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Topic: Listening to Coach Lee post Georgia...
Replies: 17   Last Post: Apr 23, 2021, 1:28 PM by: Moontiger
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Replies: 17  

Listening to Coach Lee post Georgia...

[3]
Posted: Apr 21, 2021, 10:47 PM
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on youtube. The guy seems to be supportive of this team as he should be but defeated a little.

I am not a huge baseball follower since the days I was a student and was not a fan of Jack having some interaction with him in those days. He seemed abrasive and a bit of an egomaniac to me.

I did meet the coach for TCU after they got knocked out of the CWS a few years back who has ties to Clemson and he spoke candidly about our handling of Leggett. He said he thought firing him was a horrible decision but I guess you have to take it with a grain of salt.

I don't know what to think now, was firing Jack a bad idea looking back? I am not trying to flame up the fan base here but maybe some of you in the know can weigh in.

Thanks!

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I think firing Leggett is a good example of

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Posted: Apr 21, 2021, 11:03 PM
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you might do a little better, but you could also do a whole lot worse.

The program seemed to have slipped some during Leggett’s last few years. Whether that was an enduring trend or just a bump in the road is anyone’s guess.

I definitely think Jack deserved a lot of grace and benefit of the doubt as a result of his success here over many years. I do think it hurt him that the Gamecocks were so good for several years in a row there.

If Clemson wanted to make CWS appearances regularly and win a national championship, then I think it was reasonable to go in a different direction. Unfortunately, that is a really lofty goal and we seem to have proven that firing someone like Jack has a better chance of turning out worse than it does turning out better. But I suppose we had to try.

I’m not a huge baseball fan like some here, so their opinions should hold more weight than mine. But in hindsight, I think sticking with Jack would’ve made more sense.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


We get it, Judge. We should keep Brad forever.***

[1]
Posted: Apr 22, 2021, 7:07 AM
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Monte has won an ACC Title, hosted 3 regionals, and


Posted: Apr 22, 2021, 8:41 AM
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struggled winning the regionals in his first 4 full years as head coach.

That was better than the last 5 years of Leggett.

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Yep and last year was off to a solid start until canceled...

[2]
Posted: Apr 22, 2021, 8:53 AM
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Monte's issue is he cannot win in the NCAAT. Maybe some of that goes back to his style of play (baseball experts can chime in on that) but that part has to change. Certainly we out this season but he doesn't deserve to be canned bc of one bad year.

As for Leggett...I do think the Gamecocks success and the overall staleness of the program hurt him. I hated to see Jack go but didn't necessarily disagree with the decision to change.

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Yeah, I'm not suggesting that Monte is the answer at all...

[3]
Posted: Apr 22, 2021, 9:15 AM
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but I think it's crazy to say that we shouldn't have moved on from Leggett.

I actually did not care for the Monte hire, although I liked him and will of course pull for him.

After the Dabo hire worked out, it's hard to really "know".

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Re: Yeah, I'm not suggesting that Monte is the answer at all...


Posted: Apr 22, 2021, 11:07 AM
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Yes and at the time Monte had CofC rolling and had taken them to super regional...he was part of Tanner's staff and was seen as one of the next great coaches and being a SC native (and having coached in the state his whole life) was desirable to fans. You also felt like Monte would get the in-state guys like Scott Wingo now and we wouldn't get all the northeast kids that Jack loved. At the time, Holbrook wasn't exactly a fan favorite in Columbia either and there was some urgency that his days were numbered and the race was on to get Monte.

I think alot of people had the opinion...'hey Jack had his run, he took us to multiple CWS appearances, should've grabbed at least one title somewhere in there and didn't do it. it was time to give another guy a shot.

its also worth noting that firing Jack was a huge blackeye for us in the coaching world and alot of good candidates just weren't going to consider us bc of that. I think its somewhat similar to when Kentucky fired Tubby Smith as basketball coach.

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Re: Yep and last year was off to a solid start until canceled...

[3]
Posted: Apr 22, 2021, 10:09 AM
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It's ashamed on a discussion board that you can't have a civil discussion on our sports. There's a lot of people that read tnet, attend the games and really know baseball. Skeeta56, deroberts, Horry Tiger just to name a few. As Pacific pointed out, our coaches are really great people. However, imho, saying something on a discussion board pro or con about a coach shouldn't brand you as a traitor, a defender, or personal attacks. Yet it does. Makes you seem anti Clemson or less of a fan or something. In the end, I think 99% of everyone here wants Clemson to win and no matter what they post, they'll be there at the end of the day screaming GO TIGERS.

I wish more would speak up. Personally, I like Monte. Analytics say if you can jack a ball out, you'll score more runs than putting the ball in play. Debatable. I really think it's our pitching. And not just this year. Monte's whole tenure. Our pitchers have good era's whip etc until we play an above avg team to a great team.

Monte's had some good records... But we've been fortunate with schedules etc for last 6 years to build good "looking" records but had the teams we've had the last decade, had to play the sec or b12 , we wouldn't have even been in regionals.

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Re: I think firing Leggett is a good example of


Posted: Apr 23, 2021, 1:28 PM
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Think we got to give Monty a little more time with MLB draft situation and injuries you can get behind the 8 ball quick As far as Jack yes Ray Tanner brought him down Jack struggled when he lost the Florida and Vandy present coaches In my opinion they made the difference between average Jack and great Jack If Monty can not pull us up as a contender then he will have to go

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Curious to see what some folks say

[4]
Posted: Apr 21, 2021, 11:14 PM
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Personally, I think JL at the end was going as far as he could get Clemson.

Granted, there was a lot of talk of how he (apparently) should have gotten another year because he got back to the Tourney/Regional and maybe some of the older posters can chime in on that chatter.

Also, seeing that DRad basically let Jack's funding go that helped the Baseball team with their scholly situation...well that definitely did not helped things.

Really wish we could have seen last year's baseball team play out just because it seemed like things were coming together for a good year.

Overall though, I don't think Monte was a bad hire at all. I think we have had some rotten luck in recruiting where the higher quality players decided to go the minor league route (can't blame them) but as of this season it is what it is.

Personally, if its a scholarship situation that needs fixing that is hurting us then it will have to be addressed IMO or we are in for much of the same if they decide to send Monte packing.

Also, is it me or does it seem like we are lacking some star power? Like since Beer left, who's really stepped up on the team to provide the sparks?

I mostly have to read the posts and articles of TNET since I can't watch any games but it doesn't appear like we have a go to person to fire up the team on the squad.

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Very thoughtful post as well as Judge's. Thank you guys!***

[2]
Posted: Apr 21, 2021, 11:29 PM
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Re: Curious to see what some folks say


Posted: Apr 22, 2021, 8:49 AM
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"Also, seeing that DRad basically let Jack's funding go that helped the Baseball team with their scholly situation...well that definitely did not helped things."

This is not accurate-- we pulled out of the Academic Common Market for undergraduates( we are still in it for graduate transfers); however, what we did was switch to a different funding system that allows Clemson to provide financial assistance to more students both academic and athletic.

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Re: Listening to Coach Lee post Georgia...

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Posted: Apr 21, 2021, 11:19 PM
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He does sound defeated. His coaching is also just throwing mud and see what sticks because he is desperate. He can feel the fire. The last presser b4 this one, UVA series, he was saying it's all on him. I know a few of the moms that have kids who've been recruited or play for him and they love him to death and speak of Kingston- USC as an abrasive ####.... Big reason is Monte recruiting the state so you'd expect those moms to love him.

Monte is a good coach. He's sort of been forced into recruiting in state. We've got good talent. Now, is he and his assistant coaches developing said talent, not really imo. But he's not getting the top 100 recruits like Wilhelm and Jack brought in. Or at least Jack's early years.

Jack should NOT have been fired like he was. As long as he'd been here (and it's being proven drad has patience with coaches a la Brad) imho, Jack should have been given more leeway to ride off into the sunset on his terms. The way it went down (others on here can splain better) was not good on DRad or Jack. Happens all the time in workplace.

No denying Jack's teams were falling off. But honestly, I think we should have stuck with him longer. Looking back, the Tanner coaching tree has flailed. Jack's coaching tree has bloomed. If we were going to fire jack, we should have put out the bucks to hire the top coach in baseball. Same thing with bball. We seem to settle for mid major hires and hence we end up with mid major talent.

Personally, I'd like to see someone that's vested in and has ties to Clemson. Someone that can sell a kid to come to school and spend oos tuition. Then change our hitting and pitching philosophy.

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Thank you, and great post.

[4]
Posted: Apr 21, 2021, 11:33 PM
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This coaching thing is a tuff gig and hiring and firing them is too. Good thing I'm not an AD because I was even pulling for West to pull it out because I liked him. I like Brownell too having met him as well.

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Re: Thank you, and great post.

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Posted: Apr 21, 2021, 11:48 PM
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That is so true. They are. Hey, Tommy did ok at Memphis. And no quarrentee that sully wouldn't be worse than Monte. Monte's fun to be around and has a good wit. Very personable. Brad may go to Drexel and make the final 4... They're in the business for a reason. All fantastic people... Just sometimes not the right fit and that particular school. Sadly for DRad, he's got some tough choices to make.

The only thing I say is go big or go home. Kinda what he did with Rittman. I just think it's too easy for an AD to fall into the trap of hiring someone that's hot at a mid level school and thinking we'll if they can take c of c or Greensboro to a tourney then they should be able to make miracles happen at a bigger school vs having a philosophy. Tough.

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Exactly! Tuff!!***

[3]
Posted: Apr 21, 2021, 11:50 PM
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Re: Listening to Coach Lee post Georgia...


Posted: Apr 22, 2021, 10:09 AM
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Like others on here, I think Leggett had taken the program as far as he could. The Coots’ success was the final straw. But when it comes to firing and hiring a coach, it’s the devil you know versus the devil you don’t know.
I was excited for Monte when he was hired. I grew up near Lugoff-Elgin and have friends that know him personally. They all say he is such a great guy. He came in young, energized, and excited. I know some of the players recruited by him and they and their families think the world of him. Now, these players and families are wondering what’s going on. Just from what I’ve heard, from those mutual friends, he sounds like he’s over his head. He’s worried about getting fired and he’s trying to right the ship. I hope he can.

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My take is the same it always has been. Since mid 2000's.

[3]
Posted: Apr 22, 2021, 10:11 AM
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Firing Jack was an obvious mistake. We literally angered his coaching tree. The best coaching tree in the last 50 years of college baseball. Maybe ever. The risk was massive, the chances of elevating from where we were were low.

Jack Legget was not abrasive as a person. At a game in 2011 or 2012 (can't remember for sure) less than an hour before a game against FSU my wife asked Jack for an autograph on a ball that was hit out of the park in warmups. My wife said he seemed surprised by the question but then smiled and said "normally people want the players autographs, are you sure?" She nodded and he literally invited her in the dugout, BEFORE THE GAME and asked her where she was from and they talked about HER family for like 4 or 5 minutes. My wife ended up feeling guilty that he was probably busy and had coaching things to do so thanked him for the time and excused herself out of the dugout. Jack Leggett was abrasive because he saw the program as his adopted child. He loved it and he defended it. We f***ed up how we did him.

Like I said in 2019, to sum it up...

My take on the baseball "situation." [9]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019, 11:34 AM


I was a very vocal supporter of Jack Leggett back when he was on the hot seat. My opinion was that while there was clearly a downward trajectory, that trajectory was from great heights (that he established) and that giving Jack time to right the ship was more likely to keep our program up in he clouds than if we fired him and looked for a hot coach. So, I disagreed with firing JL because I thought our long-term and medium term future was better off sticking with the coach who took our program to the best place it's ever been.

But, when Jack was fired, and Monte was hired, I got behind him. I put Clemson ahead of my opinion and I couldn't help but want to see us succeed. I went on record saying that while I did not support firing Jack Leggett, I did support the hire. But I said then, and I'll say it again now... if we didn't make it to a Super Regional in 4 years, that confirms that firing Jack Leggett (who took us to 11 of them in his 22 years) was a mistake. After Monte Lee's first year, I was convinced that we would likely go to a Super regional in the subsequent 3 years and I considered his first season to be a success. I thought even after 2017 that we were around the corner from getting close to where Jack had us a decade ago. I thought there was a big chance that the painful and controversial decision to fire the most successful baseball coach we ever had may somehow be vindicated. Now, I am convinced that is not the case.

I am definitely against firing Monte Lee because I think you simply have to give baseball coaches a LOT of time. I remember that Wilhelm went multiple years without even going to the tournament and it would have been awful to fire him because we were clearly a solid program. Then with Jack, we made the tourney 21 of 22 years, and went to the CWS 6 times, and had our best finish ever. But then, after 4 years of failing to make it back to a Super Regional we fire a Hall of Fame coach. Now, after he was fired, we just went 4 years in a row without a Super and we have a guy who is not in the HOF. We have a guy, who I support, who does not have 6 CWS under his belt. We have a guy that does not own the most impressive coaching tree in the history of the sport. We have a guy who hasn't dedicated the lion's share of his career to Clemson. It's an ugly situation and it was NOT worth it.

If we fired Monte Lee now it would be a mistake in my opinion. But the biggest mistake was firing Jack Leggett. Bill Wilhelm is a legend at Clemson and did not have the same level of success as Jack Leggett. Bill Wilhelm would have been fired if T-Net had been around then. That much is clear.

So why did this happen? It's obvious. T-Net (Vocal Clemson fans/donors) got emotional because our (relatively) minor struggles coincided with our rival having one of the best eras in college baseball history. So we literally found an assistant coach on the team that we were so jealous of. And we are not better off for it after 4 years. So when you tell me to "move on," I have moved on in the sense that I support Monte Lee and Clemson baseball. But I learn from history. And I try not to make the same stupid decisions more than once.


https://www.tigernet.com/clemson/forum/message/my-take-on-the-baseball-situation-25526054


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