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All-In [27262]
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5th place is a great success!
Apr 1, 2021, 11:26 AM
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April fools!
5th place is still 5th place
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CU Medallion [64517]
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If you ain't first, you're last***
Apr 1, 2021, 11:28 AM
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All-In [43989]
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Since joining the ACC in 1953, Clemson basketball
Apr 1, 2021, 11:33 AM
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has finished in the top 5 of the ACC 22 times.
Of those 22 times, 16 were when the ACC was only 8-9 teams so that's nothing to brag about.
The real accomplishment is finishing in the top 5 in an expanded ACC. Purnell did it 3 times and Brownell has done it 3 times.
Since you and a few other "fans" are so intent on diminishing the significance of a top 5 finish in a 15-team ACC for Clemson basketball, please tell us what would impress you and how you came up with that expectation.
Go ahead...
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CU Medallion [58367]
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Because 5th place is 5th place dumbace.
Apr 1, 2021, 11:44 AM
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And 5th place is not great. It's ONLY good in the context of a terrible basketball history, and if we use that as any kind of standard, we can always make ourselves feel good about perpetual mediocrity.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Because 5th place is 5th place dumbace.
Apr 1, 2021, 12:06 PM
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You’re right, it is good when considering our dismal basketball history as well as recent performance.
It’s all about improvement and we greatly improved since last season. We were going to improve again next year and still might. Sucks losing O-max. I thought he was going to be a big part of next year.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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What is the chance that we break out of mediocrity next
Apr 1, 2021, 12:14 PM
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season? Close to ZERO! We will not challenge for the ACC championship and will not finish in the top 25 in the country and will not advance past the 1st round of the NCAA tournament. Wake up, people! This program needs to have life breathed into it, it needs HOPE.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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We'll be lucky to make the Tournament next year.
Apr 1, 2021, 12:28 PM
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Some people are hoping for a jump in production from guys that have never produced or are not even on the team currently. That jump has never happened from one year to the next under Brownell. The two guys we currently have committed are not difference makers. Not to mention a general lack of leadership on the team.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: We'll be lucky to make the Tournament next year.
Apr 1, 2021, 1:12 PM
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I’m expecting improvement from the following people.
Do you think these are bad basketball players?
Dawes
Honor
Hemenway
Hall
Tyson
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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No. I don't. That's 33 points/game and 11 rebounds/game
Apr 1, 2021, 2:18 PM
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That is about half the points that our team scored this year per game to rank 349th in points scored and about one-third of the 33 rebounds per game this year to rank 335th in the nation. Not to mention the lack of a leader in the group.
Though I expect some improvement in their play, if history is our guide, it won't be that much if at all. We need 2-3 immediate impact players form the transfer portal if we want to take a step forward next year.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: What is the chance that we break out of mediocrity next
Apr 1, 2021, 1:08 PM
[ in reply to What is the chance that we break out of mediocrity next ] |
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season? Close to ZERO! We will not challenge for the ACC championship and will not finish in the top 25 in the country and will not advance past the 1st round of the NCAA tournament. Wake up, people! This program needs to have life breathed into it, it needs HOPE.
Define mediocrity?
Another 5th place finish including another trip to the tourney with a win would not be mediocrity for Clemson.
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110%er [5489]
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Re: What is the chance that we break out of mediocrity next
Apr 1, 2021, 1:45 PM
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Another 5th place finish including another trip to the tourney with a win would not be mediocrity for Clemson
THIS is the problem. "For Clemson". Why are we only striving to be better than our history, instead of striving to be great?
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: What is the chance that we break out of mediocrity next
Apr 1, 2021, 1:51 PM
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The goal is to be great. Yes you are correct. But to think we should be competing with UNC and Duke year after year is insane.
They get 3-4 McDonald’s all Americans every year in recruiting. We have had 1 all time and it was Milton Jennings.
Why is that? Serious question for you. Why do Duke and unc basketball recruit so much better than us? It’s not because we have Brad brownell as our coach.
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110%er [5489]
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Re: What is the chance that we break out of mediocrity next
Apr 1, 2021, 2:20 PM
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They get recruits because of name recognition, excitement, support of their programs by fans and administration, and because they win.
There is not excitement around Clemson basketball. We play a boring style, we don't do a good job of developing players, we don't win on the big stage, etc. I'd say we've done a better job financially over the past 6 years or so of supporting the team, improving Littlejohn. Next step is a change in culture, an installation of excitement, a creation of style that will drive fan support and recruit recognition.
All of the posts here about fans not supporting the team...why is it that those of you making those comments refuse to recognize that the support is directly tied to the excitement in the gym? It's BORING and PAINFUL to watch our style of play. And that's not just my opinion...I have a lot of friends that cheer for a lot of different teams, and we watch games together often. It's a consensus among them all that Clemson's games are boring.
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Orange Blooded [2723]
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Re: What is the chance that we break out of mediocrity next
Apr 1, 2021, 4:31 PM
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It’s like Paul Johnson’s triple option offense. Sure it works sometimes, wins a few big games, even wins more than it loses. It will just NEVER elevate a program to a new level of play and will NEVER advance the program. It’s the very definition of mediocrity.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: What is the chance that we break out of mediocrity next
Apr 1, 2021, 7:29 PM
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That would be OP's press actually....
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110%er [5489]
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Re: What is the chance that we break out of mediocrity next
Apr 1, 2021, 8:07 PM
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Well, that press and style of play created the best run of success and excitement we've had in the program in the past 20+ years. OP accomplished in his last 3 years what took Brownell 11. And it's somewhere around a 50/50 split of how many people want Brownell to leave...nobody wanted OP to leave.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: What is the chance that we break out of mediocrity next
Apr 1, 2021, 1:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: What is the chance that we break out of mediocrity next ] |
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The trick about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is that you have to put on your boots first. We have been shoeless so long we have tar all up alongside our backside.
Look at WF, look at NC State and tell me that chasing coaches is a good strategy. Next, please give me an example of a "instant and sustained success" coach in recent times that has NOT come under fire from some shady dealings. I am 110% glad that we have slowly built the *right* way. Because the NCAA will let UNC cheat for 18 years, they won't with us - to easy of a target.
You build the foundation. We are doing that. We are getting better each iteration. Success builds on success and we can keep building there.
And this year was not a mediocre year and nor was it a true "5th". The NCAA saw true that we were the 3rd best in the acc this year. I will take that and then look to build upon it.
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Letterman [263]
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Ok, here it is,
Apr 1, 2021, 11:47 AM
[ in reply to Since joining the ACC in 1953, Clemson basketball ] |
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the 5th place finish had nothing to do with having the most beneficial home/road split in the league. Particularly with our amazing success on the road this season in the ACC.
4. GT 11-6 (9 home & 8 away)
5. Clemson 10-6 (9 home & 7 away)
6. UNC 10-6 (7 home & 9 away)
7. Louisville 8-5 (6 home & 7 away)
8. Syracuse 9-7 (8 home & 8 away)
9. NC St. 9-8 (8 home & 9 away)
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Ok, here it is,
Apr 1, 2021, 11:51 AM
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Nope, fail
I posted this about VT - basically they were 3rd in the standings but not really. They benefited from playing the weaker schedule early and the postponing all of their tough road games
Sure our 16-7 or 10-6 isn't as flashy as VT's 9-4 but our wins came against better opponents and a tougher schedule. We played against more Tournament bound teams (going 8-5) as VT played conference games (going 9-4 - or 7-1 vs non-tourney teams).
So we played the tournament bound ACC team 10 times and went 5-5. VT Played the same group of teams 5 times, going 2-3 and really avoided playing the ed of their schedule which had a lot of tourney bound teams on the road. If VT played 16 games and held the same results they would likely been 9-7 as they would have had games AT UVA AT FSU (really FSU twice) AT NC State, and AT UNC. They would also host UofL in Bleaksburg.
Same can be said about GT. They were able to play against more teams and more bottom teams if I recall. We swapped BC for UofL and then missed out on PITT and ND. If we played those games, we would have been 12-6 in conference and been ranked about 3rd.
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110%er [5489]
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Re: Ok, here it is,
Apr 1, 2021, 12:19 PM
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If we played PITT and ND on the road, we would have been 10-8. Not 12-6.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Ok, here it is,
Apr 1, 2021, 12:28 PM
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So I bet you show up at Littlejohn dressed like this: 
We were a complete mismatch for Pitt. They had their best offensive showing vs us (50% from the arc) and we still beat them by 15. ND was better than their record suggests but struggled with defensive teams and they were not very good holding ser4ve at home. We even swapped BC for UofL.
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110%er [5489]
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Re: Ok, here it is,
Apr 1, 2021, 12:30 PM
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That all may be true, but we were an awful basketball team in true away games.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Ok, here it is,
Apr 1, 2021, 1:15 PM
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Not really, we were 2-5. We dropped to Duke, Cuse, VT, GT and FSU. Duke was the only team that was not a Tourney team and we were 1-1 with Cuse, FSU, and GT.
If you win 1/2 of your road games (and hold at home) in the ACC you win the season. The only team above .500 on the road was UVA. Followed by UofL and NC State at .500 . Even GT was 3-5 on the road and really their advantage there was they were able to play VT when VT was basically not playing for a month. ND was 5-4 at home (part of their issues), Pitt was 4-3 at home.
We did not drop a road game to a team under .500 - but granted, that was only 2 games. But we only played two road games against team under .500. Pitt/ND would have been two more.
Now compare that to VT which went 7-1 vs non-tourney teams. VT avoided their road games against the top half of the league. FSU is also a similar comparison at 3-4 on the road. However, they played us, Miami, UNC, Notre Dame, UoL, GT and Pitt. They won vs Miami, Pitt, and UofL so they were not winning against top level teams on he road either... save for UofL. UN
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110%er [5489]
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Re: Ok, here it is,
Apr 1, 2021, 1:35 PM
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Yes, really. Did you watch those road games? Outside of Wake Forest, we were terrible in all of them. Not just bad...terrible.
It extended to Greensboro and Indy, too.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Ok, here it is,
Apr 1, 2021, 1:48 PM
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Well, you might as well toss in neutral site games then as we beat Miss State, Purdue, and Alabama away from littlehjohn too. You can't complain about Greensboro and Indy and not include those.
So we had a two-game travel schedule from Atlanta/Alamama to Bleaksburg. Came out flat in the second but still clawed our way back and almost stole the game. It was not really a "bad game" frustrating beyond belief but not a "bad" game. The other two hard road games (vs FSU and GT) were after our first covid layoff and we were flat. Actually, against GT we had a great game - they just had an unreal game. They shot better from the arc than inside the paint. Nothing to do there. The only real stinker was VS duke and that was just a bad game.
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110%er [5489]
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Re: Ok, here it is,
Apr 1, 2021, 2:13 PM
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The early-season neutral site games have been addressed multiple times. That was 4 months ago and unfortunately we regressed while those teams improved throughout the season.
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All-In [27262]
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Re: Since joining the ACC in 1953, Clemson basketball
Apr 1, 2021, 12:13 PM
[ in reply to Since joining the ACC in 1953, Clemson basketball ] |
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My expectations are to win. Just like all the other “fans” you talk about. We want to win. We want to win big games. We want to win tournament games. We want to win conference titles and national titles.
Those are my expectations. I know it’s not likely we win nattys every year. But winning the acc maybe 1 every decade isn’t too much to ask IMO.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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I expect continued mediocrity under Brownell.
Apr 1, 2021, 12:57 PM
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In all fairness, he flirted with breaking out of mediocrity this year, and by Clemson historical standards, it was a pretty good year. But, objectively, looking at all of the teams in America, we were a mid-tier team: 5th place in a not so great conference, unranked pretty much all year. That may be better than average, but good lord, it's nothing to write home about. Despite our dismal history, we are capable of better, and my expectations for Clemson basketball are based on what can be, not what has been.
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110%er [5489]
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Re: I expect continued mediocrity under Brownell.
Apr 1, 2021, 1:00 PM
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Exactly. Complacent fans are the issue. Judge would have you believe vocal fans are the issue...sometimes change is good. Mediocrity is not a goal.
And for f's sake, some excitement in the gym would be nice. We play 3 yards and a cloud of dust basketball, and nobody is interested.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: I expect continued mediocrity under Brownell.
Apr 1, 2021, 1:18 PM
[ in reply to I expect continued mediocrity under Brownell. ] |
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In all fairness, he flirted with breaking out of mediocrity this year, and by Clemson historical standards, it was a pretty good year. But, objectively, looking at all of the teams in America, we were a mid-tier team: 5th place in a not so great conference, unranked pretty much all year. That may be better than average, but good lord, it's nothing to write home about. Despite our dismal history, we are capable of better, and my expectations for Clemson basketball are based on what can be, not what has been.
I agree with a lot of what you said.
However it’s not like we are going to hire a coach and it’s going to be guaranteed success. Look at no state since herb sendek. I don’t believe Clemson’s lack of success over the last 10 years is on brownell.
I would put our chances of hiring a new coach that gives us your level of sustained success at about 10%.
Just look at our history of hiring coaches.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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Re: I expect continued mediocrity under Brownell.
Apr 1, 2021, 2:34 PM
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I don't expect guaranteed success, so I don't know what you're getting at. We may never have sustained success, say, on the level of Duke or UNC, but it's certainly not unrealistic to think that we could be better than we ever have been, and outright win the ACC every now and then, or at least challenge for the championship every few years. I don't think that's unrealistic or unreasonable at all. The fact is, under Brownell, we have absolutely no reason to think that is likely, or even possible, and plenty of evidence to suggest it's not.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: I expect continued mediocrity under Brownell.
Apr 1, 2021, 3:35 PM
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And my point is that it would be dumb to fire brownell now. He has proved recruiting has improved since the facility upgrades. I think we can have sustained success under brownell if he can continue to recruit well. This years class has been disappointing. OMax transferring was disappointing.
That being said, we do have good players coming back. If we don’t continue to improve, then I agree we should move on from brownell.
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CU Guru [1650]
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Re: Since joining the ACC in 1953, Clemson basketball
Apr 1, 2021, 12:56 PM
[ in reply to Since joining the ACC in 1953, Clemson basketball ] |
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Be honest, are you Walt Deptula? Your mannerisms and support of one Coach Brownell seem eerily similar.
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Orange Blooded [4086]
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Re: Since joining the ACC in 1953, Clemson basketball
Apr 1, 2021, 3:25 PM
[ in reply to Since joining the ACC in 1953, Clemson basketball ] |
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Kind of an odd thing to say.
The ACC used to be a good league with only one or two bad teams with Clemson regularly being one of them.
Now the league is watered down. We no longer play the best teams twice in a season so there are more games against weaker competition.
Almost all teams that joined the league year in and year out are below the quality of 7 of the 9 (including FSU in pre expansion).
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Orange Blooded [2403]
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Hall of Famer [21722]
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I say we make 5th Place Rings to celebrate the milestone!!!
Apr 1, 2021, 3:29 PM
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The coots did it years ago and look how successful they are now!!!
~JKB
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Orange Blooded [4997]
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Re: 5th place is a great success!
Apr 1, 2021, 8:35 PM
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I think we finished 9th place in the ACC Tourny. Which Shyatt accomplished several times
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