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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Posted this in June 2019, still true now. Firing Leggett was
Mar 15, 2021, 11:46 AM
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a monumentally bad decision. And Clemson baseball could very well pay the price for this for a long time, just like I said when he was on the hot seat.
Why bring it up again now? Acknowledging a mistake is the first step to avoiding the same stupid behavior in the future. Otherwise we end up like Tennessee football.
https://www.tigernet.com/forum/thread/My-take-on-the-baseball-situation-1906506
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All-In [25872]
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Re: Posted this in June 2019, still true now. Firing Leggett was
Mar 15, 2021, 11:53 AM
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Everyone has the right to an opinion but I believe a change was needed. Monte still may be the man but that remains to be seen until the end of the season as this team gets more experience.
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All-In [40090]
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That was really long. When I get a second I’ll have one of my assistants
Mar 15, 2021, 12:04 PM
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Read it to me while I rub the others’ shoulders and lower back.
Signed,
Andrew Cuomo
Message was edited by: lovingit®
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CU Medallion [64517]
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Uhhh...no it wasn't !!!
Mar 15, 2021, 12:07 PM
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It was time for a change and everyone thought ML was a great hire. He just hasn't been able to advance the program.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: Uhhh...not it wasn't !!!
Mar 15, 2021, 12:20 PM
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It was time for a change Yeah.... that's what you thought.
everyone thought ML was a great hire. Oh hmm. So its almost like making a coaching change is a huge risk because even hot coaches can be a letdown. I wonder why nobody ever mentioned that risk.
He just hasn't been able to advance the program. Um... yeah. So, you were wrong. That's the point.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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So what's your point...
Mar 15, 2021, 12:28 PM
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other than confirming that it's easy to second guess based purely on hindsight.
The fact that ML hasn't advanced the program certainly doesn't mean JL should have been retained.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: So what's your point...
Mar 15, 2021, 12:32 PM
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It's not hindsight if you said the same thing the entire time for 10 years.
I said the entire time that the odds of it hurting our program were higher than helping it.
We have the results now.
If we hurt our program by firing Leggett, then that means he should have been retained.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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Here are the results:
Mar 15, 2021, 12:52 PM
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Leggett's last five years and Lee's last four. Leggett's winning percentage: Overall 60%, ACC 55%. Lee's winning percentage: Overall 67%, ACC 58% (which will likely decrease after this season).
I think it's entirely fair to say that Leggett wasn't getting it done any longer.
While Lee has more tournament appearances over that same span (Lee's 2020 team would have likely been a tournament team too), and a little better winning percentage, he has pretty much held serve but hasn't really advanced the program.
That still doesn't mean that firing Leggett was a mistake.
Leggett 2011: 43-20, 17-13, T* 2012: 35-28, 16-14, 2013: 40-22, 18-12, 2014: 36-25, 15-14, T* 2015: 32-29, 16-13
Lee 2016: 44-20, 16-14, T* 2017: 42-21, 17-13, T* 2018: 47-16, 22-8, T* 2019: 35-26, 15-15, 2020 season incomplete
Credit to NCTiger75 for the stats
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Here are the results:
Mar 15, 2021, 1:41 PM
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I still don't understand how people say Monte hasn't advanced the program.
Leggett was barely making regionals in his last couple seasons and the year before that he got bounced by Liberty in the 3rd game.
Monte hosted regionals in his first 3 years. The only regional he didn't host was in a season where he lost his Friday night starter (Strider) before the season ever started to Tommy John and didn't have the pitching depth to compete at a higher level.
Then last season he had the best combo of experience and talent on the mound in maybe the last 10 years at Clemson and the season got cancelled. His best 3 pitchers then left for professional baseball to get to the situation he is in now with all of the youth on the mound and in the field.
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CU Medallion [56688]
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Re: So what's your point...
Mar 15, 2021, 1:24 PM
[ in reply to Re: So what's your point... ] |
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It means we probably shouldn’t have hired a coot coach to replace Jack.
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Uhhh...not it wasn't !!!
Mar 15, 2021, 1:49 PM
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Your comments about recruiting are ridiculous.
In any season with more than 5 rounds of the MLB draft we likely wouldn't have Grice, Olenchuk, and maybe a true freshman bat or two on the roster because they are all guys who would have been taken in the top 10 round of the draft out of his school.
Who cares where the kids are from if they are good.
The problem with these players however is that they would have gone to the minor leagues and developed for several years before reaching their full potential. They are now working out the kinks in live game action for our Tigers and struggling because the veterans on other teams have already worked out their kinks.
It's easy to say we should have veterans of our own to replace them with, but Hackenberg and Hall are two of those options to replace young guys and they haven't been on the field due to injury.
Your comment about CofC level is ridiculous also because Monte had more out of state players at CofC than he does at Clemson. At CofC he had to go out of state and to JUCOs because the best players in state want to go to the bigger schools.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Uhhh...not it wasn't !!!
Mar 15, 2021, 2:59 PM
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Uhhh...not it wasn't !!!
Mar 16, 2021, 10:53 AM
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I don't know if they will start winning some games this year or not, but the idea that he hasn't won since being at Clemson is nonsense.
I would love for Clemson to get back to going to Supers or the World Series every couple of years.
We are not at that level at the moment.
At the same time, a trainwreck of a season so far does not mean the program is a trainwreck for the past several years as some on here would like for people to believe.
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110%er [5072]
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Re: Posted this in June 2019, still true now. Firing Leggett was
Mar 15, 2021, 12:25 PM
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I thought firing Leggett was a mistake, but not because of the Lee hire not working out. I just thought Leggett had been successful enough over his career, and was respected by his peers to the point of where we should have made every effort to give him the chance to make it work, or at least make a deal with him to give him a little more time to turn it around, and retire if he wasn't able to.
I don't think the performance of Lee has anything to do with whether or not getting rid of Leggett was the right move though. It doesn't mean it was a bad move to get rid of a coach just because the next coach doesn't work out. For instance, if Beamer does horribly at South Carolina then I don't think that would mean it was a mistake for South Carolina to fire Muschamp. It would just mean they made two bad coaching hires in a row.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I thought it was a mistake regardless of who we hired.
Mar 15, 2021, 12:30 PM
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I didn't start thinking it was a mistake in 2019. I was just saying that the results have confirmed it was a mistake.
If Monte Lee had won a natty (or even gone to the CWS a couple times) then it would be hard to argue that firing Leggett was a mistake. But the odds of that were always extremely low.
We agree about the reasons for thinking it was a mistake... but I would have changed my mind had the facts proven me wrong.
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CU Guru [1697]
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If you thought it was a mistake regardless of who we hired,
Mar 15, 2021, 12:57 PM
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then you should also think that it was still a mistake even if we had made a couple of trips to Omaha and/or had won a natty by now also. IF your premise is ENTIRELY based on giving JackLegg whatever amount of time that you deem necessary to make a difference in the program and it wasn't given to him, then that premise should hold true regardless of the success or failure of the subsequent coach to infinity...
But if ML's or any future coach's success changes your premise when success is achieved, then your premise is mightily influenced by the subsequent coach's success and is really predicated on the subsequent coach being the coach that elevates the program above JackLegg's level of success...
ML appeared to be a good hire at the time, just as Tommy Bowden was thought to be a good hire at the time. So when the trips to Omaha happen and a natty is won, you should still stand on that it was mistake to fire JackLegg...
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All-In [43989]
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Fair enough.
Mar 15, 2021, 12:29 PM
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What would you need to see in order to want to fire Monte? Is there a certain number of years you would want to wait, or a certain threshold of disappointing seasons you would want to see before feeling that the time is right?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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If we have a worse season than all of Jack's 22 seasons.
Mar 15, 2021, 12:33 PM
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Hopefully that doesn't happen this year.
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CU Medallion [56688]
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* Covid***
Mar 15, 2021, 1:26 PM
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Associate AD [800]
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Hiring Monte Lee was the only mistake made..***
Mar 15, 2021, 12:36 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Nope. He was the best hire at the time. That's the point.
Mar 15, 2021, 12:39 PM
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It was an unnecessary risk. We were an elite program when he was fired.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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I would be interested in hearing your definition of "elite".***
Mar 15, 2021, 12:56 PM
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Legend [16900]
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Re: I would be interested in hearing your definition of "elite".***
Mar 15, 2021, 5:37 PM
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Does 5th most NCAA tournament appearances all-time and 11th most CWS appearances all-time not count as elite?
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CU Medallion [64517]
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At one time, Clemson had an elite baseball program.
Mar 15, 2021, 7:41 PM
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At the time Lee replaced Jack Leggett, Clemson was no longer one of the nations elite programs.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: At one time, Clemson had an elite baseball program.
Mar 15, 2021, 8:00 PM
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I’m sure you’re a real college baseball super fan.
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All-Pro [682]
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Re: Nope. He was the best hire at the time. NOT!
Mar 15, 2021, 1:02 PM
[ in reply to Nope. He was the best hire at the time. That's the point. ] |
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It was time for Legget to go. Clemson wasn't progressing and was losing out to the coots through poor coaching and recruiting mistakes. Monte was not a good hire and hasn't proven to be one. His teams are mistake prone with poor fundamentals. With the cluster in Columbia for a few years we should have been way ahead of them in baseball - lost opportunity.
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Hall of Famer [24770]
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I feel like you’re not really remembering the last few Leggett seasons very well
Mar 15, 2021, 1:32 PM
[ in reply to Nope. He was the best hire at the time. That's the point. ] |
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2012: 35-28, loss to SC in regional 2013: 40-22, lost to Liberty twice in regionals 2014: 36-25 0-2 in regional including 18-1 loss to Oregon 2015: 32-29, 0-2 in regional. Barely above .500
elite ?
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All-In [30764]
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Would matter more if you posted on may 29th 2016***
Mar 15, 2021, 12:59 PM
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Orange Blooded [3371]
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Re: Would matter more if you posted on may 29th 2016***
Mar 15, 2021, 1:37 PM
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If Jack Legget was such a great coach at the end of his career, why did he not get hired at another Power 5 program?
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Would matter more if you posted on may 29th 2016***
Mar 15, 2021, 1:45 PM
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By the same token, what says he wanted to coach anywhere else. I’m sure there are numerous P5 schools that would love to have someone of his caliber. But I doubt he was looking to just pick up and take over the first available slot. He’s coaching Team USA U18 quite successfully.
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All-In [48055]
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Re: Would matter more if you posted on may 29th 2016***
Mar 15, 2021, 2:40 PM
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Thanks.
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All-In [48055]
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Re: Would matter more if you posted on may 29th 2016***
Mar 15, 2021, 2:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: Would matter more if you posted on may 29th 2016*** ] |
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Come on man, gots to do better than that.
He'd spent over 33 years in the foothills of NC/SC. He coached at Clemson for 24 yrs, was 62 in 2015. He could have gone anywhere he wanted and coached. This is home... He was done except for one off gigs.
I think he still comes to some of the games. I think. Been like telling Frank Howard in 63 to hit the road, you ain't cutting no more.
The man deserved to RETIRE on his terms and probably have a frapping stature built. Mike Martin at fsu never won a natty but as coaches go, he is one of the best.
Yes, Leggett rubbed peeps the wrong way. He was a little crogidy in the older years. But he was tough on kids and they came out from under he and his tree of coaches a much better man...
DRad didn't make Dabo. Dabo made DRad. Maybe we ought to be discussing DRads future. It was just dead ### wrong what he did to Jack.
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All-In [43989]
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Come on, seriously?
Mar 15, 2021, 7:03 PM
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“DRad didn’t make Dabo, Dabo made DRad.”
Do you seriously believe that?
Before DRad was hired in 2012, Dabo had 1 ACC title and a losing record in bowl games.
Since DRad, Dabo has been much more successful including multiple conference and national championships. Is that success solely due to DRad? Of course not, but let’s not act as if Dabo was successful on his own. DRad has provided a lot of resources needed for Dabo to be successful, including new facilities (Reeves Football Complex, Death Valley renovations, etc.) as well as significant raises for Dabo and his staff.
Success is a team effort, and DRad has been a major part of our football success at Clemson.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Come on, seriously?
Mar 15, 2021, 7:59 PM
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One of your most insane, ridiculous hot takes ever. And that’s saying something. DRad “provides” absolutely nothing. Winning generates money. Dabo lays out the vision for his program. DRad’s greatest asset is staying out of the way. If Brownell could have generated excitement like Dabo and had nearly as clear cut a vision for his program then we could be much further along.
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All-In [43989]
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Nice job completely ignoring the actual data I posted.
Mar 15, 2021, 11:44 PM
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Dabo before DRad versus Dabo after DRad is a pretty amazing contrast. You can ignore it if you wish, or chalk it up to pure coincidence.
If DRad doesn’t approve record salaries for Dabo and his staff, and record facility improvements, we are still talking about that one special year in 1981 when we went undefeated and won the national championship.
It’s clear that you don’t like Radakovich, probably because he fired your boy Leggett, but your personal vendetta is keeping you from seeing reality here.
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Legend [18539]
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It was time for Jack to go.
Mar 15, 2021, 5:32 PM
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Wouldn’t recruit in SC. Kept players freaked out in close ball games resulting in losses. Started making to many Tommy Bowden style excuses. Became lackadaisical about the team.
Jack was a good coach and was good for Clemson but you have to keep from getting out shined for an extended period of time by your instate rival.
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CU Guru [1056]
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Re: Posted this in June 2019, still true now. Firing Leggett was
Mar 15, 2021, 6:52 PM
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Out in Omaha watching Clemson take on South Carolina. Don’t remember the year, but I will never forget the pregame huddles. South Carolina talking a little “remember this” and having a great time. Loose as a goose. ESPN goes to our huddle. Completely stone silent with Jack giving last minute coaching, tight as a tick. Before the first pitch - it was settled. Jack never got to thinking that the game belonged to the kids. He was sure we all were there to watch him coach. Different guy and kids have changed. It is stubbing CBB too-the fact that kids have changed. He doesn’t get to them. Unfortunate. CBB great guy.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Posted this in June 2019, still true now. Firing Leggett was
Mar 15, 2021, 8:03 PM
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Ah the old tight trope. And which was it. You were in Omaha watching. Or were watching on ESPN? Or you went to Omaha to watch on ESPN?
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Orange Blooded [4444]
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Re: Posted this in June 2019, still true now. Firing Leggett was
Mar 15, 2021, 7:04 PM
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The Fl and Vandy coach carried Jacks water for his main success When both left Jack became very average and the program started on a decline That’s why along with his attitude he was replaced Monte will be successful give him some more time
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Orange Blooded [3881]
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Re: Posted this in June 2019, still true now. Firing Leggett was
Mar 15, 2021, 9:40 PM
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a monumentally bad decision. And Clemson baseball could very well pay the price for this for a long time, just like I said when he was on the hot seat. Why bring it up again now? Acknowledging a mistake is the first step to avoiding the same stupid behavior in the future. Otherwise we end up like Tennessee football. https://www.tigernet.com/forum/thread/My-take-on-the-baseball-situation-1906506
No it wasn't! Jack Leggett had to go,collasol jerk!
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Replies: 40
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