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Legend [16900]
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are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 11:28 AM
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There are 7 coaches in the ACC who have tenures of 10 years or more. Based on current salary here's how much those coaches are paid per NCAA victory
Brad Brownell - 11 Seasons - 3 wins - $8,891,666/win
Jim Larranaga - 10 Seasons - 4 wins - $6,125,000/win
Mike Brey - 21 Seasons - 13 wins - $4,078,840/win
Leonard Hamilton - 19 Seasons - 11 Wins - $3,886,363/win
Tony Bennett - 12 Seasons - 13 Wins - $3,576,923/win
Mike Kryzewski - 41 Seasons - 97 wins - $2,977,454/win
Jim Boeheim - 45 Seasons - 67 wins - $1,914,179/win
Worth noting that not only do we pay Brownell nearly 25% more per win than the next highest paid coach he is also last in the number of wins amongst the coaches with tenures of 10 or more years. Using current salary actually benefits Brownell as the per win cost of Brey, Boeheim, Kryzewski, and Hamilton would plummet if you actually computed their actual career earnings. It makes the cost appear higher than actuality but the differential between his peers is lower than it would actually be. If someone has the time to research the actual compensation for each of these coaches, go for it. Larranaga and Brownell have similar compensation history. Bennett started at about 30% more per year than Brownell but he currently makes more than 50% more. So in every case, this math is judicious in Brownell's favor.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 11:42 AM
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This argument is beyond ridiculous. Completely absurd and stupid. Are you the on behind firing Dino Guadio? This type of thinking is what got Wake relugated to bottom-tier status.
So what was OP's salary per NCAA win?
You need to look at the overall program. What is Duke's full coaching staff salary compared to Clemson and compare that to the BB budget. What about performance incentives as I assume that this is base pay vs wins. Not only that, are you factoring in inflation and pass salary sums into wins or are you just taking current salary and spreading it across X years of wins.
Really?
Plus but Jimmy: and Brey are likely on their way out soon, and BB finished ahead of all on that list save for Hamilton and Bennett this year so....
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All-In [27178]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 12:05 PM
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Why is it absurd and ridiculous? While I disagree with the OP from time to time, I think he has a valid argument in this case.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 12:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: are we paying Brad enough? ] |
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It’s not any of the things you assert. When a coach is extended into 10 years or beyond he is being compensated for his accomplishments and the anticipation that those will continue and possibly improve. You can also measure by NCAA appearances or ACC tournament wins. He’s last in all those too. The compensation matters because we’re told that Clemson doesn’t invest in basketball and the Brownell works below market value. It is obviously not true.
I stated quite clearly that I was using present salary and that it favors Brownell. These were pulled from the total compensation column of the latest USA Today list of coaching salaries. Finding reliable, year by year, salary information would at a minimum be extremely onerous if even possible. I can assure that all of these coaches salary increases have surpassed inflation. That’s an actually ridiculous assertion from someone who obviously doesn’t work with money or numbers. If you feel differently please put in the work to prove me wrong.
I fail to see what relevance that certain coaches are approaching retirement has to do with anything.
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 1:16 PM
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How does the data stack up for the last four years? I thought that in coaching the main question is "what have you done for me lately?"
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 5:52 PM
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So, when looking at data, should we cherry pick numbers that benefit? Or look at the entire body of work?
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CU Guru [1237]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 30, 2021, 9:22 AM
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Cherry picking would be if you look at his best four years. Picking the last four years is not cherry picking - this happens in every job evaluation - sports or otherwise!
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Legend [16427]
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So why not just use NCAA wins/season?
Apr 29, 2021, 1:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: are we paying Brad enough? ] |
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Takes a lot less math, and is a cleaner measuring stick. The $/win stat is too dependent on the denominator.
If Brad took a 50% pay cut, would that make him twice as good a coach?
Message was edited by: dsgriff®
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Legend [16900]
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Re: So why not just use NCAA wins/season?
Apr 29, 2021, 1:59 PM
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I did because certain parties insist that Brownell works significantly below market value and that reflects Clemson lack of commitment to basketball. I think long tenured coaches are generally judged by post season success and this demonstrates Clemson has been abundantly patient and compensated him extraordinarily well for his accomplishments to date.
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Legend [16427]
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So I would use NCAA wins/season and salary in parentheses
Apr 29, 2021, 2:15 PM
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I think it would only strengthen your argument. But I guess we just look at things differently. By the $/NCAA win stat, what would you say is an acceptable level? Just one more season and a win or two might get BB there.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: So I would use NCAA wins/season and salary in parentheses
Apr 29, 2021, 2:27 PM
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I’m exactly extracting it from a spreadsheet I’m working on. My working hypothesis is we’re getting one of the worst ROI of any P5 program. While there is certainly flaws in the the manner this data is presented the fact is that amongst these “tenured” coaches he is last in ACC tourney wins, NCAA appearances, and NCAA wins. As for conference wins I think he’s only ahead of Larranaga on this list. Basically Brownell and Larranga have become this buffer between the premier programs and programs that expect more and have made coaching changes. They’re tenured but haven’t accomplished much of anything.
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Oculus Spirit [76734]
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I think you should send this...
Apr 29, 2021, 7:03 PM
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Hypothesis and data to DRad. Seriously. If they aren’t looking at it from a business standpoint using simple math/statistics, then we’ll never get to the top of the ACC.
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110%er [5465]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 1:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: are we paying Brad enough? ] |
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I think this a fair way to look at this. There are other ways to look at it to. Calling something absurd is denying thatdifferent people have different viewpoints. All viewpoints should be considered.
The bottom line is if we paid CBB more, would he recruit and win more?
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110%er [6825]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 1:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: are we paying Brad enough? ] |
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I am calling thus argument ridiculous, absurd and stupid for: GIGO Garbage in, garbage out.
One - Show your math. Show the assessment for each year's salary including any performance bonuses across the NCAA wins. Take inflation into account for those long-termers. I am willing to bet that both K and Boeheim are not as cheap as they look. Keep in mind those legacy-type coaches often normally start taking smaller cuts later into their career (kinda giving back as well as justifying higher pay/responsibilities to assistants). Finally covid pay-quirks may skew things a bit more here.
Number 2: Bring in the data for total program spending. As mentioned by a lot of previous thread/topics -Brad's base salary is higher and is a higher % of total program spending. Coming off a Sweet Sixteen trip, we were spending 6.4 Million (just before brad extension) - it has since upped to 8.5million 9but hey, everyone has been in an arms race of late). Brad makes a base salary on his 6 year deal of 2.5 million. That is mid-level in the ACC. Thus about 5.5 mill go to everything else. Meanwhile Coach K makes just under 10 mill (7M base), but Duke spends 22 mill on the basketball program. Thus they have literally DOUBLE the budget for all things NOT head coach. JimBoeheim also has a low base (2.8M or so) but spends 15 Million on the program. Thus again, twice our program budget. Both Florida State and Alabama spend more than 15 mill on BASKETBALL. So while the "coach" might be cheap, the program isn't.
Basketball isn't just "one coach" but rather a whole program investment.
Number 3: Bring in results vs historical data for a program. Suddenly both Jim L, Hamilton, and Brownell will start looking a lot better. This normalizes the data.
I am not calling it ridiculous for having a different viewpoint but rather using BAD MATH. Using bad match, bad methodologies and then making assertions from that data, is ridiculous, absurd and a show of stupidity. In GOD I trust, all other bring Data.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 1:57 PM
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Yes - I’ll spend hours compiling information to try and sway the T-Net Brownell mafia. This isn’t for you. I could prove definitively that Brownell is the devil and you’d stand beside him at this point. This information is for those on the fence that might be swayed that ONLY paying Brad $2.5 million a year indicates a lack of investment in our basketball program. I’m countering the GIGO you and your cohort have been spewing on here for years. Don’t like the math? Do your own. Don’t demand someone else do it. Explaining how else the math might have been done is cheap rhetoric. Do it, and prove me wrong.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 2:07 PM
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I don't care if you compile it or not - my issue is that if you start swings bad data around as "justification" for a given viewpoint expect the arguments legs to be cut out.
You did NOT mention that Brad's previous salary (pre-extention) was 1.8M which ranked him 10th in the ACC while the program was 14 out of 15... post Sweet Sixteen season.
Next, I do the math. I did. A LOT of other programs are out spending us $1.50 per every dollar even when accounting for the HC base pay.
Explain how math is done is RHETORIC - it is the EXACT OPPOSITE.
And I can prove you wrong easily. Because your number don't even add up. I was giving you a chance to show your numbers and double check.
"]Based on current salary here's how much those coaches are paid per NCAA victory... Brad Brownell - 11 Seasons - 3 wins - $8,891,666/win
Brads current base salary is 15 million over 6 years. Thus 2.5 million per year.
15m divided by 3 wins = 5 million per NCAA tournament win.
Wanna step behind the
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Legend [16900]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 2:12 PM
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If you were a fraction as smart as you thin you are you might be dangerous. He’s coaches 11 season. (2.5 x 11)/3. HTH. I explained exactly how I did it in the OP. So don’t act like it was deceptive. And I even addressed the variables but they don’t work in his favor.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 2:21 PM
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EXACTLY
But he has NOT made 2.5 for the entire time of his contract. In fact, the 2.5 is only 50% into a 6 year deal.
He used to make 1.8 mil as his base, (or that was his 2016 pay). You can't apply 2.5M across 11 years. BAD MATH! Thus really, he starts looking good if you go by his previous wins (3) at his then accurate pay (1.8m) making it 4.2M per win, on par with Brey.
Your approach/method is horrifically flawed because you are taking current year and applying it backward.
I am smart enough to know to get my education, wasn't smart enough to know when to stop....
My next question, how about looking at NC State and Wake while you are at it for the past 11 or so years.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 2:40 PM
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I’m sorry this is too much for you. I acknowledged every bit of this up front. It inflates everyone’s per game price. But it actually reduces the differential. Doing what you want would bring the price per win down but would actually widen the gap with everyone but Larranaga. I’m doing it this way because reliable, year by year salary information for each of these 7 coaches is not information that is readily available with a simple Google search. The 20-21 salary is easily and available and if applied retroactively only benefits Brownell relative to his peers. I did look up Larranaga and Bennett starting salaries to make sure there wouldn’t be a huge disparity that would effect the interpretation.
Applying your logic re: Brey I would have to go back to his starting salary - which I haven’t found. But for the 2011-12 season he only made $574,000. Applying actual salaries is not going to make Brownell look better.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 3:06 PM
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But again BAD MATH.
When accounting across eras and money you need to take consideration inflation, program costs, average salary rankings, and the arms race in college funding etc. So if you are unwilling to do the legwork, fine, but don't claim it "benefits" Brad because you think it does. Salaries and base pay are all function in both expectation as well as past performance over expectation.
If your argument is failing to adjust for this, the it is ridiculous. Both money and investment over time move and taking a snapshot and then applying it over time is a horrifically bad approach
how about we take gas prices
OMG gas prices are all over the place... but they are also completely steady.You can't just take a point in time and apply it backwards.
FYI, Larry Shyatt made $200K base, and up to 600K if he would have won it all. Using this rational is really bad.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 3:39 PM
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Brey made half of what Brownell made in 2011-12. I don’t need an inflation calculator. Seriously, it’s the same year. You’re now demanding a level of information that is simply unavailable to the lay person. The numbers mean exactly what they mean - nothing more, nothing less. But the standard was applied equitably and the methodology was explained. If you think it means nothing then so be it.
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CU Medallion [56736]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 7:01 PM
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My hope is that nothing that anyone's life will ever depend on will be planned, analyzed, designed, manufactured, or really have anything to do at all with FutureDoc. Scary stupid indeed.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
May 3, 2021, 9:39 AM
[ in reply to Re: are we paying Brad enough? ] |
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Man, is your argument that obtuse that you don't know how private schools report their slaray.
Brey's BASE from the school is low - BUT he basically gets a HUGE cut from Play-by-PLay sports, basically 1/2 or more from PbyP. So imagine if Clemson's media department gave BB doubled his base pay and that is Brey's cut. You can't go 1:1 with ND accounting.
Swimmer really, you are just joining in with someone who can't bother to do the legwork for their own argument.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
May 3, 2021, 9:48 AM
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Why don't you tell me again how Brownell is your favorite because he never gets blown by twenty the season he lost three consecutive by +70. Or maybe be like Judge Keller and insist it has been years since Brownell had a losing record during the season literally one season after he had a losing record in February and and finished 1 over .500. You guys get dumber and more desperate by the minute. The salaries are taken, as cited, from USA Today's index. I don't make up the numbers but they put one there for total school compensation - even for the private schools. Send them an angry if you think they're lying. But I actually did some legwork. You're the one just making up "oh he makes at least twice that because I say so." Where's your works cited? Perhaps if Brownell's didn't have the personality of wet paint his outside compensation would be better too.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
May 3, 2021, 10:24 AM
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Only a 20 point beatdown in three consecutive games. Phew, I remember when the ACC schedule was a 20 point beatdown for 14ish games.
I mean, your argument is basically cootish since you are applying current and future salary BACKWARDS 8 years or so. Completely ignoring how public/private salaries are structured, bonuses, etc.
Work cited - humm, lets look at Cuse's own comparison from 2018 since that actually has a better tally since they are pulling both the USAToday stuff and then digging deeper.
https://www.syracuse.com/acc/2018/03/highest_paid_acc_college_basketball_coaches_2018.html
ND salary from the same time - this year PbP compensation was only 700K as it varies based on a few factors
https://www.onefootdown.com/2020/5/20/21264873/notre-dame-salaries-mike-brey-brian-kelly-muffet-mcgraw-jack-swarbrick-2018-2019-compensation-irs
Again, you didn't do the legwork, do not understand how base vs total compensation works. You applied a current/future salary backwards, you did not take in both the pricewar/inflation and you don't take into consideration when a deal was penned. How ignorant can you make your argument.
Brad basically took the "US Womens Soccer" type of deal whereby his base pay is higher but his incentives are a bit less as well as the medial and third-party deals is less as well (DRAD is compensating here too).
And also, you completely miss out that I have been going out of my way to avoid an ad hominem blanket statement and always trying to not apply the same rubbish label of your argument to you as a person but I think that is often lost you your reading of the posts.
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 5:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: are we paying Brad enough? ] |
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Picking programs is different than picking coaches with 10+ years. Adding other teams that did not fit the criteria would change the perspective of long term coaches.
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Commissioner [905]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 3:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: are we paying Brad enough? ] |
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What are all the other programs spending that money on? Asst coaches? Recruiting expenses? Bag men? Suits for the head coach? Seriously what are they doing that we are not, or what are they doing more of?
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110%er [9667]
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Nice work! Always follow the science, right?***
1
Apr 29, 2021, 12:08 PM
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Orange Blooded [3459]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 12:26 PM
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For doing what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Legend [16226]
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Get real. Frank Howard, moon landings, chicks sports,
Apr 29, 2021, 12:46 PM
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the state of North Carolina...
You know we're destined for mediocrity due to the terrible century of neglect we heaped on poor Brad and the misfortune of being out of place and time with this program here. You should be happy with 3 NCAA wins these past 11 years and appreciate that we are in fact excelling beyond measure all things considered. Or something like that.
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All-In [25888]
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Re: Get real. Frank Howard, moon landings, chicks sports,
Apr 29, 2021, 1:02 PM
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Continuing to beat the dead horse. The AD and Pres. are the only two that will decide Brad's fate. No one else. The board, of course, will have to approve it.
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Legend [16226]
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Oh no doubt Brad will be coaching next season, and if
Apr 29, 2021, 1:40 PM
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history serves us right we should see fairly decent results. My only hope this time around is that we don't up the buyout or add any additional guaranteed money to his deal. It doesn't appear any competitors have driven the price up so that's good for us.
Go Tigers.
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Legend [16427]
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LOL Frank Martin says thanks for the ridiculous argument
Apr 29, 2021, 1:11 PM
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He may be able to get several more years out of that fluky Final Four run with this
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 1:33 PM
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Did you know that Leonard Hamilton only had 3 NCAA tourney wins In his first 14 seasons? Good thing FSU kept him around, right?
This is what you don’t understand. If brownell was still performing as he was in his first 5-6 years, I don’t think anybody would be arguing that we should keep him. He still has a short leash, but his recent performance earns him another year.
The fact of the matter is there has been huge improvement over the last 4 years. You can agree with that right? I put much more stock in recent performance rather than the how brownell performed in year 4. Brownell’s best 2 recruiting classes since he arrived haven't even played a season as upperclassmen. Things are still looking up as a program despite our poor finish last season. We are a tourney team again next year IMO.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 1:51 PM
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No, I don’t have to agree with that. He made it to the Sweet 16. Then had one decent recruiting class. He lost the 2nd best player in that class after one season. The top ranked player saw little development averaging 10 minutes and less than 4 points a game. The 2021 class is ranked 56th. So much for that recruiting momentum. After 12 seasons and more than $20 million we’re far more likely to have a rebuilding like Purnell inherited from Shyatt next season than what Brownell inherited from Purnell.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 2:05 PM
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No, I don’t have to agree with that. He made it to the Sweet 16. Then had one decent recruiting class. He lost the 2nd best player in that class after one season. The top ranked player saw little development averaging 10 minutes and less than 4 points a game. The 2021 class is ranked 56th. So much for that recruiting momentum. After 12 seasons and more than $20 million we’re far more likely to have a rebuilding like Purnell inherited from Shyatt next season than what Brownell inherited from Purnell.
My goodness, that’s not why I said.
This was my statement. Do you agree with this or not?
“The fact of the matter is there has been huge improvement over the last 4 years. You can agree with that right?”
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Legend [16900]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 2:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: are we paying Brad enough? ] |
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The Leonard Hamilton argument sounds good until you realize he took over a program that had 4 consecutive losing seasons and steadily built a program.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 2:47 PM
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Ok that makes sense. So if you are taking over a bad team, then it’s ok to give the coach 13 years for a rebuild. 10-4
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Legend [16900]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 2:54 PM
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Except you probably know that is not true. He made the first of 4 straight NCAAs in year 7. Made the Sweet 16 in Year 9. Since he has been to three more Sweet 16s and an Elite 8.
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110%er [5471]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 1:46 PM
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Interesting perspective of applying quantitative methods to BB. Certainly is one way to look at the program. As with all qualitative and quantitative methods, I’m sure someone can produce a study that reflects favorably on BB. The debate is moot anyway. No way Clemson would do anything with BB or ML while we are still under the COVID shadow.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 2:44 PM
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Wow, when looking at the last 4 years we are getting a steak with brownell.
Coach K - 6,466,667 per ncaa win
Brownell - 4,400,000 per ncaa win.
This means we are getting a hell of a deal per your logic right?
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Legend [16900]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10763
Joined: 1/25/07
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 3:23 PM
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If you think Coach K makes what he makes strictly based on the last 4 years then go ahead and plant your flag on that hill.
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Orange Blooded [4035]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3527
Joined: 8/19/03
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 6:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: are we paying Brad enough? ] |
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So, cherry picking data is a good thing?
If I birdie the first hole - does that make me the best golfer ever? No, I have to play the entire round.
Anytime you add a wonderful 2 win run - it will improve your stats. BB doing so on a regular basis (every 2-3 years), then, the negative noise goes away.
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Orange Blooded [4035]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3527
Joined: 8/19/03
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 5:49 PM
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One of BB “wins” is a play in game and should not count. The other 2 should.
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Legend [16900]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10763
Joined: 1/25/07
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 6:50 PM
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100% agree but didn’t even want to get into it when the numbers are so lopsided even counting that win.
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All-TigerNet [10483]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7756
Joined: 12/5/15
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Re: are we paying Brad enough?
Apr 29, 2021, 7:28 PM
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No. I heard someone was talking to a guy in Anderson and Coach BB has agreed to send 2/3 of his pay to Gumby.
Gumby wants to buy an island in the Bahamas....so Coach’s pay needs to go waaaaaaaay up.
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110%er [5701]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7026
Joined: 8/3/05
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attention? yes, Brad gets a lot of attention after each loss
Apr 29, 2021, 6:24 PM
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at least on TigerNet he does
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All-TigerNet [11428]
TigerPulse: 85%
Posts: 13601
Joined: 10/27/04
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Legend [16900]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10763
Joined: 1/25/07
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Re: attention? yes, Brad gets a lot of attention after each loss
Apr 29, 2021, 6:52 PM
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Oof. I remember it was only a few weeks ago next year was gonna be best team ever part deux according to some.
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