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All-TigerNet [12030]
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CU Medallion [73569]
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death panels, lol.***
Jun 4, 2013, 4:12 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Horribly stressful decisions where either option results
Jun 4, 2013, 4:14 PM
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in someone's death? Hobson's Choices for all, yay.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Not death panels
Jun 4, 2013, 4:18 PM
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She doesn't qualify for the adult lung transplant based on survivability %. If you give her an adult lung, then an adult who would have a better chance of actually surviving the transplant doesn't get one. It's a hard choice to make, but non the less a choice has to be made. Roll the dice on the girl, or give the lung to someone who has a better chance. Or maybe Kathleen Sebelius just enjoys killing people.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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so it is death panels then
Jun 4, 2013, 4:20 PM
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the gov gets to decide who gets treatment and who doesn't. So and 80 yr old have less survivability for cancer treatment than a 30 yrs old, so #### em.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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So your argument goes something like this
Jun 4, 2013, 4:24 PM
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Because a decision has to be made on a limited resource (in this case lungs) the same decision will also be made on a relatively unlimited resource like cancer treatment.
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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All decisions are made on a limited resource
Jun 4, 2013, 4:30 PM
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MONEY!!
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Cancer drugs, while expensive, are not limited
Jun 4, 2013, 4:31 PM
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We can afford to pay for them if we make that choice. No amount of money can pay for a donor lung.
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All-In [47806]
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Money is not limited?
Jun 4, 2013, 4:36 PM
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Quite the liberal mind set on ya! 
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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Re: Money is not limited?
Jun 4, 2013, 4:40 PM
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.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Sweet, so money is limited
Jun 4, 2013, 4:42 PM
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Then if it's a choice between the 80 year old and the 30 year old, who you backing. Oh, wait, no, money is limited unless you want healthcare.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Nope, money is only not an issue when it comes to healthcare
Jun 4, 2013, 4:40 PM
[ in reply to Money is not limited? ] |
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At least that's my understanding from this conversation.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Doctors wrote the guidelines. Sebelius is not moving
Jun 4, 2013, 9:55 PM
[ in reply to so it is death panels then ] |
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away from those guidelines.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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She just enjoys killing 10 year olds
Jun 4, 2013, 9:57 PM
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That is obviously the only reason. She as a politician she should overrule the doctors that came up with the law because a politician shouldn't come between doctors and medical care..wait...wut?
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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just throwing out a couple of other options:
Jun 4, 2013, 4:20 PM
[ in reply to Not death panels ] |
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one of her parents can give up their lungs to save her.
or we can base the waiting list on IQ. who cares if dumb people don't get lungs??
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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better than looking at IQs even,
Jun 4, 2013, 4:22 PM
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we could look at her IQ, her DNA, her parents' health records, her parents' education levels, etc. using that info, surely we can decide if she's worth a lung or not, right?
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110%er [8243]
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Her BMI should be top criteria.***
Jun 4, 2013, 4:24 PM
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Or better yet
Jun 4, 2013, 4:26 PM
[ in reply to better than looking at IQs even, ] |
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We could look at the medical data available and decide that there is a reason why doctors have separated child and adult lung transplant lists, and give the lung to an adult who has a better chance of surviving the operation. As mentioned there are 40 adults also waiting for lungs.
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110%er [8243]
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So, its death panels then.***
Jun 4, 2013, 4:27 PM
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Nope
Jun 4, 2013, 4:30 PM
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It's a choice between who gets to live, the adult with the better chance of surviving or the kid. In this choice one person has to die. I didn't make the rules, you might want to talk to God about this one.
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110%er [8243]
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The thing is, the choice should be between her, her family,
Jun 4, 2013, 4:34 PM
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and her doctors. HHS statistical analysis should never come into play. The rulebook you are falling back on does not work for every situation.
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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but if her parents weren't such lazy turds, they would have
Jun 4, 2013, 4:36 PM
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more money and could afford a cheap chinese lung, amirite?
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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So her doctor can decide that she deserves a lung
Jun 4, 2013, 4:39 PM
[ in reply to The thing is, the choice should be between her, her family, ] |
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What about the doctor of the other patient, I'm pretty sure he thinks his patient deserves a lung. I can't tell if you are trolling or if you legitimately don't understand that there isn't some stockpile of lungs laying around. A person dies in a car accident and someone gets a lung. The choice is an adult who is on the adult list, who has a higher chance of surviving, or a child on the adult list with a lower chance of surviving. Someone is not getting a lung, and that decision has to be made.
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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clearly, whoever can write the bigger check should get the
Jun 4, 2013, 4:41 PM
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lung. one good way to break the cycle of poverty.
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110%er [8243]
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The decision HHS made was to deny her a spot
Jun 4, 2013, 4:49 PM
[ in reply to So her doctor can decide that she deserves a lung ] |
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on the waiting list. I can't tell if you are trolling or if you legitimately don't understand that it isn't the federal governments place to set hard and fast rules on medical decisions.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Who makes the rules now?
Jun 4, 2013, 4:53 PM
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“The medical evidence and the transplant doctors who are making the rule — and have had the rule in place since 2005 making a delineation between pediatric and adult lungs, because lungs are different that other organs — that it’s based on the survivability [chances].”
Wait is says there transplant doctors. Did you skip over that part?
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110%er [8243]
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What about this part?
Jun 4, 2013, 4:59 PM
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"medical professionals think Murneghan could survive an adult lung transplant."
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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You mean her doctors
Jun 4, 2013, 5:01 PM
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Isn't their job to advocate for their patient? I bet the adult has a doctor that will say the same thing. Maybe if he's short enough they will let him be on the kid list as well.
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110%er [8243]
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So you are saying the death panel decision should stand.***
Jun 4, 2013, 5:02 PM
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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So how do you propose these organs be handed out
Jun 4, 2013, 5:05 PM
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Since there can be no rules, and everyone doctor is going to say that their patient is the best candidate?
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110%er [8243]
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If NCLB taught us anything, it is that decisions that
Jun 4, 2013, 5:48 PM
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affect individuals should not be made at the federal level.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Great plan, I'm sure the "just not federal"
Jun 4, 2013, 6:11 PM
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organ donation plan will run smoothly. You want it at a state level then, because someone, somewhere along the line is going to have to make the choice. I suppose whoever it is that finally has to make the choice (because making that choice sure isn't a job I want) is going to crucified by you?
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110%er [8243]
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so you think these decisions have always been
Jun 4, 2013, 9:51 PM
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made federally? Really? Surely you realize your rulebook is new, and that making the decisions locally has worked as well as possible since transplants began, right?
Are you afraid that if hospital systems are allowed to contine to make the decision based on individual cases, they will choose incorrectly, but if the rules are set by HHS, it will be smooth sailing? You must hate common sense.
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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Such negative connotations.
Jun 4, 2013, 4:30 PM
[ in reply to So, its death panels then.*** ] |
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Why can't we call em life panels? Everyone doesn't die, do they?
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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your glass is half full...of what i have no idea! #rodney***
Jun 4, 2013, 4:35 PM
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Fan [61]
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No, more like life panels
Jun 4, 2013, 4:42 PM
[ in reply to So, its death panels then.*** ] |
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Organ transplantation is complex and politicians should not be involved. I am not a fan of the current administration or the current head of HHS but I think it is right that she doesn’t get involved.
There are a lot of statistics (survivability both immediate and long-term) in play. Organs suitable for transplant are obviously scarce (else there wouldn’t be a waiting list). Meetings happen in hospitals all the time where doctors determine the best candidates for transplant. There are many criteria recipients must face / pass in order to be considered to receive an organ.
My wife is a radiologist and attends a meeting every Thursday morning where surgeons, radiologists, interventional radiologists, internal medicine docs, pathologists, and other specialties are represented and they review pending cases regarding those waiting for transplants. This is one hospital (granted a very large hospital). This happens at other hospitals and all of these must be coordinated. The docs owe it to the patients and the donors (family of the donors) to make sure only the best suited people get the organs.
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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11 posts in 10 years?
Jun 4, 2013, 4:45 PM
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What other transplant threads have you been involved in?
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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He's pacing himself
Jun 4, 2013, 4:46 PM
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Good post though.
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Fan [61]
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Re: 11 posts in 10 years?
Jun 4, 2013, 4:53 PM
[ in reply to 11 posts in 10 years? ] |
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Does it matter? I have lurked for years on this board and the Jounge. I don't usually post because really don't care to post. I just thought I could shed some light on the topic. Needless to say, it is complex.
If everyone would like, I can start posting all the time. I probably not as annoying as most and slightly less idiotic than others.
Seriously though, my wife is an actual radiologist (she works at Barnes-Jewish in STL) and sits through transplant meetings every Thursday morning for the last two years. I have learned a lot about transplants and transplant protocol.
Keep hitting F5.
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110%er [8243]
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I like this one.^^***
Jun 4, 2013, 4:55 PM
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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CU Medallion [54758]
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try hitting F and 5 separately?
Jun 4, 2013, 5:18 PM
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that should werk
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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Re: 11 posts in 10 years?
Jun 4, 2013, 5:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: 11 posts in 10 years? ] |
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If you've lurked enough, then you should know that my post was in jest.
I already called "life panels" earlier in the thread. But that was in jest, as well.
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Fan [61]
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Oh I know
Jun 4, 2013, 5:15 PM
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I was just explaining myself for the others who can't think for themselves (I have no clue who I could be talking about).
You did make me feel bad though. I didn't realize I have been on here for almost ten years and only have 14 posts to show for it. I have to step my game up. Here is for 15 posts over the next ten years.
Maybe I should start worrying about my pulse. I am going to lie awake at night hoping it doesn't go down. If I can keep my blood pressure high enough worrying, I can get me one of them fancy new kidneys everyone is trying to get. I doubt my wife could or would help me with that though.
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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Do they still sell 'em on ebay?***
Jun 4, 2013, 5:18 PM
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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right, but what if it's a really stupid, lazy adult who
Jun 4, 2013, 4:29 PM
[ in reply to Or better yet ] |
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needs a lung because he was a lifelong smoker vs. a young girl with a brain and lots of potential? i'd say screw the old guy, let's roll the dice on the one that might make a difference.
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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I would agree but, get in line.***
Jun 4, 2013, 4:31 PM
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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Let's say that they waive.
Jun 4, 2013, 4:24 PM
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Does she go to the front of the line? There's 40 on the list.
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CU Medallion [56067]
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Is this gonna be like Terri Schiavo?
Jun 4, 2013, 6:19 PM
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Pro-lifers will get all hot and bothered about this specific case without actually understanding the larger picture and quickly forgetting their supposedly deep seated opinion once they see something shiny?
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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They just like to type death panel
Jun 4, 2013, 6:21 PM
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It makes them think of Sarah Palin, and when they think of Sarah Palin, they get a tingle up and down their spine.
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All-In [34107]
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Legend [18021]
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They'll move on once the opinion makers move on
Jun 4, 2013, 9:16 PM
[ in reply to Is this gonna be like Terri Schiavo? ] |
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(i.e. tv/blogs/radio) They'll parrot whatever dribble gets fed to them to stay angry. Then move on to something else. Never really knowing or caring about any principle other than "stay angry!"
Both sides do it, and it's weird how easily and frequently it happens.
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All-In [29036]
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I feel bad for the kid.
Jun 4, 2013, 7:37 PM
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Everyone involved feels bad for the kid, no doubt. But this is a classic case of the application of scarce (in the very truest sense of the word) resources. This ins't a "It'll cost too much" decision, which I truly understand folks objections to.
This is a case where medical professionals who have examined the statistics have made a determination that a viable adult lung has a considerably better chance of saving the life of an adult than a child. And while that, of course, will lead to sad situations such as these I'd argue that focusing on any single instance and asking for rules to be changed (at the cost of another potential life saved) is a poor, at best, way to make these decisions.
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All-In [34107]
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Yes.***
Jun 4, 2013, 10:22 PM
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