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Looks like it's just a matter of time now before
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Looks like it's just a matter of time now before


Jul 17, 2015, 4:18 PM

they change the name. I'll always call it Tillman just from habit. I don't agree with what he did to black people during his lifetime, but I also don't think we should just remove him from Clemson's history.

http://www.tigernet.com/update/player/Clemson-renounces-Ben-Tillman-create-task-force-19791

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ROH


Just another ####### thing.


Jul 17, 2015, 4:22 PM

Lets stop talking about anybody in history because they are all fuggin racist.

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That works for me***


Jul 17, 2015, 4:22 PM



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ROH


regardless of what they rename it to I'll always call it the


Jul 17, 2015, 4:30 PM

Bi-Lo Center....#### this bon secours supergoodhealthfacilityplacearena center.

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Bi-Lo, the name fits***


Jul 17, 2015, 4:32 PM



2024 purple level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Bi - Lo quality foods.***


Jul 17, 2015, 4:33 PM



badge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-aero.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"She's tougher than a Bi-Lo steak."


Jul 18, 2015, 7:50 AM

Buddy of mine, talking about a hot girl.

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"Every man is my superior, in that I may learn something from him."


As a history major...


Jul 17, 2015, 4:34 PM

I want to pull my hair out over the direction society is headed in. When an individual from the past is held to modern standards, you eliminate the need for history altogether.

Using the most immediate example, Tillman, for all his personal faults, created far more good in the world than bad by, more or less, establishing Clemson University. Not that they're in the same category of character, but the same logic can be applied to Abraham Lincoln, who wanted blacks exported back to Africa; Henry Ford, a proud supporter of anti-Semitic literature; and countless other historical figures that we admire and elevate.

I truly don't understand how we got to this point where social and psycho-engineering and the illusion of "creating history," started carrying more weight than the actions we undertake. One can only wonder what they'll say about us: "How could those neanderthals poison their children with preservatives in their foods while willingly and actively flooding their air with carbon emissions? And they claim to be good people as they're killing their society? 'Terrorists' is more like it."

We really are to that point. I'm baffled.

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Because people started pretending to give a #### about


Jul 17, 2015, 4:37 PM

other people.

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I drive a Ford and would love to have a Lincoln


Jul 18, 2015, 9:40 PM [ in reply to As a history major... ]

#nomsayin

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Is removing his name from a building changing history?***


Jul 17, 2015, 4:59 PM



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It's not changing the events.


Jul 17, 2015, 5:10 PM

It's changing the way they are perceived. And considering the impact that perception has on historiography...yes, it is changing history.

Many alumni and those with a particular attachment to Clemson will view today's statement in a vacuum, which will cause a lot of irrational and emotionally-fueled discussions. The real problem isn't the desire to erase Tillman from Clemson, though. It's the especially flawed logic behind that desire.

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But is changing his name on a building erasing his history?


Jul 17, 2015, 5:17 PM

What is the logic behind the desire?

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Again, not the events, no.


Jul 17, 2015, 5:37 PM

The historiography of Tillman and, to some degree, Clemson? Yep.

The logic behind wanting Tillman's name removed from Tillman Hall (or Clemson) is stated clearly by the board: Tillman is "repugnant to our values and our fundamental purpose of being a high seminary of education."

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more or less than when the name was changed from main?


Jul 17, 2015, 5:53 PM

just as the University saw to honor Tillman with renaming the building in 1946, how is them seeing to rename it in 2015 different?

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they should sell the naming rights seems everything else


Jul 17, 2015, 6:23 PM

is for sale

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Re: Well, let's take up a collection


Jul 17, 2015, 6:40 PM

And call it something something Robert E. Lee, no wait, Nikki Haley Higher Economic Opportunity for All Clemson Graduates.
Or, the Center for Eliminating Gamecocks and Other Undesirable Religious Attitudes.

There may be a good country song in there somewhere.

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Probably about the same impact.


Jul 17, 2015, 7:50 PM [ in reply to more or less than when the name was changed from main? ]

Multiple generations grew up with an affinity for what they identify as Tillman Hall. And if the university opts to rename it to something else, no doubt that multiple generations will grow up with an affinity for that building. But generational adaptation doesn't necessarily justify sweeping changes to iconic symbols. If it did, none of us should have a problem with Memorial Stadium being renamed.

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So the argument is about affinity for tradition


Jul 17, 2015, 9:28 PM

not about the historical significance of the name itself. At least from the "keep the name" side?

Whereas, the side that wants to change the name is arguing the name has a historically negative affiliation that they don't want associated with the University?

As for your example about Memorial Stadium, isn't the opposite just as true? Memorial Stadium has gone through many structural changes (which is continuing right now) so it's historical appearance is nothing like it's present self. Sometimes present issues and concerns necessitate change to tradition, do they not?

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Not at all.


Jul 17, 2015, 10:55 PM

Is removing his name from a building changing history?

My answer was 'not the events, but the perception of them and their associations.'

But is changing his name on a building erasing his history?

My answer was the same. But by re-stating, you seem to be searching for a black and white answer.

More or less than when the name was changed from main?

My answer was 'about the same,' followed by: "generational adaptation doesn't necessarily justify sweeping changes to iconic symbols."

So the argument is about affinity for tradition, not about the historical significance of the name itself. At least from the "keep the name" side?

Not at all. Your words - not mine. My argument was plainly stated in the post you responded to ("generational adaptation doesn't necessarily justify sweeping changes to iconic symbols").

Whereas, the side that wants to change the name is arguing the name has a historically negative affiliation that they don't want associated with the University?

Correct.

As for your example about Memorial Stadium, isn't the opposite just as true? Memorial Stadium has gone through many structural changes (which is continuing right now) so it's historical appearance is nothing like it's present self.

Nope. It's not. It's apples and oranges to compare the motivations of a name change to those of a physical renovation unless you value them equally (most don't).

Sometimes present issues and concerns necessitate change to tradition, do they not?

Sure - sometimes. But as I twice stated, I don't believe so in this case.

I'm happy to carry this into t-mail. I don't mind playing 20 (or in this case, seven) questions, but I'm genuinely interested to hear your argument against "generational adaptation doesn't necessarily justify sweeping changes to iconic symbols," rather than simply responding to suggestive questioning.

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Questions were in attempt to understand your argument


Jul 17, 2015, 11:01 PM

(and others I've heard) that go beyond the black and white idea of generational adaptation doesn't necessarily justify sweeping changes to iconic symbols which I didn't think was elaborated on enough.

I'll continue in t-mail.

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It hurts to say this


Jul 17, 2015, 8:50 PM

But if Clemson University panders to this history cleansing or whatever you want to call it, I will disassociate myself from it in every way moving forward. I can't believe what I'm seeing. What a crock.

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GO YOU HAIRY FIGHTING CLEMSON UNIVERSITY


Jul 18, 2015, 9:41 AM

POLITICAL CORRECTORS GO FIGHT TEAM YEAH GO.

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