments probably cost us the game. He has excellent connection with his players; they play hard for him! What makes you say they don't? I realize that it was a gut-wrenching loss but we need to look at the entire season.

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Re: Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 20, 2021, 11:32 PM [ in reply to Re: Clemson basketball perspective ]

shirleyb said:

Fundamentally we are not very good. Free throw shooting, outside shooting, blocking out, following the shots. Best offensive player stands top of key and dishes all night. Needed points. CBB has not utilized assistant coaches - at least two of his staff think just like him. Not a good connection with players - they don’t play hard and don’t show he is a good x and o guy. Sad basketball.



Free throw shooting

2018 season: 2nd in the ACC
2019 season: 8th in the ACC (middle of the pack)
2020 season: 12th in the ACC(known rebuil year)
2021 season: 4th in the ACC

I wouldn’t say that’s bad.

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Re: Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 21, 2021, 10:12 AM

It’s not bad but given the kind of kids who play here it has to be better. Free points. We don’t get awesome players - we get the blue collars and lots of streaky good players who aren’t consistent in scoring. Thanks for exchange - no insult - just exchange of thoughts.

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I'm in my late 50's and have called for Brownell's removal


Mar 20, 2021, 11:01 PM

for 7-8 years.

I attended as many Clemson games as I possibly could from 1979 to Brownell's 3rd or 4th year, several ACC tournaments, dozens of NCAA tournaments, and three final fours. I know college basketball, and Brownell's teams have been the least entertaining and fun to watch. As for the past few years, my how the ACC has fallen. I have rarely watched Clemson for the past 7-8 years and many alums feel the same.

If Clemson can survive without basketball fans and interest, that is fine but not ideal. Are you certain your support of Brownell is not an idiotic knee-jerk reaction?

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Re: I'm in my late 50's and have called for Brownell's removal


Mar 20, 2021, 11:24 PM

SocMan2® said:

for 7-8 years.

I attended as many Clemson games as I possibly could from 1979 to Brownell's 3rd or 4th year, several ACC tournaments, dozens of NCAA tournaments, and three final fours. I know college basketball, and Brownell's teams have been the least entertaining and fun to watch. As for the past few years, my how the ACC has fallen. I have rarely watched Clemson for the past 7-8 years and many alums feel the same.

If Clemson can survive without basketball fans and interest, that is fine but not ideal. Are you certain your support of Brownell is not an idiotic knee-jerk reaction?



I don’t know, I have watched Clemson basketball my entire life. I am only 31. I’ve really enjoyed the last 4 years under brownell. My dad has told me about how entertaining the basketball games were in the late 70s/early 80s. I believe him. He wants brownell to go. As for my experience, this is some of the most entertaining basketball I’ve witnessed.

Also, my support for brownell is not a knee jerk reaction. I have been pretty vocal in my support for a while. He is on a short leash and we need to continue to improve. I think that we will.

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Re: I'm in my late 50's and have called for Brownell's removal


Mar 21, 2021, 12:10 AM

you’re 31??

lol - have at it sunshine.

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


Re: I'm in my late 50's and have called for Brownell's removal


Mar 21, 2021, 12:13 AM

Will do, chief.

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Re: I'm in my late 50's and have called for Brownell's removal


Mar 21, 2021, 12:14 AM

precisely

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


Re: I'm in my late 50's and have called for Brownell's removal


Mar 21, 2021, 12:14 AM [ in reply to Re: I'm in my late 50's and have called for Brownell's removal ]

More importantly Brownell has been the head coach virtually his entire adult life but he thinks he has the perspective to ridicule those of us that have been watching since Foster or earlier. Also no perspective on what pre-expansion ACC basketball used to be like.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re: I'm in my late 50's and have called for Brownell's removal


Mar 21, 2021, 12:38 AM

viztiz® said:

More importantly Brownell has been the head coach virtually his entire adult life but he thinks he has the perspective to ridicule those of us that have been watching since Foster or earlier. Also no perspective on what pre-expansion ACC basketball used to be like.



Ahhhh the good ole bill foster days. Did you walk uphill to and from school everyday as well? Those were the good ole days where we had an above .500 ACC record 2 out of 9 seasons. His last 4 seasons he had a 15-41 ACC conference record.

It’s also kind of funny that you are trying to compare the good ole days 50 years ago to today’s college landscape.

Brownell has performed better than any coach in your lifetime.

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Re: I'm in my late 50's and have called for Brownell's removal


Mar 21, 2021, 1:13 AM

Like I said, no perspective on what the pre-expansion ACC was like. It would be impossible to have a meaningful debate with you. You should listen to your father more.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re: I'm in my late 50's and have called for Brownell's removal


Mar 21, 2021, 11:09 AM

viztiz® said:

Like I said, no perspective on what the pre-expansion ACC was like. It would be impossible to have a meaningful debate with you. You should listen to your father more.



You’re right. There’s no sense in an exchange with a grumpy old man who has no perspective of the current college basketball landscape because he’s still stuck in the 70s. Good luck sir and I hope we get back to the glory days of bill foster to appease you.

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Re: I'm in my late 50's and have called for Brownell's removal


Mar 21, 2021, 11:25 AM

Except that’s not what I said. I said back through Bill Foster which is as far as my personal experience goes. I’ve written nothing remotely like what your implying. But lazy rhetoric and logical fallacies are common for ill educated millennials. Brownell has the lowest overall win percentage, lowest AP Top 25 win percentage, and lowest RPI Top 50 win percentage of everyone but Shyatt back through Foster. That hardly makes him the best of my lifetime. That he plays so many fewer AP Top 25 and RPI Top 50 per season illustrates the precipitous drop in quality of ACC basketball. That he wins less of those contests than anyone but Shyatt demonstrates where he actually stands amongst Clemson coaches. Now quick, make an ageist joke while I chase these hoodlums off my lawn.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Brownell has performed better than any coach in your lifetime.


Mar 21, 2021, 10:17 AM [ in reply to Re: I'm in my late 50's and have called for Brownell's removal ]

Is that why he ranks 5th out of the last 7 Clemson coaches in winning % ahead of only Tates Locke and Larry Shyatt?

1. Oliver Purnell 138-88 61.06%
2. Rick Barnes 74-48 60.06%
3. Bill Foster 156-106 59.54%
4. Cliff Ellis 175-127 57.95%
5. Brad Brownell 201-150 57.26%

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Re: Brownell has performed better than any coach in your lifetime.


Mar 21, 2021, 10:28 AM

Back through Foster he’s dead last in number of AP Top 25 and RPI Top 50 opponents played on average per season. And only Shyatt had a lower winning percentage against those categories.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re: Brownell has performed better than any coach in your lifetime.


Mar 21, 2021, 1:02 PM [ in reply to Brownell has performed better than any coach in your lifetime. ]

Tiger95 said:

Is that why he ranks 5th out of the last 7 Clemson coaches in winning % ahead of only Tates Locke and Larry Shyatt?

1. Oliver Purnell 138-88 61.06%
2. Rick Barnes 74-48 60.06%
3. Bill Foster 156-106 59.54%
4. Cliff Ellis 175-127 57.95%
5. Brad Brownell 201-150 57.26%



Well in the last 4 years since the facility upgrades, our winning percentage is 62%. I’m pretty sure that is the best we have had in 4 consecutive seasons of all time. It’s funny that everyone brings up brownell first 6 seasons but can’t admit that we have significantly improved.

Oliver Purnell - it’s not hard to rack up a good winning percentage when you play scrub teams in the non-conference. Remember the year we went 17-0 and didnt make the tournament? It was obvious he had peaked as well with his full court press strategy where he would get us to the tournament and then lose in the first round each year.

Rick Barnes: only had winning records in the ACC 2 out of 4 years. The minute a better team came knocking he was out.

Bill foster: had a pretty good start to his career at Clemson but was pretty bad his final 4 years. I’m this is different than brownell as we are starting to play our best basketball yet under brownell

Cliff Ellis: had a decent career at Clemson by Clemson’s standards. He flamed out and had a dismal last 4 years here. He only had a winning conference record 2 out of 10 years.

Brownell: he has us playing our best basketball since he’s been here in year in year 11. After the facility upgrades he has had his best recruiting classes and we haven’t peaked yet. But let’s fire him and hope to hit the jack pit with a new coach.

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Re: Brownell has performed better than any coach in your lifetime.


Mar 21, 2021, 1:18 PM

Lol - Purnell’s last 4 years were 69% (93-41) but let’s just go with the last 4 years are BEST OF ALL TIME since that soothes the crippling separation anxiety the thought of Brownell leaving must give you.


Edit to add:
Ellis won 67% of his games 87-90.
Foster won 65% from 78-81.

So you are way off base. If you actually did some homework you’d start to realize how much so.


Message was edited by: viztiz®


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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re: Brownell has performed better than any coach in your lifetime.


Mar 21, 2021, 1:49 PM

Sorry I misspoke. I meant in conference record, but that is still wrong. Purnell and brownell each had a 54% conference record in the 4 season stretch. That is the best mark of all time. And Purnell performed so well here he left to go to DePaul. That’s right, he left because DePaul was a better job than Clemson. Let that sink in.

And you mention cliff Ellis’ 4 year run. We beat more ranked teams in brad’s 4 year span than Ellis’

So basically what you are saying is that the last 4 years is right up there with any 4 years in Clemson history. We haven’t hit our peak either. We are still improving and you want him out. Wow.

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Re: Brownell has performed better than any coach in your lifetime.


Mar 21, 2021, 2:17 PM

You don’t know that we haven’t hit our peak. After 11 years you still clinging to hope despite no development of one of this year’s vaunted recruiting class and a sub-40 recruiting class next year.

Plus, not everything has to be binary. If you look carefully I’ve never once posted that we should fire Brownell. But, he only has 2 years left on his contract. We only avoided dealing with the contract last year because of Covid. The standard line across the coaching profession is that coaches have to have 4 years on their contract for recruiting. Personally I think it’s rubbish. But agents and AD have treated it like gospel. So it isn’t just if whether we fire him or not. Do we give him an extension? He almost certainly won’t accept one that doesn’t substantially increase his buyout - meaning we’re guaranteeing him multiple more seasons or flushing money down the drain if we fire him after next season. I’m sure after the coaching carousel gets moving there will be plenty of mid major programs who would love to get ahold of someone like Brownell. We can easily end up in a Tommy Bowden / Arkansas type situation.

While you seem pretty hopeful about next season. While we return a lot of minutes played, in a single player we’re losing our defensive and offensive statistical leader. For a team that was fairly anemic on offense that isn’t very promising.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re: Brownell has performed better than any coach in your lifetime.


Mar 21, 2021, 4:37 PM

So we agree then. Lol. There’s plenty to be frustrated about over the last 10 years but he deserves at least 1 more year.

I guess I just choose not to constantly ##### and moan about him all basketball season

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Simms just won the Skip Prosser award


Mar 21, 2021, 8:14 AM [ in reply to I'm in my late 50's and have called for Brownell's removal ]

wins are what everyone wants. But I am super proud of the young men Brownell brings to Clemson.

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super!


Mar 21, 2021, 12:07 AM

thanks!!

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


Re: super!


Mar 21, 2021, 12:08 AM



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try harder***


Mar 21, 2021, 2:09 PM



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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


Re: Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 21, 2021, 8:32 AM

Name a worse year performance wise the ACC has had since Brownell got here. And we still got bumped after the first game in both tournaments. Second, excuse makers for an 11-year coach are the ones holding the program back.

If Brownell is loved so much, give him an admin role. But don’t give him another year. Period. This isn’t recruiting. This isn’t facilities. This is coaching.

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Re: Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 21, 2021, 9:11 AM

I have concerns but consider this: Duke and Kentucky were NOT in the Tourney this year and UCLA and Mich St were in a play in game. 2 seed Ohio St and 3 seed Texas and UNC (very off year) lost in the first round.

What is a realistic expectation?

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Re: Clemson basketball perspective


Mar 21, 2021, 12:17 PM

Realistic? This is the heart of the problem for me. Our history is dreadful. No sugar coating it. That said, I was taught that probability has no memory. So to frame our coaching/program expectations around that is a path to mediocrity. Frankly, I want unrealistic expectations. I want a coach with a plan to reach those unrealistic expectations and an unwavering belief that they can be achieved. Sound like someone we know? Were 2 national titles and 6 straight conference titles realistic expectations?

So, to the matter at hand, can anyone out there, ANYONE, say coach Brownell truly delivering unrealistic results? In 11 years, we have no titles, no evidence that there is even belief that that is possible. Is mediocre the standard?

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I used to defend Brownell with references to historical


Mar 21, 2021, 11:10 AM

position, ACC records, pre-season league rankings, etc, especially against those spouting the Purnell comparisons and bashing him on recruiting earlier in his tenure.

Where I went south was the constant and maddening inconsistencies, late game or season folds, and all the rest that turned encouraging, winnable games and seasons into disappointments. I think the NIT loss to Oakland was the eye opening turn.

Clemson Grit? That wasn't Brownell. That was Gabe Devoe. NCAA tourney his first year? Demontez Stitt's special drive and leadership. When stellar players with heart emerge, we prosper and overperform. If anything, I feel like Brownell inhibits this type of development rather than encourages it.

I don't see consistent game prep and leadership from Brownell. What I do see, though, is a consistent pattern where we have our better seasons when Brownell's job is either in jeopardy or facing a contract extension year (this is one of those years). We do just enough to inspire hope for what's to come, a turn for the better, only to take a step back once the ink is dry.

I hurt for the many great players and personalities that have come to play at Clemson over this past decade, who by any normal standards of measurements for the success of a college basketball program have mostly disappointment to hang their hats on.

As an alum and fan, I have no choice but to support Clemson basketball and tune it in at all available opportunities. This does not have to extend to a coach, who is a paid employee. Being true to your school does not by automatic extension carry over to the hired help.

The wrap to this season is simply a microcosm of what this last decade has felt like. Promising, with talent, but somehow inexplicable absences of identity and cohesion at the worst times.

Whatever. It's Clemson basketball, right? Mired in mediocrity with glimmers of hope setting one up for even greater disappointment on the other side. Sounds a LOT like a football program in the middle of the state I know. Those poor people.

Go Tigers.

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