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Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....
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Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 6:04 AM

and New Spring Bagmen, etc. I'm new to Tigernet. It looks like there is no way around football being a dangerous and potentially life altering sport. According to the prelimary evidence, this sport gets worse the longer you play and the higher levels you play it at. The most recent study suggests that concussions have little to do with CTE and that the disease is spurned by repetitive head trauma. Therefore, football is an inherently disease producing sport. In light of this evidence, is it morally wrong or a "sin" to not only watch football, but to coach it? What level of CTE is acceptable for our student athletes?

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Why stop at football?


Jan 26, 2018, 6:20 AM

You’ve read to many headlines and not dig deep for yourself.
http://m.startribune.com/more-dangerous-than-football-girls-soccer-concussion-fears-blur-state-championship-week-buzz/454514113/

Lots of things are dangerous in this world but that doesn’t mean they are evil are to be loathed. The most dangerous thing you will likely do today is get into your car and drive away yet you do it, and probably let your teenage child do it too....

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Re: Why stop at football?


Jan 26, 2018, 6:30 AM

Your article, again, cites concussions. The new evidence says that concussions are not the cause of CTE, but just your ordinary repitive hits to the head.

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Research your "studies"


Jan 26, 2018, 7:23 AM

Several, especially the most quoted today, that are pushing the high percentage of CTE in football is fatally flawed.

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"Fatally flawed?" How so?***


Jan 26, 2018, 8:14 AM



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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Re: Research your "studies"


Jan 26, 2018, 8:17 AM [ in reply to Research your "studies" ]

This is the video that I came across https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwrVLaT9Si0

Which study is fatally flawed?

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Try to pay attention. It is logical to suggest that if


Jan 26, 2018, 8:14 AM [ in reply to Re: Why stop at football? ]

hitting a soccer ball with your head leads to concussions, then there are repetitive hits to the head in soccer too. The study you are referencing is talking about sub concussive hits. There are lots of those in many sports, with football probably being the worst offender but soccer is probably not too far behind.

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Re: Try to pay attention. It is logical to suggest that if


Jan 26, 2018, 8:31 AM

I'm trying to pay attention. You are offering a non-sequitur to my original question by offering a relativist position on the ethics of heading a soccer ball. Maybe both are morally wrong?

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I don't trust you. There, I said it.***


Jan 26, 2018, 8:52 AM



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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Re: Why stop at football?


Jan 26, 2018, 8:13 PM [ in reply to Re: Why stop at football? ]

In other words, they don't know!

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Re: Why stop at football?


Jan 26, 2018, 6:41 AM [ in reply to Why stop at football? ]

And people smoke and drink but worry about being attacked by terrorists. The human psyche is truly irrational.

But one day, I’m gonna hit that powerball! I don’t care what the odds are!

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Re: Why stop at football?


Jan 26, 2018, 8:43 AM

Lol. Goodluck at the powerball. My question though it simple is it morally wrong or a "sin" to watch or coach football if it causes brain damage. To use your example, it is probably morally wrong or a sin to sell cigarettes to people, because it is a causative factor for lung cancer.

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To your point


Jan 26, 2018, 9:15 AM

"To use your example, it is probably morally wrong or a sin to sell cigarettes to people, because it is a causative factor for lung cancer."

I believe there are many that would argue against that point, with the chief argument against that being that those involved in purchasing cigarettes know the danger they are entering into and are making a conscious choice to engage in that behavior which by and large effects only their health. I suppose there is a valid counter argument as to the second hand effects of cigarette smoke, but that would be an issue with how(where) the product is used and not the purchase/use of the product itself.

There are some who would argue that it is not morally wrong to provide products to adults who want those products and who are consciously making the choice to engage in what is a known unhealthy activity.

Now where I see that argument failing to line up against your initial example of football would be that football is seen as a path to success/fame by folks some subset of players who may feel they have little other realistic paths to those things. In that case it could be seen that the teenagers engaged in football to reach that end are not doing so out of truly free choice, but rather out of a societal condition which pushes them into a dangerous activity.

I'm not sure we have enough information from a scientific standpoint (more studies are being done, and the breadth of damage, if it exists will be made known) to make a sweeping "it is wrong to facilitate individuals playing a dangerous sport" assertion. But that day may well arrive.

I'd imagine, like in most things, what will happen will be somewhere in the middle. I'd guess that the sport will evolve to a less violent version of itself, with less focus on the "big hits" and more focus on speed and finesse, and that will be seen by some as a bad step, but by others as a necessary one if we are to enjoy the game without guilt consciences.

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Re: To your point


Jan 26, 2018, 9:31 AM

Best response so far. Thank you for the effort. It has been very difficult for me to understand the dynamics at play with these questions. It seems that football offers so many good things for society, beyond being enjoyable to watch. But, at what point, is it coercive by society encouraging youngsters to participate in a sport without an understanding of the true risks at play.

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The main purpose of government is to save me from myself.


Jan 26, 2018, 8:57 PM [ in reply to To your point ]

Everybody knows that.

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"Anybody that says Coach Brownell is the best coach to come through Clemson is going to start an argument." -JP Hall


Re: Why stop at football?


Jan 26, 2018, 9:04 PM [ in reply to Re: Why stop at football? ]

A sin ? Morally wrong ?


Are you dain bramaged ? If not , may I suggest the use of a helmet in your own life ? Seems like you may be teetering on the edge .

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DB23


I think the point is, if someone actually wants to play


Jan 26, 2018, 8:17 AM [ in reply to Why stop at football? ]

soccer, then they don't actually have a brain that can be hurt. Because, well...soccer.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Re: I think the point is, if someone actually wants to play


Jan 26, 2018, 8:37 AM

Dag'um communist sport ;)

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I think the question is: are you a


Jan 26, 2018, 8:45 AM [ in reply to I think the point is, if someone actually wants to play ]

thinker, thoelogian, philosopher, or New Spring bagman?

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Aspiring member of the TigerNet Sewer Dwellers


Re: I think the question is: are you a


Jan 26, 2018, 8:48 AM

2/4

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So you collect the tithes and then distribute them?


Jan 26, 2018, 8:54 AM

.

2024 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-classof1994.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


It certainly appears that Philo_TIGER absconded with the


Jan 26, 2018, 9:04 AM

"tithes" meant for Zion's family.

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Aspiring member of the TigerNet Sewer Dwellers


Re: Why stop at football?


Jan 26, 2018, 9:06 AM [ in reply to Why stop at football? ]

And wresting

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Re: Why stop at football?


Jan 26, 2018, 9:16 AM

Is wrestling still a sport at Clemson or did it get dropped with Title 9

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Interesting question


Jan 26, 2018, 6:33 AM

Honestly, it probably is. Everyone gets to make their own life choices though. Some people probably think CTE won’t happen to them. Some probably think it’s a hoax. Some, like me, will have a choice to make for our kids.

On a different note, I’m on the record many times here saying football will lose favor in the near future due to CTE. The evidence of the problem becomes more damning with every study and I have to think that the talent pool will get smaller and smaller to the point where the game is a shell of its current self.

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Re: Interesting question


Jan 26, 2018, 8:35 AM

So far you are the first person to answer my question. Thank you. I think if it is unethical to let our kids play, then it is probably morally wrong to watch someone elses?

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Morally speaking, yes


Jan 26, 2018, 12:52 PM

I had determined many years ago that CTE was far more prevalent than thought after hearing about guys that only played up through high school having the disease. Yeah, high school kids, where the hits are a lot less violent.

I'm still going to watch football though.

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Re: Interesting question


Jan 26, 2018, 9:09 AM [ in reply to Interesting question ]

As long as people will pay money there will be football

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Re: Interesting question


Jan 26, 2018, 9:14 AM

So the free-market decides whether it is morally permissible. A more libertarian approach to ethics.

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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 6:50 AM

As a very young kid I would say from about 12, I found that fist fighting was exciting and competitive for me and thousands of others that liked it as much as I did. I have taken more than my share of pretty hard punches to the head, but that was the best competitive part of fighting, taking that punch and winning the fight. I also loved motor cross racing and those motor cycles have slammed me to the ground and on my head, and at 65 I seem to be doing okay, and I have been knocked out 10 to 12 times in my life. I believe 100% what happens to us is determine by our DNA with no one having the same....

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Yoh bro, did you get dropped on your head too?


Jan 26, 2018, 7:09 AM

My first knockout was at six. I was riding a bike after dark and challenged a car. My next was at the public gym in West Palm Beach. I was a bit bulky from lifting for a few months and got matched with a kid who had three inches of reach on me. I tried to get inside but he held me off with his jab. When I stepped to his left I lowered my brow and noticed his hip rotating.

I tried to cover the side of my head with my left but I felt the blow before my glove reached my brow. I only fell about 2 1/2 feet. The mat met me about half way down.

I enjoyed boxing too. Perhaps both of us were dropped on our heads.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpgringofhonor-clemsontiger1988-110.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

TU for dope boxing skills at pre-teen years***


Jan 26, 2018, 7:18 AM



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I credit that all to Mike.


Jan 26, 2018, 7:27 AM

He was my 'Mick.' That was my first sparing in my only summer of boxing and the last time they matched me with that tall kid. I went back to fighting only as a defensive mechanism.

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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 8:44 AM [ in reply to Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, .... ]

So you think genetics is heavily at play with who will or will not develop the disease?

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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 27, 2018, 8:19 AM

> So you think genetics is heavily at play with who
> will or will not develop the disease?

Absolutely. Otherwise the majority of players would have it. There has to be a genetic factor that makes certain people more susceptible. It's like with diabetes. The biggest risk factor is family history not obesity.

I was personally acquainted with many of the Clemson players of the '49-'51 Tigers (Tweet Poe, Tom Barton, Fred Cone, Phil Prince, Jack Brunson, Gil Rushton, Pete Manus, & others) and can tell you none of them had effects of CTE. And those guys played with vastly inferior equipment and were vicious hitters

And IMO the answer is no. Watching football is not immoral or unethical IMO.

But while we're at it throw rodeo into the mix.

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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 7:21 AM

Obviously, the answer to your first question depends on the answer to your second question. There is risk in everything; how much is acceptable? We won't have an accurate estimate of that risk level any time soon, so any decisions will likely be made in a very data-starved environment.

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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 8:46 AM

Agree. "Time will tell" just how many people are afflicted by the disease and how many hits is too many for stage 1 of the disease.

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Let's look at the big picture.


Jan 26, 2018, 7:24 AM

I don't know if you've ever worked around old craftsmen. I'v worked around welders, carpenters, painters, cabinet maker, plumbers, millwrights, machinist and aged men of just about any craft. As a percentage these men have more vocational related physical issue than pro football players.

Check the stats.

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Re: Let's look at the big picture.


Jan 26, 2018, 8:22 AM

Yeah, I agree, many professions are dangerous. But, my question is more geared at: is football a sin to watch or coach? From a relativistic standpoint it may be morally wrong to participate in certain professions. I think it is important to note though, that college football players and kids playing football are not professionals.

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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 7:47 AM

The sport that is most likely to lead to traumatic brain damage is girls soccer according to data published by USA Today. I still support it at the high level I always have though.

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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 8:38 AM

Link to that study I can't find it?

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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 7:47 AM

Hi Philo,
Sounds like you have a "cause" and can make it your life's work to ban football from this earth. Go for it.

While you are at it consider the health damage from smoking tobacco. Yet tobacco has not been banned. Same issue for alcohol.

What about processed sugar. It has cause obesity in most Americans. It is linked to cancer growth and evidence shows a link to numerous other health concerns such as diabetes.

Other posters have mentioned cars and the dangers of driving.

When you study the Bible, we learn of a fallen world. God took us away from a perfect life in a garden when we sinned against Him. Should we ban God since he put us in this fallen world with its many dangers and challenges. God lets us know that he has made a path back another perfect place called heaven but we must accept the forgiveness that he freely gives. You might want to focus your thoughts on heaven and what it might be like rather make your life's work about banning football. I am sure it will be healthier for you in eternity.

I hope this helps with your thinking.

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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 8:58 AM

My life's work is not about banning football. I just asked a few simple questions regarding the new evidence related to CTE. As science paves more information, will it change our moral landscape toward football?

You never replied as whether or not it is morally wrong or a sin?

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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 8:19 AM

I really won't argue the studies on CTE with any sport..

I will speculate more people die in the US from the flu in one month than have ever met their demise due to CTE...

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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 9:10 AM

Yeah. I think the development of disorders is also tied to the disease. Depression, behavioral changes related to anger, etc. Not just death. We have vaccines that try to prevent influenza. We promote football and to some extent soccer.

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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 8:21 AM

Have you ever met an old brick mason? They likely have multiple disorders from years of repetitive motion plus back problems. How about an old carpenter who is missing a finger? Does this make it a sin to live in a house?

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I think that there is a level within us all of ...


Jan 26, 2018, 8:34 AM

enjoyment versus risk. Hunting is dangerous. You may get shot by another hunter, fall out a tree stand, get bitten, by a rattler, or break a leg in a fall on dangerous ground, but hunters enjoy it and take the risks in stride. Skydiving is extremely dangerous, but people derive pleasure from it. Car racing is an extremely dangerous sport, but many of us watch it. Boxing is potentially the most dangerous sport, but again, many people love to watch it.
I played football for seven years in Little League and High School. In that period I had three concussions, both shoulders dislocated, two broken ribs, a dislocated hip, a sprained knee, multiple sprained ankles, and multiple dislocated fingers. I loved it, especially the hitting(the feeling of dominance over another individual), the mental aspect of guessing right or making a perfect play, and the physical aspect of making my body do thing that it simply wasn't designed for. I would have continued, but I knew I wasn't good enough after playing against some great players.
I did not push my son to play and he didn't. He had no love for the game.

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No.***


Jan 26, 2018, 8:42 AM



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"No" is a perfectly exceptable answer***


Jan 26, 2018, 8:44 AM



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Aspiring member of the TigerNet Sewer Dwellers


The only answer really.***


Jan 26, 2018, 9:10 AM



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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 8:49 AM

No

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March 4th 2016- "Lee won't be here 4 years from today" - Viztiz


As humans we must have some quality of life...


Jan 26, 2018, 8:49 AM

We can't live in a bubble and not take risks. I believe the social impact of banning contact sports would be much more detrimental than the physical consequences.

With that said I wouldn't push my child to play football, but I wouldn't deny him the opportunity either.

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Re: As humans we must have some quality of life...


Jan 26, 2018, 9:03 AM

Interesting. Censuring contact sports would have effects. Kind of a question of big/small government.

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I’ll throw out a “no” to “inherently morally wrong”.


Jan 26, 2018, 9:06 AM

To say it’s mirally inherently wrong, to me, implies that anything that could produce any injury is to be avoided in life. Nearly every blue collar job results in aches, pains, bad backs later in life. There are all sorts of ailments attributed to sitting in an office all day, typing on a keyboard and staring at a screen.

The absolute truth is that many NFL stars would never have made more than a blue collar wage if not for the sport of football. It has allowed them to set up their families for generations if they are smart about it. Is it morally right to take that option away from them? What percentage of them would have ailments from the jobs they would have had if not for football?

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null


Re: I’ll throw out a “no” to “inherently morally wrong”.


Jan 26, 2018, 9:27 AM

You seem to be leaning more to the libertarian approach as well - that the free-market of ideas will prevail and decide what is moral and ethical. I tend to agree with you that a person is "free-to-choose" therefore expressing his agency of free-will to play/coach football. But, at the same time, Clemson Football is a state-sponsored activity where it is illegal for players to be compensated. Obviously, paying players opens them up to workers compensation claims, which will even more muddy the waters.

Yes, you're right, many people endure medical hardships because of the ergonomics of their jobs. It just seems intuitively that brain injuries are more severe than back injuries. Maybe that is just me.

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Well no, I’m not saying that the free market will


Jan 26, 2018, 10:26 AM

decide what is morally right or wrong...nor do I believe that is true. I’m saying I don’t think it’s morally wrong.

Your response really broadens the question. You introduced political philosophy, free will, amateurism, and a whole bunch of practical issues not considered in your original post.

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null


Re: I’ll throw out a “no” to “inherently morally wrong”.


Jan 26, 2018, 1:38 PM [ in reply to I’ll throw out a “no” to “inherently morally wrong”. ]

I love football...but the argument about players setting up their families and climbing out of poverty just don't ring the bell for me. That is really no different than saying that families of poor construction workers from the Indian sub-continent are better off because they went to Dubai and died to help build tall buildings for the enjoyment of a few Sheikhs.

Again, I love football...but if you REALLY want to help those in poverty climb out of poverty, invest as much time/money as we do on football on educational resources in those communities. For every kid who makes it in the NFL (NBA, etc), there are 100 more who have to take their (mostly) worthless college degree and somehow scratch make a living.

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So again, this conversation is moving past the


Jan 27, 2018, 8:50 AM

question of “inherent morality” to “social policy”. And I admit I’m partly to blame for introducing the financial benefits of nfl stars.

So to re-center- my position is that coaching or watching a game that can lead to disease or injury is not inherently morally wrong, and that it is basically a part of the human experience to engage in work, hobbies, activities that take a tool on our minds and bodies. Everything else in my post is beside the point.

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null


Go back to leather helmets and players would not play as reckless


Jan 26, 2018, 9:18 AM

Running causes heart attacks. People wreck cars. Gun argument... Processed foods cause cancer. Treated water has cancer causing agents. On and on and on. I don't think playing a sport is sinning because a few people have soft brains

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i'm a critical thinker and philosophizer


Jan 26, 2018, 9:31 AM

this hole poast blows

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 9:38 AM

The Bible says in Genesis 3:19, "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

We will all be on this Earth but for only a short time. We should enjoy living life while we're here to the glory of God and rest easy knowing our physical bodies on this Earth will stay on this Earth and we will have new bodies once we get to Heaven.

What I'm saying is that if people enjoy playing sports, they should play sports and enjoy doing so. Taking proper precautions is smart, but don't stay home and become a couch potato to play it safe because that will only lead to cardiovascular disease and kill you too.




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Are you judging folks?


Jan 26, 2018, 9:45 AM

#notgood

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 10:34 AM

I love football and would miss it dearly, but if it went away or were banned tomorrow, I have plenty of other things to entertain me.

I am already on board with those who want to ban tackle football until high school age...same with headers in soccer.

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My suggestion is make your departure now


Jan 26, 2018, 5:13 PM

while you're still ahead.

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Re: Questions for the Thinkers, Thoelogians, Philosophers, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 8:11 PM

Well if, as the study says, CTE is caused by an accumulation of lesser blows, I'm going to have to find a way of reacting to Trump other than my two-a-day face-palms.

Wish you'd told me this a year ago.

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^^^^Didn't know we had so many Thinkers, Theologians, ....


Jan 26, 2018, 8:53 PM

and Philosophers on T-Net. I'm really impressed. ( But you notice I didn't provide any thoughts on the subject.)

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