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Rock Defender [53]
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The State once again revealing who they really are
Nov 11, 2021, 2:56 PM
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Legend [19901]
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Re: The State once again revealing who they really are
Nov 11, 2021, 3:18 PM
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This is to prevent massive bonfires that could result in loss of homes and personal property, not to mention deforestation of large areas of public land.
I surmised that from this part of the opinion;
"Those cheering on the banning, and in places like Spotsylvania County, Va. the possible burning of books, should also understand that once we agree that some books can be banned we tacitly agree that other books, including the ones you love, may suffer a similar fate."
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Orange Blooded [3516]
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Re: The State once again revealing who they really are
Nov 11, 2021, 3:24 PM
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I think yours might be an overreaction. I am not familiar with the book, but it appears the system in Fort Mill is working the way it should to ensure a proper review of the material. Whether it should have been more closely reviewed prior to hitting the shelves is another matter I guess…but I’m willing to bet your obscenity meter is much more sensitive than mine…so you and I would probably have a whole different set of books in our libraries.
I haven’t read the states obscenity laws, but I’m sure they are pretty arcane. Overall, I think any outrage has less to do with being ‘obscene’ and more about the subject matter in general.
I guess the state has to draw a line somewhere, but I am not a fan of book banning in general and the subject matter doesn’t strike me as necessarily inappropriate for a 16 year old. I would prefer the state give school districts broad discretion to decide what is and what is not appropriate in their district. Again, a complaint was raised and the mechanism is in place in Fort Mill to decide what to do…I’m ok with letting it play out.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: The State once again revealing who they really are
Nov 11, 2021, 3:31 PM
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Orange Blooded [3516]
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Re: The State once again revealing who they really are
Nov 11, 2021, 3:45 PM
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I guess the law is the law is the law…but you have to push the envelope every now and again I think.
There’s at least one book that’s probably found in every school library that contains tales of violence, mass genocide, incest, child marriage/rape, even a ‘hero’ king who sent his general off to die in battle so he could take satisfy his lust for the generals wife. Why does no one ever get upset about that one?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: The State once again revealing who they really are
Nov 11, 2021, 3:47 PM
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Orange Blooded [3516]
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Re: The State once again revealing who they really are
Nov 11, 2021, 3:53 PM
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I’m saying I don’t have any Ill will towards the district. If they do the review and decide it’s not appropriate, then that’s fine…agree with prod it’s just a little grandstanding on McMaster’s part.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: The State once again revealing who they really are
Nov 11, 2021, 4:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: The State once again revealing who they really are ] |
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People aren't going to go to jail for this book. SC obscenity laws cover disseminating obscene material to people under 18 without their consent, not a book sitting on a shelf that no one has to read. Now, I don't really see much value in having this material in the school library, but no one is breaking a law.
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Legend [18023]
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That's a key point in arguing this is obscenity
Nov 11, 2021, 4:51 PM
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it's a book in a HIGH SCHOOL library and from what I can tell is not part of any curriculum. First, you must define obscene, and then you have to say it's being disseminated and then show it was without consent. Tough arguments to make.
This is transparent grandstanding/virtue-signaling (it's not a coincidence they chose LGBTQ books to go after) and it's pretty laughable. I remember when some tried to ban books like Huck Finn because it had the N-word (and before that some wanted it banned because of how it portrayed southerners). I'm never on the side of banning books. History tends to not look at those people fondly.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: That's a key point in arguing this is obscenity
Nov 11, 2021, 4:55 PM
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All-In [42151]
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Re: That's a key point in arguing this is obscenity
Nov 11, 2021, 5:06 PM
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Setting it on a shelf doesn't qualify as distribution. As I mentioned before, no one is getting arrested for this.
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Legend [18023]
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are there previous cases where the law was applied?
Nov 11, 2021, 5:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: That's a key point in arguing this is obscenity ] |
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specifically to books in a high school library?
I think any case of "obscenity" will be tough to prove in this case b/c:
1.) "distribution" will be tough to define here as it's a book in a library and not part of a curriculum which means an individual would have to have chosen to read the book and did not have it "forced" upon them (or distributed to them).
2.) The law states that to determine obscenity "to a reasonable person, the material taken as a whole lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;" Who is to say this book doesn't have true artistic or literary value? Who determines that value?
I can understand being upset over the imagery and subject matter if this was a book in a middle school or elementary library, but a high school? I think that's a tougher argument.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: are there previous cases where the law was applied?
Nov 11, 2021, 5:15 PM
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Legend [18023]
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And that doesn't change the arguments I presented.
Nov 11, 2021, 5:30 PM
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But at least we can all agree no one is going to jail over this.
I do wonder if there are other cases where obscenity laws were applied to high school books though. If there were, they'd probably tell us how far this "case" will go.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: And that doesn't change the arguments I presented.
Nov 11, 2021, 5:36 PM
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Legend [18023]
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So, is Amazon guilty of "disseminating" the book too?
Nov 11, 2021, 3:06 PM
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That fits the description of "supplying it," "providing" and "disseminating" right? In fact, there's little difference, to me, between the book being available to purchase and it being available in a library. In both of those cases, it's left up to the reader's freedom of choice. Now contrast that with the book being part of a curriculum and I think you can see a clear distinction between the two circumstances where "obscenity" might apply to one and not to the other.
As for asking about previous cases: 1.) It's not an excuse, it's asking for precedent to see where this "case" might actually go, which is typical when talking about the law. 2.)I think the tenant in your example should probably think about suing  .
Obscenity law also states "to a reasonable person, the material taken as a whole lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;" That sure sounds like it's talking about subjective beliefs. So, if the world's best poetry also had graphic images there is still an argument that it'd have artistic/literary value. (This is another reason I was interested to know if there were previous obscenity law cases.)
But for what it's worth, I fully predict this book to be taken out of the libraries because it's not a classic (like huck finn) and it's probably not a popular book so there will be very little desire to fight for it to stay.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: So, is Amazon guilty of
Nov 11, 2021, 6:05 PM
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Legend [18023]
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I'd like to see where you got that info about artistic value
Nov 11, 2021, 6:25 PM
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because it sure sounds like a subjective opinion. I'm not even saying you're wrong, but it goes to my point about just how subjective that part of the law seems to be.
With the library, you have to find and check out the book, but in both cases (buying it on Amazon/library) you are showing a desire (or freedom of choice) to obtain the book. It's not being disseminated/distributed/provided to you without your consent as might occur if it was part of a curriculum (and I'm not saying it's for sure is obscene even in that case, but it fits the criteria much more than buying/checking it out).
Gun metaphor breakdown:
1.) I think it's illegal to have a gun in a school (books aren't illegal)
2.) An illegal action was done with the gun, no such illegal action could occur with a book (unless it's a really heavy book)
3.) Metaphor would make a bit more sense if you gave the gun to someone knowing they wanted to shoot someone.
4.) I think there's more in common with the argument to ban books than there is with the "ban guns" argument, so I'd be careful on which side of the argument you want to be on.
5.) It's not a good metaphor
But, good we agree on what will most likely still occur even if we don't agree on the merits of that conclusion.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I'd like to see where you got that info about artistic value
Nov 11, 2021, 6:39 PM
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Legend [18023]
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That's why I'd like to see prior cases...
Nov 11, 2021, 6:50 PM
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to see how that was applied (artistic value vs obscenity in books). I'll have to google that later.
I think I've been clear on the distinction I've made in comparing buying the book and a library having it on its shelves and how that relates to "disseminating". It's about consent of the reader. The act of looking for and finding the book is the key similarity there and the lack of any third party "pushing" or disseminating it to you without your consent is where I see a difference between finding it at a library/buying it online and it part of a curriculum (where consent may or may not be offered). And how that makes a big difference in regards to the obscenity laws (in my opinion). If you still disagree, that's fine, but I think at this point we'll just have to agree to disagree.
My points about the gun metaphor still stand.
Last sentence I agree with 100%.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: That's why I'd like to see prior cases...
Nov 11, 2021, 6:53 PM
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Legend [18023]
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to checking out a book or buying things online?
Nov 11, 2021, 7:04 PM
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lol
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: to checking out a book or buying things online?
Nov 12, 2021, 11:04 AM
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Legend [18023]
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What an absurd take in regards to the original discussion
Nov 12, 2021, 4:16 PM
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They aren't "receiving" obscene material. They are actively searching for it which is why, in the original discussion about "dissemination", the context of consent (in the non-legal definition of "their own choosing") mattered. Whatever nonsense you are trying to expand the conversation to include now doesn't matter in that original context.
note: I have no idea what your last sentence is even in reference to and I certainly never stated that argument.
note 2: Why can't you just agree to disagree on this and leave it?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: What an absurd take in regards to the original discussion
Nov 12, 2021, 4:23 PM
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Legend [18023]
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Last post on this from me...
Nov 12, 2021, 5:10 PM
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In the scenarios you set up they are still the ones choosing to find the book, or pull the book off the shelves. No one is giving them the book. That's the difference in regards to the argument about "dissemination". No one is forcing these high school students to read or even find the book. From their own desire to read the book comes their choice to search it out. And that's no different than if they go to their local library or buy it on Amazon. (note: This is a different argument than the argument surrounding what is or isn't obscene.
In regards to your argument about supplying "written law," the law (I assume you mean "obscenity law") you've provided only created the framework then you provided your own personal opinion on how it should be applied. That's no different than anyone else in this thread.
BTW, in no way has any of this discussion made me mad. I have made continuous attempts at finding a middle ground where we can agree, yet you continued to try to "win" this conversation which forced it down a repeating path and it's one I'm ready to stop traveling.
(Once again though, I'm glad we both can agree on my final conclusion. That's a perfect place to stop.  )
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Last post on this from me...
Nov 12, 2021, 5:24 PM
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110%er [5675]
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Re: The State once again revealing who they really are
Nov 11, 2021, 6:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: The State once again revealing who they really are ] |
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A slight modification to Cat's post:
I don't really see much value in [Rittenhouse go to the riots], but no one is breaking a law.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: The State once again revealing who they really are
Nov 11, 2021, 6:51 PM
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All-In [42151]
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Um, where did I say obscenity is a non-issue?
Nov 12, 2021, 7:55 AM
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Those words didn't come out of my keyboard.
And I'm not going to entertain comparing a kid shooting three people to this issue of a book that maybe slipped through damage control sitting on a shelf.
Nor should you. Let's dismiss children like NC from an adult conversation.
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All-In [42151]
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I'd wager this...
Nov 11, 2021, 3:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: The State once again revealing who they really are ] |
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I doubt many kids in that school had ever heard of that book or wanted to read it. I've never heard of it.
Now everyone's talking about it, and the kids who want it will make a point to get it.
Censorship really doesn't ever work.
I'm not arguing it's school appropriate, but this ain't the way to handle it.
Most obscenity laws go back to Miller v. California, but it may be hard to argue that completely optional reading in this setting would apply. I'm not sure here.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I'd wager this...
Nov 11, 2021, 4:01 PM
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All-In [42151]
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No, you don't.
Nov 11, 2021, 4:03 PM
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There's no literary value to them in a school library. And there may not be literary value to this book in question. That's why there's nothing wrong with the district reviewing it to see if it does or not.
McMaster calling for some grand sweeping hunt for books in all libraries is silly because of one incident that the district is already handling.
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All-In [26968]
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I would approve of removing the work from the school
Nov 11, 2021, 3:41 PM
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library, if the description given of its contents is accurate.
It does seem like grandstanding by the governor. The district was already doing what he said to do, seems like.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I would approve of removing the work from the school
Nov 11, 2021, 3:45 PM
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All-In [26968]
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I'm not sure what the process is for a school library.
Nov 11, 2021, 3:48 PM
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But I'm pretty sure it's different from curriculum. I can imagine that a detailed review of every book that gets into the library (hundreds? thousands?) may not occur. I'm not sure I could fault them, necessarily.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I'm not sure what the process is for a school library.
Nov 11, 2021, 3:50 PM
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All-In [26968]
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That's true. It got on a list somehow.
Nov 11, 2021, 3:53 PM
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I wonder if there's some kind of national list, that many school libraries use. Not even necessarily government...like from a publisher or something. It's an interesting topic.
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All-In [42151]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Also should be left up to...
Nov 11, 2021, 3:58 PM
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All-In [42151]
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There hasn't been a crime committed
Nov 11, 2021, 4:02 PM
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If you're referring to SC's criminal obscenity laws.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: There hasn't been a crime committed
Nov 11, 2021, 4:07 PM
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All-In [42151]
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Do you believe someone will be arrested for this?***
Nov 11, 2021, 4:07 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Do you believe someone will be arrested for this?***
Nov 11, 2021, 4:11 PM
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All-In [42151]
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As I said...
Nov 11, 2021, 4:16 PM
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It's sitting on a library shelf as optional reading. I don't know that constitutes as literary value to warrant it, and I don't really care to read it myself given the topic. And if a district reviews it and finds it doesn't have literary merit or indeed violates obscenity, by all means, proceed. Based on the description, it doesn't sound like it should be in there.
It certainly doesn't sound like something valid for any curriculum.
The governor isn't handling it right and now he's made it a bigger deal than necessary.
There are some books that have some pretty descriptive and adult scenes that are taught in curricula, like Beloved, the one with the controversy in Virginia. Or perhaps One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, which, unlike the movie, depicts the orderlies sexually assaulting the patients. We could even argue 1984 (hey, Tulsa), where Winston fantasizes about ###### and murdering Julia.
I'm not saying those are on par with this book in question, but would you take issue with that content being taught in high school?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: As I said...
Nov 11, 2021, 4:21 PM
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All-In [42151]
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Re: As I said...
Nov 11, 2021, 5:05 PM
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Google it yourself.
Nah, I'm good.
If it violates laws and a district/local government is able to determine that--as well as establish it has no literary merit in schools--then by all means.
McMaster is trying to start a witch hunt for books that probably aren't there because of one isolated incident. It'll either be a waste of time, or it'll result in some books that probably aren't a problem getting put up for question.
Just let local districts handle it. This one already was. And doing it quietly is a better way to go about it.
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All-In [38514]
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Cancel Culture***
Nov 11, 2021, 4:24 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Yeah pretty sure that's not what that means***
Nov 11, 2021, 4:35 PM
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Orange Blooded [3516]
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Re: Cancel Culture***
Nov 11, 2021, 5:45 PM
[ in reply to Cancel Culture*** ] |
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No…just SC’s version of Sharia Law. Under His Eye…
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Cancel Culture***
Nov 11, 2021, 5:49 PM
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Orange Blooded [3516]
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Re: Cancel Culture***
Nov 11, 2021, 6:13 PM
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No…I actually think just the opposite. If you google the book, you can see it (and some others) have gotten the attention of parents in a bunch of districts only very recently. My guess is there’s some sort of conservative network that targets books they deem offensive and creates a big to do to make some political hay. That book has probably been in most of those libraries for several years without a peep.
And to your last point…the last thing we should want is to be anything like TX or VA (now).
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Cancel Culture***
Nov 11, 2021, 6:15 PM
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Orange Blooded [3516]
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Re: Cancel Culture***
Nov 11, 2021, 6:57 PM
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The laws have been on the books for years…just find it interesting that we choose now to enforce them…
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Cancel Culture***
Nov 11, 2021, 7:01 PM
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Orange Blooded [3516]
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Re: Cancel Culture***
Nov 11, 2021, 7:06 PM
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Yeah…how’d you like to be a school administrator right now? No thank you!
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All-TigerNet [10887]
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This is nit-picking the edges when the real problem is
Nov 11, 2021, 5:37 PM
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that we have socialist schools and libraries. Abolish all "public" (socialist) institutions!
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All-In [42151]
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I forgot how awesome those private libraries are.
Nov 11, 2021, 5:40 PM
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#### society for offering free books and other resources to the public.
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Legend [18023]
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Legend [16252]
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The State doesn't even qualify as a fish wrapper these days.
Nov 11, 2021, 5:47 PM
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There's not enough volume. You need several days of them. Outside of the Sunday with and including all the circulars, you can't even roll one up and kill a palmetto bug with a single swat.
It's been a fitting demise for them (insert Mark Twain) since they went all Coot under Spurrier and Tanner Ball, ditching their Clemson stringer and splattering #### sport all over their front pages.
It most certainly does not live up to its name. They should give up our state emblem in their logo. It's Columbia at best and McClatchy's receivership's cheap outlays at worst.
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Orange Blooded [2999]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 932
Joined: 3/4/21
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Kids that read books in the library aren't the ones we need
Nov 12, 2021, 11:50 AM
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to be worried about.
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Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: Kids that read books in the library aren't the ones we need
Nov 12, 2021, 11:56 AM
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Orange Blooded [2999]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 932
Joined: 3/4/21
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Or what if it's a DIY gender reassignment surgery manual?
Nov 12, 2021, 12:14 PM
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Replies: 62
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