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Replies: 201
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Rock Defender [53]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Thank God.***
Mar 11, 2016, 12:53 PM
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Hall of Famer [24767]
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+1...***
Mar 11, 2016, 2:22 PM
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study
Mar 11, 2016, 12:54 PM
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This isn't news to people that attend church regularly....
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study
Mar 11, 2016, 12:56 PM
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That's crazy that that many people are just simply misinformed...
It takes more faith to NOT believe than to believe in God...
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Rock Defender [53]
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Citation needed.***
Mar 11, 2016, 12:56 PM
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Seems like a clever marketing strategy.***
Mar 11, 2016, 1:00 PM
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CU Medallion [54758]
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also seems like a "results not typical" type sitch
Mar 11, 2016, 1:55 PM
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like Weight Watchers or something
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Heisman Winner [119702]
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Rock Defender [53]
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lol!***
Mar 11, 2016, 2:11 PM
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Heisman Winner [137915]
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Rock Defender [53]
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If it's a numbers game, 1.6 billion Muslims can't be wrong.***
Mar 11, 2016, 1:00 PM
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: If it's a numbers game, 1.6 billion Muslims can't be wrong.***
Mar 11, 2016, 1:06 PM
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The gospels of Jesus were written by people that witnessed what they wrote about and were eventually killed for it, some in brutal fashion.
The first copy of the Koran was written half a century after Muhammed lived.
People will die because they believe in something, but nobody will die over something they know isn't true and if Jesus was not who he said he was his disciples would have known.
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Heisman Winner [137915]
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What if Jesus was actually just
Mar 11, 2016, 1:08 PM
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prehistoric David Copperfield, and really good at large-scale magic tricks?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: If it's a numbers game, 1.6 billion Muslims can't be wrong.***
Mar 11, 2016, 1:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: If it's a numbers game, 1.6 billion Muslims can't be wrong.*** ] |
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How do you know these are genuine accounts? Other than simply believing what the bible says (i.e. faith) what corroborating evidence that these people even existed much less actually saw the things they claim?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: If it's a numbers game, 1.6 billion Muslims can't be wrong.***
Mar 11, 2016, 1:17 PM
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Copies of the original gospels can be traced to within years after Jesus's death.
There is more proof for the gospels than any historical document out there....
This was written by the same atheist, he interviews professors and archaeologist and there is overwhelming evidence that the gospels were written by people that walked and died for Jesus.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Christ-Journalists-Investigation/dp/0310339308
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Oculus Spirit [81897]
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All-In [38514]
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: wut?
Mar 11, 2016, 1:20 PM
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You're wrong and actually I was too....
I meant to say the first copy of the Koran can only be dated back to several hundred years after Muhammed supposedly lived. That is a fact.
The gospels have been dated to within a few decades after Jesus lived....
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All-In [38514]
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A few decades is closer to half a century.
Mar 11, 2016, 1:24 PM
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Why wait to document such a great story?
Wasn't much of the New Testament 50 or more years?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: A few decades is closer to half a century.
Mar 11, 2016, 1:28 PM
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Jesus died around 33 A.D.
The gospels can be dated back to between 65-90 A.D.
Keep in mind we're talking about the first century here. Matthew or Mark couldn't just go jump on their laptop and have an article all over the planet within a couple days.
Every argument against the authenticity of the gospels can be applied to any historical document.
If you don't believe in them, you shouldn't believe anything you read in your 7th grade history book either.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: A few decades is closer to half a century.
Mar 11, 2016, 1:34 PM
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Ok but I mean we are talking about the supposed God of the universe here, creator of all things. Don't you think there could be a better way of letting people know about the story besides relying on people to write it down and share it (not to mention the contradictions in their stories)? Seems extremely inefficient to me when eternity is on the line. Were the people that died before the bible was finished just screwed?
Pretty simple questions like that poke big holes in the whole religion thing.
> Every argument against the authenticity of the gospels ca n be applied to any historical document.
> If you don't believe in them, you shouldn't believe anything you read in your 7th grade history book either.
If that's true then the same can be applied to the Quran no?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: A few decades is closer to half a century.
Mar 11, 2016, 1:41 PM
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Like I said, the Koran was written hundreds of years after Muhammad lived and the writers weren't beheaded for something they would have absolutely known wasn't true...
The difference in a muslim flying an airplane into a building for their faith and the writers of the gospel is that they walked with Jesus and saw his miracles. Do you think if it was a big hoax they would have died for it?
I think God does show himself to us, we just refuse to see it. It also makes sense that he gives us the choice whether or not to follow him.
Did you force your wife to marry you? No, she loved you and wanted to marry you. She had a choice in the matter. You don't want a wife that is forced to live and raise children with you.
If God made us all love him we'd be nothing but a bunch of captive robots...
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: A few decades is closer to half a century.
Mar 11, 2016, 1:45 PM
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> Like I said, the Koran was written hundreds of years after Muhammad lived and the writers weren't beheaded for something they would have absolutely known wasn't true...
I guess i'll have to take your word for it.
> The difference in a muslim flying an airplane into a building for their faith and the writers of the gospel is that they walked with Jesus and saw his miracles. Do you think if it was a big hoax they would have died for it?
I don't have any reason to think the story is true at all.
> I think God does show himself to us, we just refuse to see it. It also makes sense that he gives us the choice whether or not to follow him.
Awful convenient no? Would you, as a father, not clearly show yourself to your children especially if eternal hellfire was on the line?
> Did you force your wife to marry you? No, she loved you and wanted to marry you. She had a choice in the matter. You don't want a wife that is forced to live and raise children with you.
I've also never had reason to doubt my wife even existed. I can clearly see and interact with her. I think you have to establish that someone exists before attempting a relationship.
> If God made us all love him we'd be nothing but a bunch of captive robots...
Ok sure but again, let's establish that he exists in the first place before making such claims.
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All-In [38514]
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So because something is written in a book, it's 100% true?
Mar 11, 2016, 1:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: A few decades is closer to half a century. ] |
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The Koran is a book, so it must be true.
Shouldn't we be skeptical of everything we read?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: So because something is written in a book, it's 100% true?
Mar 11, 2016, 1:42 PM
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Wouldn't knowing that the author of a book wrote it knowing that they would soon be beheaded or crucified for it make you believe it that much more?
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All-In [38514]
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Not really.
Mar 11, 2016, 1:57 PM
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Other religious writers have been persecuted or killed. So you believe in Paganism too?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Not really.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:16 PM
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You're right, but how many of them saw with their own eyes what they were being killed over?
Would you die for over a prank?
This is what gets me about people that won't believe in God and Jesus because it's so far fetched.
You'll believe things that are even more outrageous like evolution or in this case that all these people would become martyrs over something that AGAIN, they would have known was a lie.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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"...things that are even more outrageous like evolution..."
Mar 11, 2016, 2:22 PM
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: "...things that are even more outrageous like evolution..."
Mar 11, 2016, 2:41 PM
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There is a better chance of a tornado ripping through a junkyard and leaving behind a perfectly assembled automobile than for the process of evolution to even BEGIN to occur.....
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CU Medallion [54758]
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oh, sorry...didn't realize you were meteoranthropiologist
Mar 11, 2016, 2:45 PM
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butt for reals, you DO realize that what you said is ridiculous, right? Is this a dedicated troll?? If so, I can respect that.
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Heisman Winner [137915]
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You think evolution is outrageous?
Mar 11, 2016, 2:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: Not really. ] |
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Bruh...even the Catholic church has accepted evolution.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: You think evolution is outrageous?
Mar 11, 2016, 2:53 PM
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The author of evolution himself didn't even accept it.....
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You think evolution is outrageous?***
Mar 11, 2016, 4:43 PM
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Oculus Spirit [81897]
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-In [38514]
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Your atheism towards every other religion is no
Mar 11, 2016, 4:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: Not really. ] |
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different than my lack of belief in yours. At least I'm consistent.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Your atheism towards every other religion is no
Mar 11, 2016, 6:54 PM
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Islam is based on a prophet that did nothing but dwell in a cave and write....does that sound like something to believe in?
Judaism is still waiting on the Messiah, even though Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies of the Old Testament....not only that but we have historical documents that we can trace all the way back to people that were alive and witnessed the ministry and miracles of Jesus and eventually died for it.
Like I said, my faith isn't based on fact but I can be sure my faith has been well placed based on the facts....
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Your atheism towards every other religion is no
Mar 12, 2016, 10:28 AM
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Think about this. Let's say Islam is correct. That means you and I are going to hell for eternity according to islam.
Now. Think for a minute how little time you've considered this fact and how 100% sure you are that Islam is a bunch of BS. That is EXACTLY how Christianity is viewed by someone who hasn't been indoctrinated by it.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Your atheism towards every other religion is no
Mar 12, 2016, 12:57 PM
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It's pretty easy to cast doubt on Islam using your own arguments against Christianity.
If you're going by archaeological and historical evidence, Christianity wins hands down and it's not even close.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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All-In [38514]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study
Mar 11, 2016, 1:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study ] |
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Misinformed? Where is the proof of God?
Seriously, one empirical verifiable piece of evidence would be nice. If you don't have that, how can you make you make such a statement: "It takes more faith to NOT believe than to believe in God... ".
If you DO have that evidence, please do share.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study
Mar 11, 2016, 1:13 PM
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Read the book I linked to and you'll find plenty....
Do you realize that there's a better chance of a tornado whipping through a junkyard and leaving behind a perfectly assembled corvette than for everything to fall into place for evolution to occur?
Did you know that if the earth was tilted ONE degree either way on its axis or if the moon wasn't on the exact course orbiting the earth that it's on that life wouldn't exist?
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All-In [38514]
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Did you know that I have no interest in reading that book?***
Mar 11, 2016, 1:16 PM
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Did you know that I have no interest in reading that book?***
Mar 11, 2016, 1:18 PM
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Maybe at some point in your life you'll want to....
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All-In [38514]
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My faith is strong that I won't.***
Mar 11, 2016, 1:20 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study
Mar 11, 2016, 1:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study ] |
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> Read the book I linked to and you'll find plenty....
So in this book is empirical verifiable evidence of the existence of God? If so, i'd be happy to read it.
>Do you realize that there's a better chance of a tornado whipping through a junkyard and leaving behind a perfectly assembled corvette than for everything to fall into place for evolution to occur?
Is that so? That is not at all how evolution happen nor is anyone claiming that it did. I'm not sure how an inanimate object randomly being assembled in just a few seconds/minutes has anything to do with biological entities that reproduce and gradually change over time.
Evolution certainly doesn't state that we just popped into our current state randomly. In fact, evolution doesn't explain the origin of life at all, it explains the gradual change in animals over time. How life started initially is another subject entirely.
> Did you know that if the earth was tilted ONE degree either way on its axis or if the moon wasn't on the exact course orbiting the earth that it's on that life wouldn't exist?
I have a hard time believing that fact but for sake of argument let's say it's true. So what? How does that prove there is a god?
Are you familiar with basic statistics/probability? Sure it's unlikely for our exact setup to have happend but given the fact that there are more planets in our galaxy alone than grains of sand on all of our beaches there are plenty of chances for this to happen. Not so unlikely after all huh?
Also, the universe and even the earth itself is not so suitable for life at all. We currently couldn't live anywhere else in the universe (that we know of) unless we had special equipment and/or terraformed it first. Also, most of the earth itself doesn't support us. I'm not so sure your creation argument is really adding up.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study
Mar 11, 2016, 1:37 PM
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I think he is trying to say that if the earth was located closer to the sun, We'd burn up, if earth was further away, we'd freeze. I'm not sure how he used the moon in place of the sun tho
There is some truth to that, but it doesn't prove a God.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study
Mar 11, 2016, 1:40 PM
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> I think he is trying to say that if the earth was located closer to the sun, We'd burn up, if earth was further away, we'd freeze.
Which is still a silly thing to say because we are in an elliptical orbit and we do get closer and farther away depending on the time of year.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study
Mar 11, 2016, 1:45 PM
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True.
I meant I've heard pastors imply that the earth is located in the perfect spot cause we'd burn up if earth was a little closer to the sun.
In reality, it'd take MILLIONS of miles closer to burn or freeze.
I'm assuming he meant that.
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study
Mar 11, 2016, 1:52 PM
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I know were closer in winter, further in summer. I didn't become a weather man without knowing simple stuff.
Again, I'm saying I think that's what jhop was implying. But keep in mind, jhop is a Trump lover
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Look around you, that is the evidence
Mar 11, 2016, 1:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study ] |
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I'm not religious, but there is no denying the fact that at some point, something had to be created. That's not to say the big bang, etc. did not happen, or that the earth was created in 7 days, but ultimately there had to be creation. Otherwise, there would simply be nothing.
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All-In [38514]
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That in no way proves that there is a God, or specifically
Mar 11, 2016, 1:17 PM
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a Christian God.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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It proves there is some sort of god, or some sort of being
Mar 11, 2016, 1:22 PM
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Does it prove there is a christian god, no.
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All-In [46825]
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Re: It proves there is some sort of god, or some sort of being
Mar 11, 2016, 1:23 PM
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What if it's a frog god?
Or a Dog God!!!!! That would be hilarious.
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110%er [5887]
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Re: It proves there is some sort of god, or some sort of being
Mar 12, 2016, 12:46 PM
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I'd watch that sitcom.
"Hello, this is Dog, I mean God! Sorry, I'm still getting used to this new position"
rofl 4 days
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Heisman Winner [137915]
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Because you can't explain how it happened, that's proof
Mar 11, 2016, 1:24 PM
[ in reply to It proves there is some sort of god, or some sort of being ] |
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that there's a non-denominational god?
Did you know native Americans thought the gods covered the earth with a blanket at night, and stars were holes in that blanket? Silly, right?
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I don't think the snark is helping you understand what I'm
Mar 11, 2016, 1:26 PM
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saying. Have you ever had say, some money, magically appear in your wallet? Did you children magically appear in their rooms?
Ultimately, at some point, matter must have been created by something. Whether that was by Native American Gods, a muslim god, a christian god, I don't know, I'm not arguing denominational stuff. I'm more or less pointing out the fact that ultimately someone, some thing, whatever had to have created the basis for everything.
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Heisman Winner [111577]
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Re: I don't think the snark is helping you understand what I'm
Mar 11, 2016, 1:30 PM
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fact huh?
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Yes, unless you think everything just randomly appeared
Mar 11, 2016, 1:32 PM
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or has always existed, in which case you're going farther out on a limb than the christians you love to mock.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Yes, unless you think everything just randomly appeared
Mar 11, 2016, 1:34 PM
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So did God randomly appear?
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I mostly agree with that.
Mar 11, 2016, 1:30 PM
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I wouldn't say we could never know. I mean how do you know that?
I think the safest thing to say is simply we do not currently know. I do not know if there is a God or gods or anything supernatural for that matter. I simply haven't seen any reason TO believe that. If given some evidence then I could understand.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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It's an open question that's hard for us to wrap our minds
Mar 11, 2016, 1:40 PM
[ in reply to I mostly agree with that. ] |
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around. But regardless of your beliefs, those beliefs take faith, unless you're just willing to concede the fact that we don't know. From a logical point of view though, there was ultimately some sort of creator to create the basis of everything as we know it. Without that, we have nothing.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: It's an open question that's hard for us to wrap our minds
Mar 11, 2016, 1:42 PM
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I'm having a hard time following this logic. It is not a logical point of view to say that we could not have come from nothing and then say that God did.
You are right about one thing, we simply do not know. No logic states that something must have created it though because that means that something must have created the creator.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Therein lies the mystery of god, or whatever you want to
Mar 11, 2016, 1:47 PM
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call it. You aren't placing any value in the idea of a higher being, and that's fine. Just realize doing so takes much more faith than not.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Therein lies the mystery of god, or whatever you want to
Mar 11, 2016, 1:53 PM
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Um no, it doesn't take any faith at all to state that I don't know. Which of course I do not.
Saying "there must be a god or some creator" is a statement of faith which is exactly what you are doing.
Did we come from nothing or did we always exist? No idea. Did God start it? No idea. No faith required.
> You aren't placing any value in the idea of a higher being, and that's fine.
And for one simple reason. No evidence. Existence is not evidence for a god in and of itself.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Therein lies the mystery of god, or whatever you want to
Mar 11, 2016, 1:56 PM
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We are close to agreeing here.
I call myself a doubting Thomas, agnostic. I do believe in some higher power but I'm far from having the answers, in fact I have more questions than answers lol
But I'm not religious or a church goer.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Well, it's certainly clear you've thought this one through
Mar 11, 2016, 1:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: Therein lies the mystery of god, or whatever you want to ] |
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and come up with your own conclusions, lulz. It's Friday, I'm about to go get on my boat. I still think you're the guy who waits until the bilge is full to determine the boat is sinking, but I digress.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Well, it's certainly clear you've thought this one through
Mar 11, 2016, 2:03 PM
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Well agree to disagree then; enjoy your boat! I've got to get one of those one of these days.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I don't think it's unreasonable to say that it takes more
Mar 11, 2016, 2:13 PM
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faith to believe that everything just happened to fall into place perfectly for us to exist in our current condition, as opposed to believing there was some sort of higher power helping guide those things.
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Heisman Winner [137915]
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Again...hard vs. soft atheism, or even agnosticism.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:20 PM
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I don't know how everything we see today got into its place. That doesn't take faith, just intellectual curiosity to want to find the answer for HOW everything we see today got into its place.
Hard atheism, i.e., "there definitively is NO higher power", takes a form of faith, as proving there is no higher power is also impossible.
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Heisman Winner [137915]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Look around you, that is the evidence
Mar 11, 2016, 1:26 PM
[ in reply to Look around you, that is the evidence ] |
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If you really value "looking around for evidence" how can you ignore the mountains of evidence that we see in the fossil record or simply in our DNA?
Just because we don't know how something started does not mean that a supernatural being did it. Basically what you're saying here is, It seems so incredible that I can't possibly understanding how it happened, therefore an even more complicated thing (i.e. God) must have created it.
You don't seem to have a problem with the idea that God always existed, so why couldn't the universe have always existed or simply come from nothing? Where did God come from?
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All-In [38514]
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I don't think he's saying that at all.***
Mar 11, 2016, 1:28 PM
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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What are you even talking about with DNA and fossil record?
Mar 11, 2016, 1:29 PM
[ in reply to Re: Look around you, that is the evidence ] |
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What would it have taken for something to come from nothing? I don't know where god came from, I'm not attempting to answer that question. Logically speaking, it makes no sense that everything has just always existed, or that the basis for everything just randomly happened.
Either way, you're lying to yourself if you think you factually know there is no god or higher being.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: What are you even talking about with DNA and fossil record?
Mar 11, 2016, 1:37 PM
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> What are you even talking about with DNA and fossil record?
Did you not read my reply? You said to "look around" and see the evidence. Clearly you do not value evidence if you do not value what the fossil record tells us. That was just an example.
> Logically speaking, it makes no sense that everything has just always existed,
You say that and then turn around and say that God always existed. So which is it? Why is it a logical fallacy to say that something can't come from nothing but God (something) came from nothing or always existed?
> Either way, you're lying to yourself if you think you factually know there is no god or higher being.
I didn't say I factually know there is no God, in fact read my other posts I say the opposite. I said I do not know because I've never seen any evidence to believe there is. There could be a God sure, I just haven't seen the evidence.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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What is with you and this "don't value evidence" stuff?
Mar 11, 2016, 1:43 PM
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You came out of left field with the fossil record talk, that's not even relevant to this discussion.
I tend to think these concepts may be a little too abstract for your train of thought.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: What is with you and this "don't value evidence" stuff?
Mar 11, 2016, 1:50 PM
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Seriously? You can't follow that I was giving an example of how you don't value evidence? What is so confusing? It is relevant when you tell me to look around for evidence. I'm saying that based on previous discussions that evidence doesn't really seem to matter to you. In fact, you have chastised me before for being "too academic" when I bring up facts and figures.
> I tend to think these concepts may be a little too abstract for your train of thought.
Oh please, you are writing logical fallacies all over the forum. I guarantee you i've spent plenty of time contemplating these exact sort of ideas.
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Heisman Winner [137915]
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I think you're confusing hard and soft atheism.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:01 PM
[ in reply to What are you even talking about with DNA and fossil record? ] |
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I'd venture to guess that most non-Creationists in this discussion are soft atheists, by definition. The two schools of thought in the Junge, in my estimation:
"I can't explain how this stuff was created. It could be any number of explanations, including a higher power, but I'm not going to believe any single explanation without some sort of proof."
"I can't explain how this stuff was created. Therefore, it must have been created by a higher power."
Reasonable, or no?
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Reasonable, sure. For me, I don't see how you could
Mar 11, 2016, 2:04 PM
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come to any conclusion other than some sort of higher power primed the pump, so to speak. But to each his own I suppose.
I think deep down, most of us have an opinion though.
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Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study
Mar 11, 2016, 1:22 PM
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If there is a God (of whatever kind) he is not the "want to have a relationship with you" type that Christianity pushes.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study
Mar 11, 2016, 1:31 PM
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Then why did he create us?
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All-In [38514]
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HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 1:32 PM
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Pay attention!
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 1:34 PM
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Yes he did...
And then he sent Jesus to earth to show us who he was and there's more proof that Jesus existed and did everything the Bible says he did than for any other religion out there.
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CU Medallion [56069]
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Is there more proof that Jesus existed than Muhammad?***
Mar 11, 2016, 1:41 PM
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Is there more proof that Jesus existed than Muhammad?***
Mar 11, 2016, 1:45 PM
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There are accounts of Jesus dated to within years after his death written by people that were killed for their faith....
I'm not saying Muhammad didn't exist, but there's no proof that he was a prophet sent by god other than the Koran which has many more questions surrounding it's origin and authenticity than the gospels.
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All-In [46825]
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Re: Is there more proof that Jesus existed than Muhammad?***
Mar 11, 2016, 1:47 PM
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> I'm not saying Muhammad didn't exist, but there's no
> proof that he was a prophet sent by god other than
> the Koran which has many more questions surrounding
> it's origin and authenticity than the gospels.
Replace Muhammad with Jesus and Koran with Bible and you have the exact same argument.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Is there more proof that Jesus existed than Muhammad?***
Mar 11, 2016, 2:11 PM
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Wrong...
Jesus was not a random person living in a cave that wrote a book...
Did Muhammad perform miracles and teach people about love and kindness? Were there witness to these things and detailed accounts from people who knew Mohammad?
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All-In [46825]
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Re: Is there more proof that Jesus existed than Muhammad?***
Mar 11, 2016, 2:32 PM
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Actually he did preach love and kindness. Have you read the Koran or are you repeating what Fox News has told you?
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All-In [46825]
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Re: Is there more proof that Jesus existed than Muhammad?***
Mar 11, 2016, 2:41 PM
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Still waiting for an answer on this.
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CU Medallion [56069]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:09 PM
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Yes, but faith can be made stronger with fact...
That's why God sent Jesus so we would see with our eyes and we have accounts that we know came from people that walked with him and AGAIN were killed in his name...
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:10 PM
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Who is alive today that seen Jesus with "our own eyes?"
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:12 PM
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Who is alive today that saw George Washington or Abraham Lincoln?
Do you question whether or not they existed?
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All-In [46825]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:17 PM
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George Washington- We have letters he wrote and a house he built. Are any letters in the bible from Jesus?
Abraham Lincoln- Pictures.
Both have graves that have bodies in them.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:25 PM
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That's right...
You'll find their bodies...you'll find Mohammad's and Buddha's as well....
Guess whose body you won't find though?
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All-In [46825]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:28 PM
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Spewing out stuff you heard your pastor say once does not constitute a fact. There are many bodies who haven't been found. Where are adam and eve's body? Since we can't find those two does that mean that they were resurrected up to heaven as well? Face it dude you are fighting a battle that nobody wins. You have your faith. Others have their facts. Facts and faith are like light and dark. The presence of one means an absence of the other.
Message was edited by: FBCoachSC®
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:30 PM
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Except that facts are also on my side....
Read the two books I linked and then get back to me but you won't will you?
You don't want to because you know you'll be proven wrong and that's a sad state to be in....
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All-In [46825]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:33 PM
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I've read something better than a secondary source. I've read the bible from cover to cover multiple times. Or is that other book your bible?
And please give me these facts. Not ideas, Not conclusions based on beliefs. Facts. I will take them in a list.
Message was edited by: FBCoachSC®
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All-In [46825]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:41 PM
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Still waiting on an answer on this.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:52 PM
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I've shown you where to find your facts directly from people that have spent their careers studying the authenticity of historical documents and the gospels have been proven to be the best attested book from ancient history.
The copies of the New Testament we have today have been proven to be 99% the same as the original copies which can be traced to within years after Jesus walked the earth.
Your argument at this point casts doubt on anything and everything from history that we don't have a picture of....arguing with you is like arguing with a stop sign....
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All-In [46825]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 2:58 PM
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If you are a Christian, why are you not doing this studying instead of taking other people's word for it? And the Old Testament is the part used as a historically accurate source. Not the New Testament. How do I know? I'm a history major. And it's not a "picture" that is required for something to be historically accurate, but archaeological methods. I'm not saying Jesus wasn't real. There are many things that show he absolutely could be. The difference between me and you is that I take the facts and see that he COULD have been real. You take what your pastor told you to mean he IS real.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 3:16 PM
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I have done the studying by reading books by people that are experts on this....
Sorry I can't go to the holy land and start digging up artifacts for myself.
If you truly had researched the facts you would know that there is more evidence for the gospels than any other ancient texts out there.
I've said it numerous times and I've even linked a book that has proof straight from the mouths of New Testament scholars and archaeologist.
I don't know what more you want me to do for you....
I'll say it one more time...read the two books I linked and you'll see a guy asking for the same proof you are except he's asking people with doctorates in this stuff.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 3:17 PM
[ in reply to Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either. ] |
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And as a christian my faith is not based on the facts....
But I know that my faith has been well placed based on the facts...
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 4:09 PM
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> And as a christian my faith is not based on the facts....
Clearly...
> But I know that my faith has been well placed based on the facts...
Such as?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either.
Mar 11, 2016, 4:26 PM
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The biggest thing for me is the fact that the authors of the New Testament went to their deaths proclaiming that Jesus was the son of God. There's plenty more physical evidence that the gospels are accurate to the original copies that have been dated to the first century.
Like I've stated multiple times, they wouldn't have done so over a joke or a hoax. There is historical proof for Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as well, not just from the New Testament.
This very discussion was a big part of the Case for Christ book and there are plenty of facts from New Testament scholars that prove that these men lived during the time of Jesus.
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Rock Defender [53]
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There is historical evidence that these two existed.
Mar 11, 2016, 5:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: There's no proof Jesus was God's son either. ] |
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Outside of bible stories, there is no historical evidence that there was a Jesus.
As far as the gospels are concerned, any studied biblical scholar will tell you that Mark, the first gospel, was written at least 60 years after Jesus supposedly existed. And the Mark you read today isn't even the same as the original.
None of this is an insult to your faith. You are free to believe anything you want. Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure we cannot control what we believe. Our beliefs are shaped by our life experiences. Even the biblical Jesus calls it 'born again'. You have no choice in being born. It happens to you beyond your choosing. Because if your frame of reference, you are a believer. Because of my frame of reference, I am not a believer.
Imagine if you had been born in India. Would you still present the same argument you have today? Probably not.
BTW, you are not going to beat Jesus into anybody with Lee Strobel's book. For every atheist turned believer, there are 5 or more believers turned atheist. Just ask Matt Dillahunty or Seth Andrews.
If God is as big as you think he is, he doesn't need your help to defend himself. If he does, he's not that big. Is he?
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CU Guru [1381]
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Re: There is historical evidence that these two existed.
Mar 11, 2016, 6:21 PM
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well I have read this book, and I came away from even less convinced there is a "God", much less that he is as the bible states.
I find it funny how so many can read a book (the bible) and take what amounts to campfire tales, that have been written and rewritten and twisted over 2000 yrs ago.... the longest telephone game ever, as fact.
As another poster said if you were born in a different time and place youd believe what you are told as you do now. If you were born in Norway back in the day youd believe in Oden, and so on
People can believe what they want, but dont confuse "faith"
- a belief not based on proof.
with facts
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: There is historical evidence that these two existed.
Mar 11, 2016, 6:49 PM
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The bible is the most accurate ancient document there is.
That is a FACT.
For decades archaeologist have been turning up things that prove the bible to be accurate.
The dead sea scrolls were dated back to before Christ and they are almost 100% accurate to the bible we have today with the only discrepancies being irrelevant grammar mistakes.
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All-In [34108]
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Especially the talking snake part.***
Mar 11, 2016, 7:27 PM
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Especially the talking snake part.***
Mar 11, 2016, 7:33 PM
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Let me know next time you hear of a monkey turning into a human....
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All-In [34108]
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Evolution doesn't say a monkey turned into a human.
Mar 11, 2016, 7:44 PM
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The Bible does, however, say there was a talking snake.
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Legend [19919]
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Re: Especially the talking snake part.***
Mar 11, 2016, 7:52 PM
[ in reply to Especially the talking snake part.*** ] |
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And the talking donkey (Numbers)
And the earth stopping in its rotation (Joshua)
And the earth being flat (Genesis, Isaiah, Revelation, Job, Matthew,...)
And the geocentric universe (Genesis, Psalm, Job, Isaiah,...)
And the global flood (Genesis)
And its contradictions (Genesis - Revelation)
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All-In [34108]
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Re: Especially the talking snake part.***
Mar 11, 2016, 9:01 PM
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And the Yahweh.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: There is historical evidence that these two existed.
Mar 11, 2016, 6:46 PM
[ in reply to There is historical evidence that these two existed. ] |
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Actually you're wrong because Luke who wrote one of the gospels and the book of Acts was a historian that is proved to have lived during that time.
You're wrong on Mark too which can be traced back to 65 A.D. and all of them can be traced to within 90 A.D. which was less than 60 years after Jesus' death. All four authors of the gospels were alive during Jesus' ministry and all four of them eventually died as a result of their decision to follow Jesus.
You raise a good question about people born into other religions but the bible says that all will hear the gospel before it's said and done.
I also know people that have turned atheist but it's certainly not because they researched and came to that conclusion. Most of the time something happens in their life or they hear something that at the time makes more sense than believing in a Creator.
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Legend [19919]
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Rock Defender [53]
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I've got video evidence of Cris Angel walking on water.***
Mar 11, 2016, 1:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: HE DIDN'T!!! ] |
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 1:55 PM
[ in reply to Re: HE DIDN'T!!! ] |
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You keep saying there is more proof for jesus/christianity. Can you point to one single verifiable piece of evidence? Or do I have to read some book from amazon?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 1:58 PM
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I would rather you just read the book and see the evidence for yourself because there's a lot more proof in it than I've laid out...
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 1:59 PM
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Jhop, tell me more about the moon stuff.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 2:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: HE DIDN'T!!! ] |
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I've spent countless hours contemplating and searching for answers like this. I used to be very religious, less than 5 years ago actually.
Don't take this as a personal attack but statements such as your last one are even more of a reason I no longer believe. When I ask for simple proof of any kind, it's ALWAYS a wild goose chase in some other direction such as reading this book on amazon that has all the answers.
It's clear to me that this proof most likely simply doesn't exist because even the most devout of believers fail to provide even the smallest hint of proof.
The thing is, it's not at all the same when you consider the mountains of evidence for natural explanations of how we got to today. We can see stars forming (and dying) in the night sky as we speak. We clearly see our evolution in the fossil record and through DNA sequencing. So far, science has brought us a clearer and clearer picture of reality that can be verified and tested. Does that mean we know everything? No of course not, there is most likely WAY more we don't even know we don't know than we know. But it's the best way I've seen to understand our universe.
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All-In [46825]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 2:14 PM
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I use to be a youth pastor. Your move 
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 2:20 PM
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It seems as though reading the bible is a surefire way to become agnostic/athiest haha
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All-In [46825]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 2:28 PM
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That's what happened to me. Read the bible from cover to cover. Took me close to a year. Found so many issues.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 2:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: HE DIDN'T!!! ] |
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I don't claim to have all the answers or to be some kind of scientist or archaeologist or something....
THAT'S why I'm telling you to read this guys book.
He was an atheist that refused to believe just like you. His wife and family were all Christians but he just thought the whole thing was silly....so he set out to prove it wrong.
His book is not just his story of his journey....it plays out like a documentary with interviews with people who ARE archaeologist that have studied the authenticity of Jesus and the gospels.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 2:27 PM
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Again, to be clear:
1. You don't have evidence that YOU PERSONALLY can explain/show to me? Seems odd given how certain you seem to be.
2. Do I have to be an archaeologist to believe Jesus existed and is the son of god?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 2:33 PM
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You're just spinning in circles now but that's all people that try to argue against God and Jesus can do....
I never said that I personally could show you the archaeological findings of the gospels. I can't prove to you that an atom is made up of protons and electrons either but someone higher educated than me told me....
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 4:07 PM
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Forgive me, but how am I the one spinning in circles? You are making a claim (that God exists, specifically the Christian one as stated in the Bible). I've asked you to provide evidence for this which you can not.
Seems clear to me that you either can't or won't. Either way doesn't leave me with much confidence in your assertion.
> I never said that I personally could show you the archaeological findings of the gospels. I can't prove to you that an atom is made up of protons and electrons either but someone higher educated than me told me....
Sure you could, we could go down to clemson university and look through an electron microscope and the direct evidence for ourselves. No appeal to authority necessary.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 4:20 PM
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Here's my source one more time....
http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Christ-Faith-books/dp/0310608821
I didn't do the research. This former atheist did.
He went and sat down with multiple archaeologist, scholars, professors and asked them every argument against Christianity and guess what happened when he was done?
He became a Christian.
READ THE BOOKS!
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 4:27 PM
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I'll tell you what, I'll look into the book. However, you seem to be missing the point. If this book didn't exist I doubt your faith would be affect correct?
So your faith surely doesn't hinge on this book's existence. I'm baffled as to why you can't just point me to one piece of evidence. Surely if that book or otherwise has such good proof it could be easily laid out here?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 4:29 PM
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I've given you multiple peices of evidence and linked them to the book that does give sources.
What better source than a book written on the exact subject of this discussion?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: HE DIDN'T!!!
Mar 11, 2016, 4:33 PM
[ in reply to Re: HE DIDN'T!!! ] |
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And no I was a Christian long before I read these books but like a lot of people I had doubts.
The Case for Faith book is really interesting. Some of the biggest questions against Creationism are answered and the answers are more logical than you would imagine.
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All-In [46825]
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All-In [46825]
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We just spent an entire
Mar 11, 2016, 2:02 PM
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mega thread proving the article right.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: We just spent an entire
Mar 11, 2016, 2:35 PM
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And you know that book that you refuse to believe in says this would start happening right?
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All-In [46825]
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Re: We just spent an entire
Mar 11, 2016, 2:37 PM
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That there would be a mega thread on an article? Do tell.
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All-In [46825]
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Re: We just spent an entire
Mar 11, 2016, 2:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: We just spent an entire ] |
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Or are you talking about people denying who Jesus is?
If that's the case then that has been happening for 2 thousand years. Hence why there are many other religions. Hell it's even why Jesus was killed. Just saying.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: We just spent an entire
Mar 11, 2016, 4:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: We just spent an entire ] |
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You realize that "that book" is not even an original story and there were many religions that preceded it by millennia right?
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All-In [26968]
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Wonder if they'll study the wetness of water next.***
Mar 11, 2016, 2:21 PM
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Hall of Famer [23693]
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Or the gender identification of glaciers.***
Mar 11, 2016, 3:18 PM
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110%er [7013]
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That's a cold shot, man.***
Mar 11, 2016, 3:39 PM
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Hall of Famer [24767]
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... but according to 'Ancient Astronaut Theorists'...***
Mar 11, 2016, 2:26 PM
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All-In [34108]
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Hi guys.
Mar 11, 2016, 6:40 PM
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What's going on over in this thread?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Jhop is all like you guys should be Christians because of
Mar 11, 2016, 9:52 PM
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logic and reason, but then Jhop is voting for Trump and God's all like "Hey Jhop I made you and all but maybe let someone else defend me?"
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Jhop is all like you guys should be Christians because of
Mar 11, 2016, 9:58 PM
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That's cute but I actually voted for Ben Carson....
I just love showing you Trump haters how hypocritical and misinformed you are. Trumps policies concerning tax reform and illegal immigration will do more for African American and legal Hispanics than Obama ever dreamed of yet you call him a racist....
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Rock Defender [53]
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You may have actually hurt your credibility more with the
Mar 11, 2016, 10:27 PM
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Carson thing, seeing as he believed the pyramids were for grain storage.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: You may have actually hurt your credibility more with the
Mar 11, 2016, 10:39 PM
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Maybe one day you'll grow up and realize that everyone that doesn't agree with your political views isn't stupid and then you won't spend all your time on a message board insulting and attacking those people....
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Rock Defender [53]
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I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 11, 2016, 11:00 PM
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intellect of someone who calls evolution ridiculous.
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Heisman Winner [111577]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 11, 2016, 11:31 PM
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in all fairness, people can be raised as children to believe all kinds of irrational ideas. If you get it hammered into your head at young enough an age it can be very difficult to divorce yourself from it.
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Legend [19919]
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Prov 22:6
Mar 11, 2016, 11:57 PM
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Brainwash a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Even that verse doesn't include women - since they aren't humans and all. Just property.
I departed. Thank god.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Prov 22:6
Mar 12, 2016, 7:08 AM
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Context....
The bible refers to a woman as property when telling how a man should be the leader of a household and a woman should be his servant....
It's not literally degrading women. God created man AND woman in his own image.
Context, context, context....
The bible was written over 2000 years ago and it can still be applied to our life today but you have to under the context of what you are reading.
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Legend [19919]
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I understand your subjective reading
Mar 12, 2016, 9:35 AM
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You trust the Pentateuch for the story of your origin, yet you choose to ignore its stance on women. Even the apostle Paul, the founder of Christianity (if he even existed), teaches that women were created for men and are their property.
You will say "context", "New Testament", and "Jesus"...but the truth is that the context of the entire book is demeaning to women. It's just a historical truth. Even our current culture doesn't value women as much as men.
Look jhop, I've been where you are. If it works for you, that's fantastic. I'm not trying to convince you that there is no god. But to choose ignorance and refuse evidence that explains the natural world is in itself ignorant...whether ther is a god or not.
Have a great day. Go Tigers!
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I understand your subjective reading
Mar 12, 2016, 12:54 PM
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You call me ignorant yet I'm the only one in this entire thread that has posted any thing that even resembles a fact with sources to back it up.
What's ignorant is thinking you can open a book and take out one sentence and draw a conclusion based on that alone.
You don't open the newspaper and read one random line in the middle of an article do you? No, you start at the beginning understanding the whole story and the context it was written in...
Why should the Bible be any different?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I understand your subjective reading
Mar 12, 2016, 2:55 PM
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I'd like the context for these please or do I need to read the entire thing to realize how ridiculous they are?
The stories are worse than the crap you see on TV these days...
Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock! Psalm 137:9
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18
You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Ephesians 6:5 NLT
She lusted after her lovers, whose ######## were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. Ezekiel 23:20 NIV
When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I understand your subjective reading
Mar 12, 2016, 4:15 PM
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Psalm 137:9
If you would have read 137:8 you would understand the context a little better. Verse 8 says "Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us." The Babylonian Army besieged Jerusalem and God punished them for it.
Numbers 31 17-18
Again....context. This passage is talking about the destruction of the Midianites who were an evil nation that were enticing Israel to worship another God.
Leviticus 25:44-46
You need to realize that everything the Bible mentions it doesn't condone. Under Hebrew law, slaves were treated differently than other nations. The Bible never condones slavery, but it does recognize its existence and God's law offered many guidelines for treating slaves properly.
Ephesians 6:5
Context and understanding the times. Slaves played a major role in society in that day. There were several million in the Roman empire and many of them and their owners had become Christians, so slave/master relations was something the early church had to deal with. Paul tells masters and slaves how to live together in Christian households. In those days, women, children, and slaves had little rights. However in the church they had freedoms that society denied them. Paul tells husbands, parents, and masters to be caring.
Ezekiel 23:20
This is a clear case of nit picking and not understanding the context. This was the story of two prostitutes in Egypt. Again, just because the Bible talks about something doesn't mean it condones it.
Deuteronomy 25:11-12
Most believe this verse is not literally saying to cut off her hand...that it means she must pay a fine. It was not Jewish custom to remove limbs from criminals.
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: I understand your subjective reading
Mar 12, 2016, 5:08 PM
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Regarding Numbers 31, in what context is it okay to kill a child? Do you actually think it's okay to kill a little boy just because his father is a criminal?
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Legend [19919]
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Actually I said the exact opposite
Mar 12, 2016, 4:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: I understand your subjective reading ] |
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"What's ignorant is thinking you can open a book and take out one sentence and draw a conclusion based on that alone."
You are the one cherry-picking bible passages to fit your beliefs. I have my conclusions from reading the entire thing over and over...actually wanting it to make sense. To me, it simply doesn't.
I read the Pentateuch, and the character who supposedly ordained and inspired it is a selfish, egotistical, and insecure bigot. The prophets are crazy, the gospels are an inconsistent mess, and the letters are just social instructions to control unenlightened sheeple.
I've read Strobel, Behe, Kenneth Miller, Stephen Meyer, and many more. There simply is no empherical evidence for a benevolent creator. No matter how much you wish there to be. That's why it's called faith. Twain defines it best: "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."
I'm not insulting your faith. I'm just telling you why I don't share it with you.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Actually I said the exact opposite
Mar 12, 2016, 5:22 PM
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How in the world can you say I'm nitpicking when I'm actually taking into account the context of the entire passage, not just one sentence? Which is EXACTY what you and others are doing in this thread.
You cited ONE verse and drew a conclusion from that, not an entire book or chapter but ONE verse.
"The gospels are an inconsistent mess"
That statement alone shows you're not an objective or critical thinker....
The gospels are four different accounts by four different people. The story is the same but yes some of the details are left out in some gospels. This substantiates them even more.
If they were all exactly the same it would be pretty easy to claim that this was in fact a hoax created by the early church.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 7:33 AM
[ in reply to I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the ] |
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"The mathematical odds of assembling a living organism are so astronomical that nobody still believes that random chance still accounts for the origin of life. Even if you optimized the conditions it wouldn't work. If you took all the carbon in the universe and put it on the face of the earth, allowed it to chemically react at the most rapid rate possible, and left it for a billion years, the odds of creating just one functional protein molecule would be one chance in a 10 with 60 zeroes behind it. Those odds are so infinitesimal that the human mind can't comprehend them. The probability of linking just one hundred amino acids together to create one protein molecule by chance would be the same as a blind folded man finding one marked grain of sand in the Sahara Desert and doing it not just once, but three seperate times."
Walter L. Bradley
Doctorate in materials science from Univeristy of Texas
Author of the book The Mystery of Life's Origin
Head of the department of mechanical engineering at Texas A&M
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Rock Defender [53]
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So which of the thousands of evolutionary biologists
Mar 12, 2016, 8:18 AM
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With doctorates should I post a quote from?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: So which of the thousands of evolutionary biologists
Mar 12, 2016, 8:44 AM
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I doubt you'll find a sound rebuttal to refute that....
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Rock Defender [53]
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The universe, being almost infinite makes probabilities like
Mar 12, 2016, 8:54 AM
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you posted not that hard to fathom. There are at least 500,000,000 planets in a habitable zone in the Milky Way galaxy alone.
If you rely on God to explain that which you cannot, your God will forever be getting smaller and smaller.
Message was edited by: robertn®
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 10:34 AM
[ in reply to Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the ] |
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You do realize you are conflating abiogenesis with evolution right? Evolution does not even attempt to explain the origin of life. It explains the gradual change of one species into another over time. For this, we have a ridiuclous amount of evidence.
Go look at the fossil record. You will see that older layers have more primitive species starting with simple bacteria and newer ones having complex life. Also, if you map out the DNA sequence, it shows this exact same tree of life.
There are also clear indications that we share a common ancestor with other primates. For example we have 46 chromosomes whereas our ape cousins have 48. You can clearly see where two of our chromosomes have fused together from the common ancestor.
Your mathematical odds argument is intentionally misleading and really has nothing to do with evolution.
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Heisman Winner [111577]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 11:35 AM
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some of us have 47, and I am not going to name names.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 11:46 AM
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Wrsk?
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Heisman Winner [111577]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 11:50 AM
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that would be an insult to people with downs, they are sweet fun loving people.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 1:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the ] |
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Now you're just lying...
Evolutionist absolutely have a theory on the origin of life and it's that single cell organisms were just present and they somehow over came astronomical odds to develop into livings things.
They have a conclusion, they don't have anything that even resembles a logical answer for how it occurs.
"Research on the origin of life seems to be unique in that the conclusion has already been authoritatively accepted … . What remains to be done is to find the scenarios which describe the detailed mechanisms and processes by which this happened. One must conclude that, contrary to the established and current wisdom, a scenario describing the genesis of life on earth by chance and natural causes which can be accepted on the basis of fact and not faith has not yet been written."
–Yockey, H.P., A calculation of the probability of spontaneous biogenesis
by information theory, Journal of Theoretical Biology 67:377–398, 1977
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 1:32 PM
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>Now you're just lying...
> Evolutionist absolutely have a theory on the origin of life and it's that single cell organisms were just present and they somehow over came astronomical odds to develop into livings things.
No, you are simply confused:
Evolution: the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth.
It does not attempt to explain the origin of life from non-life. That is clearly in the domain of abiogenesis. Which yes, most scientist believe happened but we do not currently know exactly how.
> They have a conclusion, they don't have anything that even resembles a logical answer for how it occurs.
Again, if you are talking about abiogenesis, you are correct. Nobody knows exactly how it occurred. We do though have a great understanding of the evolutionary process that followed.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 2:03 PM
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Have you read the books yet?
There are detailed interviews between the author and numerous scientist, scholars, and professors that have spent the majority of their lifetime studying this stuff. All of these arguments that have been brought up in this thread are discussed in detail and the facts laid out with sources to back it up.
If you would take the time to start at the beginning and read both of them all the way through (in other words don't nitpick it like an atheist tries to do with the bible) I would bet my house that you'll realize that there's far more proof for Jesus and Chistianity than any religion or belief out there....
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 2:47 PM
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Let me ask you this, why do you value the opinions of the few scientists, scholars and professors who have an obvious creationist agenda but you don't value the opinion of the vast majority of scientists who agree that evolution is the correct explanation for the evidence we see?
Why is it that the scientists you choose to believe just so happen to be Christians (or religious in some way)? If evolution weren't true, wouldn't there non-religious scientists pointing out the obvious flaws in evolution?
Just to be clear, there are a lot of christian scientist that do believe in evolution but it's either extremely rare or never happens the other way around... interesting no?
We can argue all day but are you denying the simple facts presented in the fossil record? Are you claiming that there is a worldwide conspiracy that scientists are adhering to? That makes no sense.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 3:40 PM
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There are plenty of non religious scientists that recognize that the evolution theory has major flaws that even Darwin recognized.
It's interesting that you keep bringing up fossils...this is a direct excerpt from Case for Faith which focuses more on the proof and arguments against the existence of God:
Initially troubling to me was the paucity of fossil evidence for the transitions between various species of animals. Even Darwin conceded that the lack of these fossils "is perhaps the most obvious and serious objection" to his theory, although he confidently predicted that future discoveries would vindicate him.
Fast forward to 1979. David M. Raup, the curator of the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago said:
"We are now about one hundred and twenty years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species, but the situation hasn't changed much. We have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin's time."
What the fossil record does show is that in rocks dated back some five hundred and seventy million years,there is the sudden appearance of nearly all the animal phyla, and they appear fully formed, "without a trace of the evolutionary ancestors that Darwinists require". It is a phenomenon that points more readily toward a Creator than Darwinism.
That isn't the only argument against evolution. In his book Origin of Species, Darwin also admitted: "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, then my theory would absolutely break down. Taking up that challenge, Michael J. Behe's book award winning book Darwin's Black Box showed how recent biochemical discoveries have found numerous examples of this very kind of "irreducible complexity".
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 3:51 PM
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Well you've certainly convinced me of one thing, I definitely won't be reading that book as it's clearly deceptive.
No transitional fossils? Are you kidding me? You've got some reading to do bud, here's a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossil
> There are plenty of non religious scientists that recognize that the evolution theory has major flaws that even Darwin recognized.
Source on that? Also, Darwin didn't "invent" evolution, he discovered it. His opinion on the matter has zero relevance to the truth of evolution. It's backed up by evidence, not darwin's opinion.
> What the fossil record does show is that in rocks dated back some five hundred and seventy million years,there is the sudden appearance of nearly all the animal phyla, and they appear fully formed, "without a trace of the evolutionary ancestors that Darwinists require". It is a phenomenon that points more readily toward a Creator than Darwinism.
This is patently false. A simple google search would disabuse you of this nonsense. Also, they agree that the earth is millions of years old but that we were created instantly? So... how does that work with the Bible exactly? Which btw has a contradiction in the very first book about which was created first, man or the rest of the animals.
It also pretty clearly says in the bible the earth was created within 7 days... we have trees that are older than 6000 years old. We can also see light from stars that are BILLIONS of light-years away. Seems that the bible has some facts wrong...
> "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, then my theory would absolutely break down. Taking up that challenge, Michael J. Behe's book award winning book Darwin's Black Box showed how recent biochemical discoveries have found numerous examples of this very kind of "irreducible complexity".
Irreducible complexity has been successfully rebutted multiple times and is an obvious creationist talking point with no basis in reality. Again, a simple google search would do you wonders. You clearly have a religious agenda that is clouding your judgment of some basic facts.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 4:31 PM
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I'm astonished that after hundreds of posts in this thread someone finally posted a link....
Wikipedia however is not a credible source....
Mathematical Physicist Robert Griffiths once said "if we need an atheist for a debate we go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn't much use. The evidence is too clear."
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 4:50 PM
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I think it's hilarious that you won't accept Wikipedia as a valid source (even though that article is packed with links to verified sources), but you unquestioningly accept a book written over 2000 years ago by Middle Eastern men with little more scientific knowledge than the average second grader.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 5:24 PM
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Nobody accepts Wikipedia except for maybe info about some random celebrity....
Anybody can claim something on that site.
Multiple parts of the Bible have been proven through archaeology and what's more, the book we're reading today has been proven to be word for word 99% accurate to the scrolls that date back to before Christ, scrolls that predicted Jesus death, burial, and resurrection.
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Rock Defender [53]
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This is a fun debate. The accuracy of Wikipedia vs the
Mar 12, 2016, 5:29 PM
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Bible.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: This is a fun debate. The accuracy of Wikipedia vs the
Mar 12, 2016, 5:36 PM
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One has been proven more and more accurate over time....
The other college and high school students are forbidden from using as a source for their essays....
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Rock Defender [53]
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It's actually been the opposite, but OK.
Mar 12, 2016, 5:44 PM
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Are high school and college students allowed to cite the bible for scientific papers?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: It's actually been the opposite, but OK.
Mar 12, 2016, 5:56 PM
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Oh look a link:
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/hittite-faq.htm
There's plenty more where that came from....
Noticed you didn't post one to verify your claim that the Bible has been proven false.
As for the Bible as a source it doesn't claim to be a historical document, history just proves it to be....
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Rock Defender [53]
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Is allaboutarchaeology.org more or less credible than
Mar 12, 2016, 6:01 PM
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Wikipedia?
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Legend [19919]
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Rob, the bible is true
Mar 12, 2016, 6:16 PM
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because it says it is.
Aren't you smarter than a 5th grader?
Any studied historian nose that.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Is allaboutarchaeology.org more or less credible than
Mar 12, 2016, 6:31 PM
[ in reply to Is allaboutarchaeology.org more or less credible than ] |
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On the subject of archaeological findings?
Yes?
Where do you go to get news about Clemson sports?
A Clemson sports website like Tigernet?
Imagine that.....
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Rock Defender [53]
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The link you posted was from an evangelical website
Mar 12, 2016, 6:34 PM
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that asked if I was ready to accept Jesus at the bottom of the page.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: The link you posted was from an evangelical website
Mar 12, 2016, 7:18 PM
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Are you ready to dispute that archaeological evidence for the Hittites doesn't exist?
Or that the Bible doesn't mention the Hittites?
Or that the Bible wasn't scrutinized for mentioning a people that were thought to never have existed?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Whether people existed or not isn't my problem with the
Mar 12, 2016, 7:27 PM
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bible. It's whether there's a god or not. I know full well that Joseph Smith is very real and probably went all the places he said he did. Does it make him a prophet?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the
Mar 12, 2016, 5:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't think that conservatives are stupid. I question the ] |
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It has links to the source... you can follow them and check it out for yourself. Or better yet, just drive down to the biology department and have a clemson professor show you some pretty basic facts.
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Legend [19919]
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Just 3 more til 200!!!
Mar 12, 2016, 6:39 PM
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Come on jhop, where are ya?
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All-In [46825]
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Re: American devotion to religion is waning, according to study
Mar 12, 2016, 10:17 PM
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This thread has resurrected more times than Jesus supposedly did.
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