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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Name one thing that Russia has done to the US in the last
Jul 16, 2018, 8:40 PM
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20 years that is more aggressive than the US steadily moving our military closer to their borders. And why do so many seemingly rationally people completely ignore this massive clue that there might be something wrong with the Russia-is-evil narrative?
So what is the answer? Don't ignore it. Don't avoid it. Answer it.
Not election meddling. We do worse.
Not invading other countries. We do it more often and at 20x greater human cost.
Russia being an evil aggressor is a politically useful narrative. It is not reality. Logic, history and critical thinking can easily disabuse people of the spoon-fed assumption.
The military industrial complex needs Americans to believe in bogeymen. Stop letting mainstream american political narratives define your world-view.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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They interfered with our democracy
Jul 16, 2018, 8:48 PM
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There is no defending or justifying what we are seeing right now. Country over party. You're going to have to come to grips with the fact that you've been suckered eventually.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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You are the one who has been suckered.
Jul 16, 2018, 8:49 PM
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Who suckered me exactly?
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All-In [42026]
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Re: They interfered with our democracy
Jul 16, 2018, 9:42 PM
[ in reply to They interfered with our democracy ] |
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CSO is no Trumpie. However, I agree with you. Today was inexcusable and Trump publicly sided with a murderous dictator over his nation.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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So if we kill hundreds of thousands of people over a lie...
Jul 17, 2018, 2:20 PM
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does that mean our president is a "murderous elected official?"
Obama was responsible for more death and destruction than Putin. So was Bush. So was Clinton. So was papa Bush. So was Raegan. But the AMOUNT of deaths isn't as important as what... the fact we are a democracy and we vote for it, or willingly ignore it?
And Putin is not a dictator. There was an election that was observed by international organizations. Was it as free as ours? Hell no. But you are inaccurate to call all non-NATO leaders dictators.
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All-In [42026]
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Re: So if we kill hundreds of thousands of people over a lie...
Jul 17, 2018, 3:46 PM
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You won't get any argument from me about all the people the folks you named killed in conflict. I don't agree with it, either.
Putin, however, does that while at the same time having his own civilians murdered if they oppose him. There's the difference (at least, I hope there's a difference there...)
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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So murdering lots of foreigners and murdering people in your
Jul 17, 2018, 6:55 PM
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own country constitutes a moral difference?
Lost in all of this is still the fact that the USA is a bigger threat to Russia, by a LONG shot, than they are to us. Our behavior towards Russia is far more aggressive than their behavior towards us.
Look at the hairs you are splitting. Look at the salient points I am talking about.
Plus, I do not agree that Putin has people murdered for disagreeing with him to the level you apparently believe it. I believe Russia is far more repressive than we are, but political history has more to do with that than Putin being some sort of evil troll.
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1st Rounder [616]
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But Putin is interested in reassembling the former Soviet Bloc
Jul 17, 2018, 10:20 PM
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His action as in Ukraine indicate an aggressor.
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110%er [6101]
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You're WRONG about the Ukraine. Way wrong.
Jul 18, 2018, 6:51 AM
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Putin intervened there to stop the Soros-funded Orange Revolution. He was too late. He grabbed Crimea to save it before it also fell. If your looking for explanations for geo political happenings you need to look closer at George Soros.
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All-In [31861]
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Shoot and all this time I thought it had to do with...
Jul 18, 2018, 11:36 AM
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NATO courting the Ukraine.
Silly me.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Courting is a nice way to put it. How about "meddling?"***
Jul 18, 2018, 12:35 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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LOL, no dude. He's not. Not even remotely close.
Jul 18, 2018, 11:18 AM
[ in reply to But Putin is interested in reassembling the former Soviet Bloc ] |
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Ukraine indicates that the West was over-aggressive.
Putin is not a communist. Russia is not trying to annex Ukraine. Russia had no plans to annex Crimea until a NATO-backed coup overthrew the elected government of Ukraine and worked with actual neo-Nazi's who threatened the status of Russians made up a majority in parts of Ukraine.
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110%er [6101]
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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BTW, The USA has interfered 81 times in foreign elections
Jul 18, 2018, 12:03 PM
[ in reply to They interfered with our democracy ] |
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Its like the kettle calling the pot black. It does not make it right, but all Countries that are capable try to influence another Country's elections. After all, wasn't Hillary and company always seemed to want to go to war with Russia? Now, Russia is a real potential foe, they are not a bunch of amateurs wildly shooting their AK's. Maybe Russia wanted Trump to win because they realized they could get along with this guy ?
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention-foreign-elections-20161213-story.html
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CU Medallion [58376]
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Maybe Trump is onto something after all.***
Jul 16, 2018, 9:13 PM
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Heisman Winner [111423]
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Re: Maybe Trump is onto something after all.***
Jul 16, 2018, 9:22 PM
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Putin and Russia are just poor wittle victims in all of this. I hope we can to the bottom of this dastardly business so we can find the real perpetrator(Clinton) and bring them to justice.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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The whole world is the victim here. Americans are seemingly
Jul 16, 2018, 9:32 PM
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incapable of processing the obvious, massive hypocrisies and inconsistencies when it comes to our relationships with other countries.
It is an extreme delusion on a very large scale.
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Legend [18007]
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and you are one of the few who can see this clear reality?***
Jul 16, 2018, 9:39 PM
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Orange Blooded [4974]
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Re: and you are one of the few who can see this clear reality?***
Jul 16, 2018, 10:56 PM
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No he's one of scores of millions.
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Legend [18007]
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I highly doubt that***
Jul 16, 2018, 11:30 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Why? Because the news didn't say it?***
Jul 17, 2018, 2:01 PM
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Orange Blooded [4974]
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All-In [45664]
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Legend [18007]
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You can't make that argument...
Jul 16, 2018, 9:58 PM
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and then post a map that has no source and seems shockingly incomplete as your "evidence."
I think there is an argument to be made for pulling back on the number of military bases we have across the world, but this isn't a good one.
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All-In [28802]
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It's especially silly...
Jul 17, 2018, 1:38 PM
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since those countries asked us to come there to protect them from Russian aggression. It's not like the US has threatened to invade Russia or like non-dictatorships have asked Russia for their help in curbing American aggression.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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The map isn't my "source." What are you talking about?
Jul 17, 2018, 1:53 PM
[ in reply to You can't make that argument... ] |
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Common knowledge isn't supposed to require sources.
What on Earth on you unaware of in my post that you need sources for? None of those facts are debated. Sadly enough, only the conclusion is debated.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Triggered.***
Jul 17, 2018, 2:02 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I think a "your mama" joke would have represented you
Jul 17, 2018, 2:09 PM
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better than that horse-beaten cliche. Adults are talking.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Yikes***
Jul 17, 2018, 2:26 PM
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110%er [9879]
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110%er [9879]
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110%er [9879]
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110%er [9879]
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Re: I think a "your mama" joke would have represented you
Jul 17, 2018, 2:32 PM
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Yo mama’s so fat…She stepped on a scale and it said “To be continued.”
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110%er [9879]
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Re: I think a "your mama" joke would have represented you
Jul 17, 2018, 2:32 PM
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Yo mama’s so fat…I swerved to miss her in my car and ran out of gas.
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110%er [9879]
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Re: I think a "your mama" joke would have represented you
Jul 17, 2018, 2:32 PM
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Yo mama’s so fat…When she wears high heels, she strikes oil.
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110%er [9879]
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Re: I think a "your mama" joke would have represented you
Jul 17, 2018, 2:33 PM
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Yo mama’s so depressing…Blues singers come to visit her when they’ve got writer’s block.
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110%er [9879]
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Re: I think a "your mama" joke would have represented you
Jul 17, 2018, 2:33 PM
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Yo mama’s so fat…She was overthrown by a small militia group, and now she’s known as the Republic of Yo Mama.
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110%er [9879]
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Re: I think a "your mama" joke would have represented you
Jul 17, 2018, 2:33 PM
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Yo mama’s so stupid…When thieves broke into her house and stole the TV, she chased after them shouting “Wait, you forgot the remote!”
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110%er [9879]
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Re: I think a "your mama" joke would have represented you
Jul 17, 2018, 2:33 PM
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Yo mama’s so old…She walked out of a museum and the alarm went off.
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110%er [9879]
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Re: I think a "your mama" joke would have represented you
Jul 17, 2018, 2:34 PM
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Yo mama’s so fat…Her car has stretch marks.
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All-In [36449]
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Re: I think a "your mama" joke would have represented you
Jul 19, 2018, 11:23 PM
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Yo mamas so stupid she tried to climb Mountian Dew
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CU Guru [1482]
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Re: Name one thing that Russia has done to the US in the last
Jul 16, 2018, 10:19 PM
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Cute map. Tell me, global relations expert, what's the name of this "US military base" you show in northern Kazakhstan?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Manas Air Base. Open from 2001-2014.
Jul 17, 2018, 1:51 PM
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Why?
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110%er [9879]
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Re: Manas Air Base. Open from 2001-2014.
Jul 17, 2018, 2:34 PM
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Yo mama’s so ugly…Her birth certificate is an apology letter.
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CU Guru [1482]
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Re: Manas Air Base. Open from 2001-2014.
Jul 17, 2018, 10:04 PM
[ in reply to Manas Air Base. Open from 2001-2014. ] |
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Pretty sure Manas was in the airport in Kyrgyzstan. At least it was when I was there.
Why I asked is your map and its agenda are curious, to say the least.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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You are right about Manus, it's not in Kazakhstan.
Jul 18, 2018, 11:28 AM
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The US presence in Kazakhstan is less obvious (and pronounced) than it is in Kyrgyzstan. I got my Stans mixed up AGAIN. Doh!
Kazakhstan does not lease a US base, but the US has a presence there by using Kazakh facilities, though on a small scale. These are ostensibly logistical (as far as I know) but there is a US military presence in Kazakhstan.
Conversely, there is no Russian presence in Mexico or Canada.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Name one thing that Russia has done to the US in the last
Jul 16, 2018, 10:27 PM
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I think that might be a dumber question than when you asked why is not cool in 2018 to call black people monkeys.. There was a CIA guy on Fox News today that will explain it all to to you. Google it.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Ah look, the quintessential lazy American response.
Jul 17, 2018, 2:28 PM
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In features...
1. Baseless insult that involves misleading statement.
2. Did not answer the question. (of course)
3. Instead of making any sort of argument or statement he simply referred me to "a CIA guy on Fox News today."
4. And to put the lazy cherry on the lazy sundae, instead of even summarizing the point of the "CIA guy" he simply says "Google it."
I honestly believe that by saying nothing at all, you would have looked less intellectually lazy.
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110%er [9879]
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Re: Ah look, the quintessential lazy American response.
Jul 17, 2018, 2:34 PM
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Yo mama’s so ugly…Her birth certificate is an apology letter.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Name one thing that Russia has done to the US in the last
Jul 17, 2018, 7:09 AM
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You watch a lot of Russia Today?
Russian aggression toward its neighbors and against NATO is irrelevant, huh?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Well this thread just got a trophy. There’s that.***
Jul 17, 2018, 8:01 AM
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Oculus Spirit [83017]
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IMO, they’ve never been a real threat since they removed
Jul 17, 2018, 8:31 AM
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the missiles from Cuba. Still, I’d like to be meddling in their elections not the other way around, but their elections are fixed so no hope of that.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Fair point, but I would argue the Soviets were a
Jul 17, 2018, 2:37 PM
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threat into the 70's. Though I understand that is very debatable.
At what point the US became a bigger global threat, I'm not sure. But it's clear now.
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Legend [18007]
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You really think the US is a global threat?***
Jul 17, 2018, 8:30 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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At this moment? Yes, I absolutely do.
Jul 18, 2018, 11:39 AM
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I think we did a lot to create stability, but instead of protecting that amazing establishment (that was so hard-fought) we are behaving the way every empire in world history behaves. Not knowing when to stop. Not knowing how to handle success. Our behavior after the fall of the Cold War was the result of EXACLTY what Eisenhower tried to warn everyone about back in 1961.
No one would be shocked by this if they were sufficiently familiar with world history. This isn't some Russian bot, or Alex Jones podcast. This is applying historical context.
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Legend [18007]
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Wouldn't the historical context say we'd be more aggressive?
Jul 18, 2018, 5:41 PM
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How many other countries do we currently control the government of officially?
Of the many countries we have military bases in, how many would you say we are occupying/controlling?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Thankfully, international norms force modern empires to
Jul 18, 2018, 6:03 PM
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excersize their influence much less directly and much less thoroughly. We use our massive economy as leverage, which I actually totally support as long as we are not doing anything awful. Problem is we have been abusing our leverage for awful, wreckless and overly aggressive things. This has been largely due to the military industrial complex. In the name of containing communism, we created a monster with way too much hidden power.
I would be happy with a unipolar world dominated by us if it weren’t for human nature invariably making us misbehave as a result.
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Legend [18007]
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What are the examples of us abusing this power?
Jul 18, 2018, 6:14 PM
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and compared to the historical context?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Overthrowing Iran's republic and installing a dictator?
Jul 18, 2018, 8:17 PM
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Funding terrorists in Syria and starting a war there to screw over Iran?
Convincing Ghaddafi to give up WMD pursuit and then double-cross him based on lies and completely wreck the country and allow ISIS to take over?
Expand NATO right up to Russia's borders after the fall of the Berlin Wall after we told Russia we wanted peace and did not intend to kick them when they were down?
We installed Pinochet and protected his murderous government in Chile?
We created Al Qaeda in Afghanistan to bleed the Soviets dry and then abandon the country and left them to be ruled by them?
How many more examples would you like?
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Legend [18007]
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The reason I mentioned "historical context" is that...
Jul 19, 2018, 10:23 PM
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If you look at history with lone superpowers or countries with military and economic hegemony like the United States has now is it not true that they tend to invade and colonize? I'll come back to the colonizing point in a sec, but I think you can make a strong argument that the US has been unique in its restraint when viewed through the historical context. I doubt you'll find many who agree we are a "global threat" to the rest of the world. I mean, we aren't the ones that blow passenger planes up...
But have we made mistakes? Absolutely. Have we gotten involved in policing the world and had it blow up in our face? Absolutely. Can you make an argument that we shouldn't police the rest of the world? I think that's a fair argument (it's also one I'm 50/50 on). I think the events you've pointed out don't make a strong argument for a "global threat" as much as it's an argument for poor diplomacy and foreign policy. In many of the cases you bring up we are trying to remove one threat only for another to exist, which I actually think is unavoidable. However, by not doing anything the original threat is still there so I'm not sure there is a good argument on either side of the issue.
On the issue of bases, you look at it as an aggressive maneuver towards Russia, but if that's the case, what's the ultimate goal? Isn't it more likely that we have the bases to act as a deterrent than an aggressive maneuver? How is having bases kicking Russia when they were down?
Now back to the colonizing point. I believe you mentioned somewhere else in this thread that you actually are okay with the United States using our economic weight to gain an advantage over other countries but isn't that still colonizing? (Ignore this point if it wasn't you who made the point I'm referring to or I mischaracterized your point. I can't find the post.)
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: The reason I mentioned "historical context" is that...
Jul 24, 2018, 3:14 PM
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I mean, we aren't the ones that blow passenger planes up...
You don't know enough history. We absolutely have.
https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2017/07/03/the-forgotten-us-shootdown-of-iranian-airliner-flight-655%C2%AD/
In many of the cases you bring up we are trying to remove one threat only for another to exist, which I actually think is unavoidable. However, by not doing anything the original threat is still there so I'm not sure there is a good argument on either side of the issue.
To some degree I agree, but if we are supposed to be a country founded on values, once we throw them away to meet a strategic goal, we absolutely throw away our good guy status. We are just the "not worst guy, according to us," When we overthrew an elected Republic in Iran, that was not necessary to stop communism. When we left Afghanistan to its fate after we created Al Qaeda, that was lazy. We have committed crimes that were not the lesser of two evils.
On the issue of bases, you look at it as an aggressive maneuver towards Russia, but if that's the case, what's the ultimate goal? Isn't it more likely that we have the bases to act as a deterrent than an aggressive maneuver? How is having bases kicking Russia when they were down?
Proximity. If Russia built a base in Mexico to contain our aggression, that would be ridiculous. We don't build bases on the border of a country to contain their aggression. We do so to permanently strong-arm them to never resisting our will ever again. We had no strategic interest to expand NATO. We did so for impure reasons.
Even Scowcroft regretted that we expanded NATO.
Do you regret anything in the aftermath of this period?
I’m sorry that because we were fixed on near-term goals that we didn’t think hard enough about how NATO had to change going forward. We focused on a “Europe whole and free,” but what did that mean? What did it mean to NATO to have the reason for the alliance, the glue that held it together, disappear? We never faced up to that.
What should we have done instead?
We should have asked ourselves, What are we trying to do? What are we trying to do with Russia fundamentally? What is NATO for? We are still struggling with that question. For example, what does Albania bring to NATO? You can say well, it helps us democratize Albania, but is that the job of NATO?
What do you think today’s NATO is for?
Well, that’s a very good question. We need to decide that. We wanted to anchor Eastern Europe as closely to Western Europe as possible. Now, to me, the obvious way to do that is the European Union, but the Europeans didn’t want to move that fast. So we pushed the expansion of NATO on the West Europeans, and they were so happy not to have us hector them about EU expansion that they went along with it.
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/brent-scowcroft-on-the-fall-of-the-berlin-wall
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html
Now back to the colonizing point. I believe you mentioned somewhere else in this thread that you actually are okay with the United States using our economic weight to gain an advantage over other countries but isn't that still colonizing? That's not colonizing. Depending on how you do it, it can be imperialism. We are definitely guilty of imperialism. I WOULD be ok with it if we didn't abuse it, but thanks to human nature, anyone with hegemonic power will always abuse it.
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Orange Blooded [3389]
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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The distinction of annexation is arbitrary, and NATO uses
Jul 17, 2018, 2:05 PM
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that to its advantage.
NATO got all the annexing it needed in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Now, NATO steals through imperialism.
The US is currently occupying the sovereign territory of other countries and controlling their natural resources against the will of the governments there. Just because the US doesn't make it a 51st state, does not make it less insidious.
Also, what do you know about Crimea before Russia annexed it? Demographics? History? Neo-Nazi led coup? Is that part of your opinion on the matter, or is it just annexation=bad?
BTW, Ukraine is not our neighbor last I checked. So us putting our military around them, and contributing to -pro-NATO politicians on their borders is less threatening than Russia annexing something that should be part of Russia in the first place?
We threaten them more than they threaten us.
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Orange Blooded [3389]
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Lots to unpack here, but I'll take this one first:
Jul 18, 2018, 10:01 AM
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In general, I don't pretend to be particularly well-informed about Ukraine. I did watch a Netflix documentary about the euromaidan uprising in Kiev, which was a sort of precursor to the Crimean crisis. That influenced my opinion on how political process and human rights are viewed in the region. More specifically, it forced me to begin to think about how pro-Russian & pro-European never really resolved differences as an independent nation, and how Russia leveraged that to gain a key port, in terms of increasing military and economic strength.
What the world reacted to, was that Russia did not allow Ukraine's political process to work out democratically. Rather, they systematically undermined Ukraine by fostering unrest in Kiev and Crimea. What's concerning is that you can actually see some of that same of those same Russian tactics being deployed here, in the US.
From your point of view, I guess there's some moral equivalence between this and what other European nations and the US have done in the past. We can wring our hands about that, but IMO, that still doesn't cast aside our need to confront Russia's meddling, with a full and united force of economic and diplomatic pressure, and counterintelligence.
DJT's performance in Helsinki was the antithesis of that, during a time when we are actively under threat from Russia... which is why some are calling it treasonous.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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THIS is the type of argument that we need here.
Jul 18, 2018, 11:52 AM
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Thank you for your thoughtful response.
If the Netflix documentary wasn't so misleading (if it were accurate) then I would agree with you. Documentaries are almost always propaganda. Netflix is worse than average. If you saw the one about the White-helmets, then you saw one of the most brilliantly done pieces of completely dishonest propaganda in the last 20 years.
For one, the documentary (about Ukraine) ignores the neo-nazis. Neo-nazis were fundamental to the success of the coup that took place. That is proof that the documentary has an agenda. It doesn't want people to include that important part of the story because it would not lead to the conclusions that the makers of the "documentary" want you to come away with.
Also, that Netflix documentary totally ignored the external manipulation of that situation. It is falsely presented as a black and white struggle for democracy and representation. Obviously is that were true then it is a no-brainer to support the protesters. But, it's not.
And the producer of the documentary actually defended Neo-Nazis when pressed about them during an interview. This is no surprise as the White Helmets (the other Netflix doc I mentioned) relied on Al Qaeda sympathizers and actual Al Qaeda members. Which I realize sounds completely nuts, but its true.
I think the best thing the US can do to avoid this is the future is to stop being lying hypocrites.
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Orange Blooded [3389]
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Re: THIS is the type of argument that we need here.
Jul 18, 2018, 12:52 PM
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https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4908644/
I understand that docs such as this contain a biased narrative. Still, there's value in listening to the perspective.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Did you read my response? I have seen the documentary.
Jul 18, 2018, 12:56 PM
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It is more misleading than informative for the reasons I wrote in my previous post in this thread.
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Orange Blooded [3389]
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Re: Did you read my response? I have seen the documentary.
Jul 18, 2018, 2:05 PM
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I did, I just wasn't sure that was the one you were referencing.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Roger that.***
Jul 18, 2018, 2:18 PM
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Legend [15730]
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Well, not 20 years ago but I’ll never forgive them for Apollo Creed’s death.***
Jul 17, 2018, 10:08 AM
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110%er [5508]
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Re: Well, not 20 years ago but I’ll never forgive them for Apollo Creed’s death.***
Jul 18, 2018, 11:57 AM
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Saw that in the theater...Rocky got a standing ovation when he bested Drago-only time I can recall that happening at a movie
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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So you obviously don't watch many Madea movies***
Jul 18, 2018, 12:30 PM
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Name one thing that Russia has done to the US in the last
Jul 17, 2018, 11:24 AM
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There is no doubt that we've done wrong. That is an issue that Americans really don't like looking at.
But in so far as Russia is concerned we need to look at context. After WWII the Soviet Union unilaterally took over half of Europe. They invaded Czeckoslavakia, Hungary and the Baltics.
The whole point of NATO was to stop very real Soviet Agression. That's why so many of our bases are in Europe, to protect Western Europe.
Lately Russia has annexed Crimea, invaded Ukraine and shot down a Dutch airliner.
I don't know that they're the threat they once were. But I don't think it wise to ignore history.
They're sins and our sins shouldn't be conflated. Both are very real on their own.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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If we were talking about the Soviet Union then I would agree
Jul 17, 2018, 2:33 PM
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We absolutely were the better option for the world over international communism.
It is totally understandable, in my opinion, a lot of the mistakes were made to contain communism. But now that is over, and we did not adjust. We did exactly what Athens did with the Delian league. And hopefully SOMEONE out there knows how that ended.
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CU Guru [1482]
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Re: Name one thing that Russia has done to the US in the last
Jul 20, 2018, 8:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: Name one thing that Russia has done to the US in the last ] |
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I don't know that they're the threat they once were. But I don't think it wise to ignore history.
They WEREN'T the threat they once were. After 1990, they were pretty easy to contain, and I'm proud to have played a role in that containment.
However, we have this Trump thing now. Who would've thought the Cold War would be won not with missiles, satellites, and aircraft carriers. but with Facebook memes and Completely Solid Orange's pathetic maps and ill-informed opinion?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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All the huffing and puffing from people and only ONE actual
Jul 17, 2018, 2:00 PM
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response. People sound so confident that my post is crazy and delusional, but the have no real, specific reason to. Just regurgitation from spoon-fed narrative.
ATLOrange was the ONLY person who even attempted a specific response to the question. I will respond to his post because at least it is a legitimate answer, though I strongly disagree with it.
All of you can't see the obvious sign of brainwashing? You can't specifically engage in details here. You just make vague responses and are hopeless to actually understand why things happen the way they do because you are unwilling to even try. You are comfortable with your assumptions and lash out at anything outside the comfy box.
How do you argue with baseless generalizations? How do you convince a person to question their assumptions if they are not even willing to look beyond the american-centric political narratives?
So much ironic behavior in this thread. Such low standards for certifying opinions.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Jeebus dude.***
Jul 17, 2018, 2:04 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Let me know if you ever stumble upon an idea with substance.
Jul 17, 2018, 2:12 PM
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I think you may able to bust a grape in this thread at that point. Till then.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Here was your OP
Jul 17, 2018, 2:36 PM
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Name one thing that Russia has done to the US in the last [7]
20 years that is more aggressive than the US steadily moving our military closer to their borders. And why do so many seemingly rationally people completely ignore this massive clue that there might be something wrong with the Russia-is-evil narrative?
So what is the answer? Don't ignore it. Don't avoid it. Answer it.
Not election meddling. We do worse.
Not invading other countries. We do it more often and at 20x greater human cost.
Russia being an evil aggressor is a politically useful narrative. It is not reality. Logic, history and critical thinking can easily disabuse people of the spoon-fed assumption.
The military industrial complex needs Americans to believe in bogeymen. Stop letting mainstream american political narratives define your world-view.
=====================
You've claimed the US is worse than Russia because we meddle in elections and have invaded other countries. No context is provided. You don't really need to source the claims, because, "Yes the US has invaded countries"
You end with an appeal to resist the "bogeymen" the military industrial complex needs us to fear.
And then a meme that I guess is supposed to be the conclusion or punchline to your post? When called out about the validity of the map or on the lack of context given, you bust an O ring and say it's not the point?
You've lost me. And likely yourself.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Here we go...
Jul 17, 2018, 7:10 PM
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You've claimed the US is worse than Russia because we meddle in elections and have invaded other countries.
Reading comprehension fail. Never said we are worse than them. I used the word worse to describe our higher level of election meddling. I did not say we are comprehensively worse than them in any holistic way. I also said we are a bigger threat to them than they are to us, and that we are more aggressive towards them than they are to us. Anyone who argues against that is either ignorant or delusional.
No context is provided.
This is either dishonest or painfully stupid.
As I have done several times, I have cited specific reasons for this, which should be obvious to everyone. We are responsible for more wars, death and destruction by an exponential margin. We are encroaching on their sovereignty far more than they us. We have manipulated the domestic politics of other countries far more than Russia. There are at least a dozen posts on this topic from me with citations for every fact that was challenged. I can do it again for you if you need repetition. The important thing to take away here is you are comically wrong here again.
And then a meme that I guess is supposed to be the conclusion or punchline to your post? When called out about the validity of the map or on the lack of context given, you bust an O ring and say it's not the point?
LOL You are like a giant liar built in a lab from the parts of smaller liars. First, anyone who disputes the map is embarrassing themselves. Anyone with a passing knowledge of US deployment knows that there are forward deployments actually missing from the map as its a bit aged. Anyone who cares to dispute a base location could easily Google their stupid away. Calling my response "blowing an o-ring" makes you sound like a giant tampon. What was so wild about it? Snowflake, something something. The fact I used such terrible language and said "what on Earth?" You need to quit looking for secondary BS to distract from your lack of substance. Make yourself more knowledgeable and you won't need so many obvious smoke and mirrors.
And before you go back to your well of teenager "one-liner" responses aimed at de-legitimizing someone, I'm perfectly happy writing the post. It's like I'm listening to a John Denver song or something. 
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110%er [9879]
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Legend [16227]
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CU Medallion [55664]
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Legend [16227]
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Personally I've had nothing against Russia or Russian
Jul 17, 2018, 9:53 PM
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people at any point in my lifetime, I don't think, to feel any sort of hostility towards them, and I'm a Cold War baby. I enjoyed beating them in hockey in 1980 - they were the enemy and our biggest rival and we were the underdogs - awesome! But beyond that, I enjoy their art, lit, and drink. I've never really felt a fear of being bombed or nuc-sploded, not here in the heart of South Carolina anyway.
From my understanding, Truman first screwed over Russia, reneging on FDR's deal with Stalin for post-war relations once the war ended, which pretty much got Cold War I started. We weren't going to build a unified military alliance with European countries (ultimately NATO) to border off Russia, and the Soviets were going to withdraw and go back home. Truman pushed forward anyway, the Russkies dug in.
No doubt the US has done some super shady stuff in foreign lands, and our primary military strategy that we hatched in WWII - bomb the #### out of them - is a tactic we have used with horrendous casualty numbers thousands of miles away from our home on a regular and routine basis leading up to today. If you look into who profits the most from this activity, as you have, it is pretty unsettling. As is us allowing it.
The timing sucks most of all right now with normalizing relations with Russia due in large part to Donald Trump's innate huckster PR and communication strategy. Blunt is one thing. Oafish is another. I doubt any substantive crimes were committed from a campaign standpoint during the election but for the love of all that is holy his defensive, deflective victim card performances - every day - causes rational people to lose faith and wonder what smells so much back there that you have to keep whipping your arms in such a frenzy all the time.
After 1990 I really thought Russia, and its people, were going to let down their guard and blossom out into something in the world with their abundant energy and agricultural resources, plus their drive to boot. Instead we expanded NATO again, building an even tighter and larger ring. And here we are again.
There is this, though. If Russia is just a big, misunderstood world cousin that we're being stupid and big meanies to all this time, why in the WORLD would Trump, at the same time, resort back to the isolation of and sanctions on Cuba, which had been opened up already, a country that has also done absolutely nothing to harm the US since Fidel got the best of us over 50 years ago (got the best = didn't die), save for that ear thing recently with the diplomats, but that was after Trump had already turned the tide.
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Orange Blooded [4974]
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Re: Personally I've had nothing against Russia or Russian
Jul 17, 2018, 11:12 PM
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Why the lost opportunities and new baffling moves? That is from the true deep world. The new world order pushers.
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Legend [16227]
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By 'true deep world' I think you just mean the 'rich and
Jul 18, 2018, 12:53 PM
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powerful' who have premium access to the process and can afford to buy loyalty and fealty at key positions, in pretty much any system.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Excellent post. Thanks for your contribution.
Jul 18, 2018, 11:34 AM
[ in reply to Personally I've had nothing against Russia or Russian ] |
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There is this, though. If Russia is just a big, misunderstood world cousin that we're being stupid and big meanies to all this time, why in the WORLD would Trump, at the same time, resort back to the isolation of and sanctions on Cuba, which had been opened up already, a country that has also done absolutely nothing to harm the US since Fidel got the best of us over 50 years ago (got the best = didn't die), save for that ear thing recently with the diplomats, but that was after Trump had already turned the tide.
Electoral college points from Florida, VIA the cuban population who hates Castro. Same reason a "pro-business" guy is throwing dangerous tariffs around. Except those electoral points are in Michigan/Greatlakes.
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110%er [6101]
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#### fine post from someone with insight.
Jul 18, 2018, 6:44 AM
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Cheers
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Name one thing that Russia has done to the US in the last
Jul 19, 2018, 1:58 PM
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I really think it comes down to why would anyone ever debate you? First of all, you're long winded. Secondly, dude you argued for days why it is cool for you to call black people monkeys. Why would any rational educated person have a conversation with you?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Aw... you seem sad. Can't hang huh?
Jul 19, 2018, 2:11 PM
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Lots of people here have made great contributions. But then again, they actually have something to say of actual substance. I'm sorry that you never do. I'd help you if I could, but it's sort of up to you to learn... something or anything.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Aw... you seem sad. Can't hang huh?
Jul 19, 2018, 10:38 PM
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Long story short, you're a conspiracy driven moron. You're an idiot. You are jam packed with idiotic nonsense. You see angles that do not exist, yet you think you see the light. No what is really going on is that you are insane. Just letting you know. No matter what you think, that is reality.
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All-In [34100]
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Where's this monkeys thread?***
Jul 19, 2018, 11:07 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Here...
Jul 24, 2018, 3:30 PM
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He was making the case that Apes being used pejoratively applied specifically/especially to black people and that it is worse to call a black person one than to call anyone else that. I told him I disagreed based on historical context and asked him to explain why he thought that was the case. He freaked out and started insulting like he does when he becomes uncomfortable. He eventually answered after being cornered.
Here was my argument.
Are you not aware that "Ape" has been used to insult individuals/groups of every race before during and since the African Slave Trade all over the world?
It's not a special African American thing. You can't canvass every single thing that was used to scientifically justify racism at any point in human history and then simply declare the it applies especially to one group.
That is parochialism. You seem to have gathered information in a narrow channel. You really need to learn some non-US history so you stop with this small window of knowledge.
Comparing people (yes races) to monkeys and apes happened in every continent on earth. Freaking white people in Europe (called barbarians) were judged as subhuman by greeks and Romans. India, China, Russia... Japan... EVERYWHERE.
https://www.tigernet.com/forum/message/Re-I-think-youre-just-dumbing-it-down-to-the-lowest-level-23567109
Yet, he states I "argued for days why it is cool for you to call black people monkeys."
So as you can see, apart from being very shallow in his reasoning and throwing tantrums when he gets fussy, he's also disingenuous. Such are the tactics of the highly opinionated yet poorly educated.
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