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Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?
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Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?

[3]
Sep 9, 2018, 10:09 AM

I know you can grab jersey between the numbers if you’re hat on hat. I know you can grab a little front and back if your hat is still ahead of defender’s shoulder pads. I know you can double team with one guy above waist and one guy on shoulders for a “hi-lo-lite” block.

I wanna honestly know where the line is when it comes to technique. School us, somebody.

GO TIGERS. BEAT GSU.

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GO TIGERS


Re: Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?

emoji_events [7]
Sep 9, 2018, 10:23 AM

Holding is bad technique , unless you don't get caught ... in which case it's pretty much the best technique .

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DB23


Re: Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 10:27 AM

TigerDug is spot on. EVERYONE does it to some level, we just really at not great at it tbh.

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What I saw on multiple snaps was the O-lineman's arm....

[3]
Sep 9, 2018, 12:39 PM

...wrapped over the shoulder pad of Ferrell with the O-lineman BEHIND Ferrell!

These O-linemen are HUGE, but not necessarily FAST, so just hooking over the shoulder pads from behind can create just another second of time for Mond.

This extra 1 second was the key to many of Mond's escapes and throwing a desparation pass that was somehow unblelievably caught by those receivers, which impressed the h3ll out of me.

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J. Marc Edwards
Cary, NC


I can hardly wait to see the still photos from the game...


Sep 9, 2018, 12:41 PM

...I'm confident we will get a shot with a clear view of this, and not just one, but probably more like three..

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J. Marc Edwards
Cary, NC


Found one!


Sep 9, 2018, 4:04 PM



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J. Marc Edwards
Cary, NC


And in another second that O-lineman would have Dex by the..


Sep 9, 2018, 4:16 PM

...jersey.



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J. Marc Edwards
Cary, NC


Probably a completion!!


Sep 9, 2018, 4:07 PM



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J. Marc Edwards
Cary, NC


Another Mond completion...


Sep 9, 2018, 4:14 PM



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J. Marc Edwards
Cary, NC


Perhaps another? A sleeveless jersey on Christian? I don't..


Sep 9, 2018, 4:12 PM

...think so.



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J. Marc Edwards
Cary, NC


And another! Perfect holding form for an O-linman...


Sep 9, 2018, 4:17 PM



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J. Marc Edwards
Cary, NC


Re: What I saw on multiple snaps was the O-lineman's arm....

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 12:48 PM

I agree with you about Clelin – their left tackle put on the most obvious display of uncalled holding, followed by their right guard against Dex.

I saw multiple instances of underarm hooking after Cle had the left tackle beat.

I saw their guard and center create a hi-lo double-team on Dex that was barely legal - very close to a penalty. Honestly, what else can they even do to stop a 350 pound bull, though?

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GO TIGERS


I think that after we slaughtered Jimbo's QB last year, that

[1]
Sep 10, 2018, 8:14 AM

he did 2 things. First, he told his oline coach to instruct his linemen to hold on every play until they called it. Second, I bet he hammered the refs before the game!!

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Re: I think that after we slaughtered Jimbo's QB last year, that


Sep 10, 2018, 10:32 AM

Probably true - a coaching move born of great trauma.



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GO TIGERS


You are wrong, and have bought into a common misconception,

[4]
Sep 9, 2018, 10:27 AM

O-linemen cannot, by rule, grab any part of the defender's jersey when blocking.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: You are wrong, and have bought into a common misconception,

[2]
Sep 9, 2018, 10:44 AM

I understand the letter of the law, but the fact is handfuls of numbers are grabbed on every single snap, and Oline guys are coached to engage Dline guys this way. Could refs call it all game long? Sure. Do they? Nope.

There’s a line where the fudging of technique become egregious enough to garner attention from the ref- I wanna know what cues an average ref sees to make him toss the laundry.

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GO TIGERS


Re: You are wrong, and have bought into a common misconception,

[2]
Sep 9, 2018, 10:54 AM

separation or hooking

If its tight and no fishhooks, they usually let it go

Saw a lot of hooks last night

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The rule is the rule, and it's clear. Refs don't have the

[4]
Sep 9, 2018, 11:05 AM

discretion to ignore rules, and choose when to enforce them or not. I completely understand where you are coming from, but where you are coming from is THE problem, that we can excuse certain rules being ignored or randomly enforced because that's just the way it is, as if it's unrealistic to expect "the letter of the law" to be enforced. It's not too much to ask; in fact, it's what we should expect. Refs have gradually, over time, shirked that responsibility over time, to the point that more and more people just don't expect them to do their job anymore. I say that's a croc, and is the reason we are having this discussion now. Holding has gotten waaaaaay out of hand, and the blame is 100% on officials who simply won't do their job, and to some degree, on fans, for having such poor understanding of the rules and letting refs get away with it. The great sport of football is dependent upon a clear set of rules consistentlt and fairly enforced. What we have now is a game that has been wrongly and unjustly reshaped by the failure to do that.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


If they didnt allow OL to lock up a little with their hands

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 11:34 AM

QBs wouldnt survive games these days. It's just never going to get called until the defender gets separation and the OL doesn't let go.

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Allowing this degree of holding has helped create the

[3]
Sep 9, 2018, 11:42 AM

style of offenses we see today. If the rule was enforced, offenses would adapt accordingly once again. Popular trends, created by an abject failure to enforce the rules, should not dictate that the rule needs to be changed. That is assbackwards thinking. The rule needs to be enforced, and the game adapt accordingly - and it would.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


EXACTLY! ??***

[2]
Sep 9, 2018, 12:33 PM



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They could also just reword the rule to reflect what is

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 12:42 PM

typically called on the field. It depends what style of football is preferable (likely whichever one they think more fans want to watch so they can make more $$$).

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That is a very dangerous, slippery slope.***


Sep 9, 2018, 2:23 PM



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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Same thing can be pointed out about our government too...

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 12:32 PM

The govt has so many laws & rules on the books yet they choose to selectively enforce them, a lot of times due to political alliances or agendas or because a person has $$ and can fight back so they let it go.

Same systemic problem up and down the line and sports is reflecting such shirking of duty and bias actually.

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Re: You are wrong, and have bought into a common misconception,

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 11:09 AM

Holding on after the defensive guy gets by you. Other than that, hang on.

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a&m was holding blatantly last night. the way to tell

[3]
Sep 9, 2018, 10:57 AM

is if you are watching on t.v. and you see the defensive player suddenly look like they've grown six inches when they're coming around the corner, it's because they've got an O lineman pulling them up by the pads in order to hold them back. This is pretty much the same way refs use to call holds, because they often can't see the offensive guys hands. And yet, last night, like many here, I was querying my screen: "isn't that holding? That's holding isn't it? J**** C****! Call a hold, you pathetic *****!"

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It’s like “traveling” in the NBA....

[2]
Sep 9, 2018, 11:11 AM

...almost non-existent.

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Re: It’s like “traveling” in the NBA....


Sep 9, 2018, 11:31 AM

https://www.tigernet.com/forum/message/Like-carrying-or-walking-in-basketball--its-ignored-99-24000192#24000192

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


great question!***


Sep 9, 2018, 11:17 AM



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Re: Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?


Sep 9, 2018, 11:28 AM

When the hands get outside the shoulders, arms get hooked, defenders get dragged down, that is holding. Should never be tolerated. Think of holding a receiver. If a DB impedes a WR's progress by grabbing or hooking so he can't make a play on the ball, it gets called every time. Same should be true when an OL impedes a DL's progress by grabbing, hooking, or outright tackling.

Use of hands is perfectly permissible as long as there's no wrapping or hooking.

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The definition of awesome!


Re: Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?


Sep 9, 2018, 11:35 AM

Use of hands is perfectly permissible as long as there's no wrapping or hooking.


Or grabbing/grasping. Hands must be kept open when facing the opponnent, or closed or cupped when facing away from the opponent.

"Holding. The hand(s) and arm(s) shall not be used to grasp, pull, hook,
clamp or encircle in any way that illegally impedes or illegally obstructs
an opponent."

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?


Sep 9, 2018, 11:45 AM

I'm talking about how the game is normally played and officiated. Gripping a defender without getting the hands too wide is never and will never be called. Hooking, wrapping up or dragging down should always be called and normally is.

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The definition of awesome!


Then they need to modify the rule if they are never going to

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 12:37 PM

Call grasping and grabbing as holding... simple solution... call it all the time consistently or change the rule. Not hard.

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Re: Then they need to modify the rule if they are never going to

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 2:29 PM

I’m totally in favor of changing written rules, as long as they’ll be enforced. Exchanging one set of unenforced rules for another set of unenforced rules would be the epitome of frivolous bureaucracy.

The spirit of my OP was really to get some education on the cues to refs that “holding” has become penalty worthy, although I completely recognize the philosophical contentions regarding tolerance of rule-breaking.

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I hear ya... you are right to ask***


Sep 9, 2018, 4:28 PM



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And the way it is normally played and officiated is wrong.

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 2:32 PM

The rule is there for a reason. I think they should enforce it rather than change it simply because people have decided they weren't going to obey it. I understnd where you are coming from, and I'm well aware what is normally allowed and what is not. I just think it's a shame that rule-breakers are allowed to dictate it.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


When you see the defender’s hands go straight up


Sep 9, 2018, 11:39 AM

And their head go backwards as the QB is escaping the pocket (almost every play)...that is holding...especially when you have 4 of the best in the biz

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I sat down for 10mins and found these 2 no calls

[4]
Sep 9, 2018, 11:40 AM

Wonder how many you could find if you re-watched the entire game

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You could find as many as you want

[2]
Sep 9, 2018, 11:49 AM

Tons of 'em

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The definition of awesome!


But can you find them on our guys?

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 12:51 PM

See, that is the real issue here. If we are doing it to the same degree they are and getting away with it, then play on. I did not see that, but my orange colored glasses may have skewed my vision.

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No!


Sep 9, 2018, 1:12 PM

When a DL beats one of our guys, he doesn't get tackled, hooked, horse collared, etc.

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The definition of awesome!


Exactly... hence why we need to do as they do if no calls

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 4:26 PM

Are going to be made for it

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Good finds

[2]
Sep 9, 2018, 12:04 PM

You didn’t even circle Bryant getting pushed in the back to the ground in the first one haha. That was a two-fer

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Yep... excellent work! Dabo should take this up too

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 12:41 PM

The refs need to be held accountable...

Message was edited by: hufferbilly®


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I think a lot of o-line coaches teach players players to grab...

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 11:42 AM

Around the armpit area and move d-lineman that way. It’s lower down around the numbers and refs either don’t look for it or just allow it.

That last aTm td Clelin is getting to Mond and you see the aTm lineman basically horse collar blocking him past Mond. UGGGGHHH.

College refs let a lot of stuff go.

~JKB

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Re: Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 11:58 AM

For the interior guys if they have cleared their numbers on one side or the other of the OL but can’t separate or go the direction they are trying to go, they are being held (Dexter was held all night long this way). For the ends they are usually coming with speed around an end and the tell is usually a handful of jersey around the shoulder or in back that changes their posture (a few times last night) but that doesn’t necessarily keep them from getting where they want to go. Sometimes the OL gives them a shove from the side or back and knocks them off their mark but that’s not illegal.

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Re: Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 12:20 PM

What about illegal hands to the face? Saw that a couple times last night without any yellow laundry flying.

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Re: Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?

emoji_events [6]
Sep 9, 2018, 12:24 PM

There once was a line for the Aggies
Who had a bad case of the grabbies
But the refs didn't mind
Or else they were blind
And failed to throw out any flaggies!

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Re: Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?

[2]
Sep 9, 2018, 12:41 PM

Atta boy!

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Here is what I do not understand...

[3]
Sep 9, 2018, 12:49 PM

If the other team is doing it and it is not being called, then why in the world would your team not also do it? Unleash the hounds! Let our O-line join in the fun!

Then, if the refs call you for holding, you get to make the point that they need to call it both ways.

For me, I always look for stuff like that and tell my players that we are gonna have to adjust to the refs and start using the same techniques our opponent is usin because apparently it is legal for this game. That way, I can force the issue if the refs are inconsistently calling the game.

THEN if they continue with the inconsistency, things escalate very fast and you cause a scene for all to see. You can’t be meek! You have to force accountability or you are doing your team a disservice. I blame Dabo and our O coaches for not taking this approach to rectify the situation or at least level the playing field for our O-line against their D.

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You bet!

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 1:37 PM

Robbie Caldwell should have been telling our guys, "Don't let 'em through no matter what you have to do. The refs aren't calling holding tonight."

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The definition of awesome!


Re: Here is what I do not understand...


Sep 9, 2018, 2:35 PM

Hadn’t thought about it like that - you’re saying it’s a coach’s obligation to “force” referee accountability by presenting an on-field call that’s flirting with the limits. This forces the refs to make a stand and declare their penalty threshold. I like this line of thinking.

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EXACTLY! When in Rome...***


Sep 9, 2018, 2:55 PM



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Re: Here is what I do not understand...


Sep 10, 2018, 8:12 AM

This type of play happens in all sports. Pitchers test the strike zone, soccer test the physicality the ref permits. When rules are left to interpretation players should always push the limits until it is called and then play accordingly.

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Re: Here is what I do not understand...


Sep 9, 2018, 4:05 PM

It would also behoove a coach to communicate this to players and take directed action BEFORE players decide to test these limits for themselves. It would preserve player reputation in the eyes of the coaches, fellow players, and potentially fans (if they understood that the onus to hold refs accountable is on the coaches, not on them...).

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Yep... Christian and Hyatt should bring this up to Dabo***


Sep 9, 2018, 4:21 PM



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Re: Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?

[1]
Sep 9, 2018, 2:37 PM

If your hands are inside the arm pits and you stay in front of the player, you won't ever get called. If you get hands outside or you lose direct position on d lineman, you will get called If ref sees it.

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Re: Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?


Sep 9, 2018, 3:57 PM

You really could call holding on every play. But last night in 1 on 1 pass protection, especially on the OTs and on the backside of plays, it was out in the open for everyone to see and never got called.

Good pass protection technique is all about balance, feet movement, and getting your hands and hat inside the numbers. Even if the DE gets up the field on you or pushes you back, as long as your hands are inside and you are locked up, you can force the DE out from making a play.

Last night over and over again, our guys were so much faster that their OL couldn't get their hands, feet, or head where it needed to be. Most lineman panic and start grabbing anywhere they can. When you have a arm on the back, and one on the front in pass protection, its holding. Many times out on 1 on 1 blocking blatant holding was on almost every play last night.

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Re: Can anybody comment intelligently on good Oline hand technique vs. holding?


Sep 10, 2018, 7:51 AM

Mickey Plyler raised a great point this morning on the radio – there are now two officials assigned to monitor the line of scrimmage and the backfield, but they are so concerned about protecting quarterbacks, that they now have less of an interest in calling holding penalties. Great point.

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Then change the rule... rules shouldn’t be arbitrary


Sep 10, 2018, 8:27 AM

Otherwise what is the point?

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Re: Then change the rule... rules shouldn’t be arbitrary


Sep 10, 2018, 10:06 AM

Amen.

NCAA - fix your rules or string up bad officials.

Tigers - just win, baby.

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GO TIGERS


There was a LOT of holding on Saturday night but they let


Sep 10, 2018, 10:33 AM

them play

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Not by Clemson... we must do likewise!***


Sep 10, 2018, 10:40 AM



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