»
Topic: I'm glad this torture stuff has come out.
Replies: 107   Last Post: Dec 13, 2014, 9:43 AM by: Catahoula®
This topic has been archived - replies are not allowed.


[ Archives - General Boards Archive ]
Start New Topic
Replies: 107  

I'm glad this torture stuff has come out.

emoji_events [10]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:11 PM
 

It's awesome because when you ask people if they support it or are disgusted by it, it's a great way to find out who the sociopaths are in your life.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Re: I'm glad this torture stuff has come out.

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:13 PM
 

how dare you taint the great legacy of George W Bush. Attacking the president is just un american.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

Jeb 2016!***

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:07 PM
 



2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


FNC and JEB spell Victoreeeeeee!***


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:12 PM
 



badge-donor-05yr.jpgbadge-ringofhonor-conservativealex.jpg link


That's your definition of a sociopath? Someone who doesn't

emoji_events [11]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:23 PM
 

care if the CIA tries to get information to stop more attacks by beating the crap out of people who decapitate aid workers and suicide bomb public markets?

link

null


It was more along the line of...

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:07 PM
 

People who support ineffective torture against people who may or may not be guilty simply because they enjoy the idea.

Which they ####### do and won't admit it.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Hm. That's a lot of assumptions.

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:20 PM
 

Sounds like the report aligns with what you want to believe. You seem to be pretty strong in support that it is the absolute conclusive word on the effectiveness of both this particular torture and torture in general.

Also, every American who is not opposed to treating people who many believe have committed horrible atrocities poorly in an attempt to prevent future atrocities actually gets off on the idea that these people are being hurt. Whether or not that's what they said...YOU know it's true.

And for this...you came back to Tigernet?

Perhaps a few more hummus references would help?

link

null


Let's simplify it.

[2]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:28 PM
 

Torture is wrong.
Torture is un-American.
Torture is un-Christianlike.
Torture directly flies in the face of what this country was founded on.
People who condone torture need some help. Consult a psychiatrist for further explanation.

Yes, I'm black-and-whiting that baby on the last point, and I don't care. If you condone torture in any way, shape or form, there's something off upstairs.

Do you like hummus, though?

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


That horse is high.

[2]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:40 PM
 

I wish everyone was as enlightened as you, Cata. There are people on the other side of the planet who seem to hate us for our very existence. Worse, they hate everyone not like them. They slaughter people for believing differently than them. Not just people who oppose their religion...but also people who just AREN'T their religion...then...people who aren't the right sect of their religion. Women, children. They force people to be their grunt soldiers and drug them before battle. They behead people and put it on YouTube. They send mentally unstable people into market squares to blow up innocent people. They plot to cause terror on our soil. To attack randomly and cause pain. You might think that someone wanting them hurt in return, especially if it gets actionable intelligence to prevent future pain and suffering, is mentally deranged. I call that being human. But I'm not as evolved as you are.

And of course, I say this as a staunch opponent of any torture by America. I am in full agreement on your first four sentences (with the disclaimer that I don't generally make claims on what is or is not Christian-like).

link

null


I wish they were, too.


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:45 PM
 

But then arguments would be boring.

So what's the problem? You say you oppose it.

I'm more in the camp of torture isn't effective because someone will spout out anything to make it stop. Which, ya know, is the case. Kinda those folks who admitted they were witches just so people would stop torturing them.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


I don't know if it is effective or not.


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 5:02 PM
 

Maybe torture gets you what you want and maybe it doesn't. I have a hard time believing that the CIA is in the business of condoning a practice that they absolutely know could create horrible PR for them (and the country...as it has now), create a recruiting tool for the country's enemies (as it now will) and...well...is horrible, if no actionable intelligence comes out of it. I mean, I'm sure there are spies in the CIA who just want to go all Reservoir Dogs on a terrorist because they can...but the systemic, organized use of these tactics? I find it hard to believe they would do so for kicks.

Usefulness is irrelevant to me. Of course, I have that luxury, as no one is asking me to protect them from terrorists. But that's my 1/320,000,000th vote as an American.

"What's the problem" between you and me? I don't like vilifying people who disagree with me. People who are filled with anger toward terrorists aren't sociopaths. People who oppose gay marriage aren't all bigots. People who support more entitlement programs and wealth re-distribution aren't all ignorant pinko commies. Okay...I went too far. :) But the rest is true.

link

null


Re: I don't know if it is effective or not.


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 5:09 PM
 

I never said "people who are filled with anger toward terrorists are sociopaths." I said people who enjoy the idea of torturing them are.

Sociopathy, according to Dr. Martha Stout, an expert in the field, can be simplified: A person who lacks guilt, remorse, or a conscience towards his or her cruel actions or the suffering of other people is a sociopath.

I argue those who relish the idea of torturing other people fit this definition.

The CIA has operated for decades with a "I do what I want, brah" attitude. I don't see how this would be different. I think they're just mad it got busted wide open.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Re: I don't know if it is effective or not.


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 5:19 PM
 

"It's awesome because when you ask people if they support it or are disgusted by it, it's a great way to find out who the sociopaths are in your life. "

link

null


Yep... still talking about peoples' opinions on torture.


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 5:27 PM
 

Pretty sure that was made clear.

Anyway, I have less and less tolerance anymore for people who support anything that causes other people pain or treat people with inequality. People can call it closed-minded, but they can gaze upon the fields where my ##### are grown and see that it is barren.

Plus, I like to poke badgers. You take care.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Re: It was more along the line of...

[1]
Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 10:14 AM
 

Why do you think it was ineffective dunking.... Of course that's what the demo's want you to believe... They never talked to folks that actually were involved with the program. These folks at the cia will tell you differently. That they gained valuable info and that during a time when they thought we were going to be attacked again by terrorist they wanted to protect our soil.

I challenge you to go back and watch the videos of innocent people jumping out of burning buildings knowing they would die, but did not want to burn to death.

If that's not enough then watch the videos of beheadings! If that doesn't turn your stomach nothing will.

They say they want to bring this battle on our soil. Maybe they can, maybe they can't but I would rather torture someone with water and gain info than see someone I know beheaded or blown up by an extremist nutcase.

#### that report that provided more fuel for our enemies.

link

Re: It was more along the line of...

[1]
Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 2:33 PM
 

I like thought-out solutions, not emotionally-charged reactions.

I've seen the 9/11 videos multiple times. Seen several beheading videos. It doesn't call for a radical, knee-jerk reaction. It calls for rational responses on many fronts.

Torture doesn't work. Period. It's been proven throughout the centuries. Tortured people will tell you whatever they can to make it stop, true or not.

In 2011, an interview with Ali Soufan, a former FBI interrogator who laid in to Al Qaeda suspects, said that torture simply isn't effective. This guy was in the mix of it all and said what this report did three years earlier.

Or how about our own experienced military officials who state that it doesn't work? ####, the Army manual specifically says it is not effective because the person will "say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

Finally, on the morality front: if you truly believe in this nation, our founding fathers, and what we were created upon, then you will oppose the use of torture.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Hey! HEY! We're awesome!

[3]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:24 PM
 



link

It's awesome for me because by knowing who is aghast and

emoji_events [11]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:25 PM
 

ashamed, I have great insight on who not to count on if the sh## ever goes down.

link

Vote Rick Grimes.***


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:10 PM
 



2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


I was thinking more B-Real but that's cool too.***


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:50 PM
 



link

So I'm clear on what you're saying....

[3]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:27 PM
 

if someone doesn't have a problem with water-boarding KSM in an effort to save more American lives, they are a sociopath?

badge-donor-05yr.jpg link

Re: So I'm clear on what you're saying....


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:34 PM
 

it is certainly the good christian thing to do, so I can understand the support.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

Who is talking about Christianity? The word used was


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:45 PM
 

Sociopath.

link

null


Re: Who is talking about Christianity? The word used was


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:49 PM
 

hmmm, Seems like the only people that torture are religious nutjobs. Maybe they are sociopaths too.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

The CIA is "religious nutjobs"? It's okay. When you form

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:03 PM
 

a coherent argument, you can tag back in.

link

null


Re: The CIA is "religious nutjobs"? It's okay. When you form


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:04 PM
 

no, but the Bush Administration that authorized it were a bunch of christian nutbags. I even recall Bush defending his actions by suggesting he had spoken to god himself. So I guess we can add psychopath to the list as well.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

He just likes to use Christianity as a foil

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:47 PM
 

Everybody who disagrees with him is religious, in his mind, so if he can invoke Christianity in some way against them, he thinks he's scored a point.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

I guess the only thing we have left to get information out


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:40 PM
 

of terrorists is make them listen to Miley Cyrus 24/7. But I'm sure that'll be banned too. ;)

badge-donor-05yr.jpg2005_majors_champ.jpgbadge-ringofhonor-xtiger.jpg link


I apologize for not making it clear

[2]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:06 PM
 

What I should have said is that since torture is ineffective, as proven with this matter, the argument that it should be done likely just boils down to the person's sick desire to have someone different from them tortured.

I wonder what brand of hummus they used?

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


ask Bin Laden if it was effective

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:13 PM
 

oops.

Also, you do know this report was very one sided and didn't even interview the cia agents. it was about as one sided as the Uva rape article.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg2005_majors_champ.jpgbadge-ringofhonor-xtiger.jpg link


Re: ask Bin Laden if it was effective

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:16 PM
 

Double oops.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/10/opinion/bergen-torture-path-to-bin-laden/

CIA director acknowledges info in report. Triple oops.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/11/politics/john-brennan-defends-cia-after-torture-report/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


weird i heard from former cia agents on tv that said it did


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:24 PM
 

seems that there's conflicting info out there huh.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg2005_majors_champ.jpgbadge-ringofhonor-xtiger.jpg link


Well, I'm sure a CIA agent would never lie.

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:28 PM
 



2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Did you just simultaneously use a CIA agent as a reference

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:21 PM
 

in support of your argument AND mock the idea that CIA agents are honest?

link

null


Yep. There is no spoon.***

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:38 PM
 



2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


"Since [a partisan report] says "torture" is ineffective"

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:30 PM
 

You're completely ignoring what the minority and the CIA had to say about the evidence they gained through enhanced interrogation methods. The report in question didn't even interview the subjects who were responsible for the interrogation program.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

Who makes up that minority?


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:38 PM
 

And I of course trust the CIA due to their reputation for honesty and being forthcoming.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Who makes up the majority?


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:46 PM
 

As someone else posted, if we're going to say a one sided majority- report is partisan, then we should also say a one- sided minority report is partisan (although Bob Kerrey has also argued that the majority's report is flawed). I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is treating this report as if it's an uncontroversial and objective reportage of fact.

The thing is, the CIA and those who were involved in the interrogations are in the best position to know whether or not the enhanced interrogation methods they used were actually helpful in discovering new information. Even if you don't trust them, you'd think you'd at least interview them for the report you're doing on their work. Didn't we learn anything from the recent Rolling Stone story on UVa?

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

2nd time I've seen the UVA thing brought up...


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:51 PM
 

be careful as that case is also on the side of due process, something those arguing for the use of torture exceptional "enhanced interrogation" seem to be against when it's "justified."

link

That is a good point...


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:02 PM
 

but I'm not sure it's as applicable to international relations as it is to normal crimes that refer to easily identifiable laws.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

and I am sure it does.***


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:03 PM
 



link

Re: and I am sure it does.***


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 5:44 PM
 

I would actually argue that it's wrong to treat unlawful combatants the same as normal combatants because it incentivizes war by terror.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

I doubt they need any more incentive. Kinda their MO


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 6:49 PM
 

and the argument is more about us and what we stand for than what terrorist stand for. In other words, how we choose to combat the "War on Terror" is a more dangerous opponent than terrorist. I don't really fear terrorists, but I do fear destroying what we stand for in our fight against them.

link

According to the committee:

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:19 PM
 

They spent three years going through six million pages of documents and materials that came directly from the CIA, including intelligence reports, emails, transcripts, and other records, to draw their conclusion. It's right there on page 6.

On that same page, they state they used interview transcripts conducted by the CIA's Inspector General and the CIA Oral History program. This information came from the CIA itself.

Perhaps the minority people are the ones who supported the torture to begin with...

Either way, the CIA is admitting they did it.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


The majority also supported it


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:40 PM
 

Which is why they have to claim they were lied to now.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

Hey, you ain't gotta argue to me that they both suck.***


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:42 PM
 



2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Speculation is made in this report that the intel gained...


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 5:22 PM
 

from EIT could have been gathered by other means.

I read the report and watched the Brennan presser today. No one seems to be making the point that actionable intel wasn't gained from the EIT program. So, I think claims that it was "ineffective" are speculation at best.

"done likely just boils down to the person's sick desire to have someone different from them tortured"...in my mind, you lose what credibility you might have had with this statement. Come on.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg link

Ask yourself this

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 5:30 PM
 

Let's say someone you love is mentioned as a suspect by a detainee being tortured. Let's say that person rounded up and are tortured.

Let's say your loved one's innocence or guilt is completely up in the air. Still favor it?

Then let's say your loved one is guilty. Still favor it?

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Sorry, but I can't check my common sense at the door for...

[1]
Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 8:21 AM
 

an argument's sake.

The whole premise of your question is off.

People were not subjected to EIT just if their name was mentioned by someone being water-boarded. You know that, right?

badge-donor-05yr.jpg link

You're suggesting that there would have to be some evidence?


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 11:54 AM
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/29/us/politics/29gitmo.html

2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


Yes...and you're confusing anyone in Gitmo with those...


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 12:04 PM
 

that have EIT. They are not one in the same.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg link

Re: Yes...and you're confusing anyone in Gitmo with those...


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 12:36 PM
 

They didn't use EIT on anyone without substantial evidence? I wasn't aware of that.

Let's assume that's right.

If so, are you still agreeing with part of Cata's hypothetical? Are you okay with having your loved ones held indefinitely at Gitmo with no evidence, so long as they're not tortured.

And are you okay with the government using EIT (or, you know, torture) on them, as long as they determine (in their absolute discretion, with absolutely no oversight) that there's at least some terror-related evidence against them in some way or other?

2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


Here goes...


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 9:04 PM
 

"I wasn't aware of that" is an odd response. Wouldn't one typically "have to be aware" of something like this to make such an accusation? Anyways...

I'm "not aware" of anyone being held at Gitmo with "no evidence". Are you?

See this for both a response to being held at Gitmo and subjected to EIT...

http://www.tigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=16487325

badge-donor-05yr.jpg link

Re: Here goes...


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 9:24 PM
 

You're playing games. Not interested.

2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


Playing games? It's a stupid question...you have to admit...


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 9:28 PM
 

give me some evidence that there are multiple people held in Gitmo with no rhyme or reason and I'll take a look at it.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg link

Thanks for playing.

[1]
Posted: Dec 13, 2014, 9:43 AM
 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=7778310&page=1

http://www.newsweek.com/man-wrongfully-detained-cia-sees-acknowledgement-torture-report-291121

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


I understand the question opens the door...

[1]
Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 2:13 PM
 

To a load of hypocrisy if answered truthfully, so it is better off avoided.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Puhlease....


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 9:00 PM
 

is it possible that you're more smug and condescending than you used to be? You come off as thinking that anyone that has the nerve to disagree with your is "sociopathic" or a hypocrite, and so on. But anyways...

I'll answer the question this way...noting that it's a pretty stupid question considering the facts of the matter...

If a loved-one of mine was a terrorist or associating with terrorists enough to be lumped in with the very limited bunch that was subjected to EIT and the director of the CIA believed my loved-one possessed knowledge that could save innocent American lives AND my loved-one wasn't cooperating....then yes, I would not have a problem with this person being subjected to EIT as I understand the program and it's limitations.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg link

Does this mean we're not friends?

[1]
Posted: Dec 13, 2014, 9:38 AM
 

Well, I do applaud you sticking to your mantra with answering the question, even if it is a lie. Or perhaps you don't understand the "EIH" (cute spin name for torture). Here, read this and tell me if you still would want a loved one to be subjected to it:

http://www.vox.com/2014/12/9/7360823/cia-torture-roundup

Now on to the reading comprehension portion of the test. I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is a sociopath. Here's how it works.

1. Torture doesn't work. This has been proven and confirmed by our top military leaders over the years and other interrogators.
2. Torture wasn't effective in getting the CIA information. Other methods were.
3. Given those two facts, if a person STILL wants these detainees to be tortured, then they want it as some sort of sick, demented punishment rather than an effective information gathering tactic.
4. When a person wishes another person to suffer or have physical harm, and that individual has no remorse over it whatsoever, that person is exhibiting sociopathic tendencies as defined by psychiatry.

So there ya go.

Oh, when you get a chance, go read some of the comments from some ISIS clowns who say they would have never organized or arisen if it wasn't for the American torture prisons in Iraq. Maybe they're blowing bull ####, but it's something to think about.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Kind of crazy that you decided to come back after several

emoji_events [7]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:28 PM
 

years of not posting to gloat about something to a bunch of retarded perverts.

I'd venture to guess that most of the deviants you were arguing about this with are no longer here to see you thump your chest.

badge-ringofhonor-clemsonsteve02.jpg link

Probably not, but one can dream, can't he?***

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:04 PM
 



2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


flow is still here***


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:16 PM
 



badge-donor-05yr.jpgbadge-ringofhonor-conservativealex.jpg link


I do the same thing with abortion

[3]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:29 PM
 

If you disagree with me, you're a sociopath. I also find that this way of thinking is helpful when talking about gay marriage, religious freedom, gun control, euthanasia, immigration, what the top marginal tax rate should be, bbq, new music, and baseball.


More sociopaths: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/394361/torturing-truth-editors

http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy3.pdf


Message was edited by: camcgee®


2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

It's true. "Disagrees with me" is a mental health issue. :)***


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:31 PM
 



link

null


Who is this scok?***


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:34 PM
 



link

Toogie.***


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:24 PM
 



2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


#sociopathsinmylife***


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:39 PM
 



2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

I wish we would have treated them nicer, maybe they'd

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:41 PM
 

love us then.



2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpgringofhonor-lakebum1-110.jpg link

Unlike most 'muricans, I ain't skeered of terrorists......

[3]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:50 PM
 

I'm more scared of our government expanding the powers of our goon squads to eventually grabbing American citizens, taking them to undisclosed locations, and torturing the #### out them simply because they can.

If you don't think it can happen in the good ol' US of A, then double check your world history lessons.

#historyrepeatsitselfoverandoverandoverandweneverlearnfromit

badge-donor-05yr.jpg link

Bruh, if you ain't doing anything wrong, you don't have

[2]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:52 PM
 

anything to worry about.

So says some in le lunge, anyway.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpgringofhonor-lakebum1-110.jpg link

that's flow's motto***


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:15 PM
 



badge-donor-05yr.jpgbadge-ringofhonor-conservativealex.jpg link


I know...I say that all of the time....


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 5:24 PM
 

oh wait....

you're full of crap

badge-donor-05yr.jpg link

No way, man.

[3]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:08 PM
 

This program would never extend to innocent people.

Oh. Wait...

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


agree 100%***

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:15 PM
 



badge-donor-05yr.jpgbadge-ringofhonor-conservativealex.jpg link


Finally, someone who makes sense on this board.


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 6:59 PM
 

nm

link

Re: What's The Big Deal About Waterboarding?

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:53 PM
 

.



badge-donor-05yr.jpg2013_nascar_champ.gif2014_nascar_champ.gif link


I'm sure there's a pretty big third class of people you left


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:53 PM
 

out. That would be those who do not support it, but are willing to look the other way if the reason is justified.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpgringofhonor-tiggity-110.jpg link

Do the terrorists also think their actions "justified?"


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:54 PM
 

Isn't that the point?

link

I'm pretty sure the terrorists saw off heads from living


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:59 PM
 

people with dull knives and stone women to death for adultery. But if you want to compare apples and oranges, fine. They are both fruit.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpgringofhonor-tiggity-110.jpg link

You didn't answer the question


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:06 PM
 

or did you?

The point wasn't about the severity of the action, it was the rationale behind the action. How severe of an action would you "look the other way" on if you thought it justified?

link

So then everything is justified? Or nothing is?


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:16 PM
 

I'm unclear where you're going with that. There have always been situations ("exceptions," in the vocabulary of Carl Schmitt) in which unusual tactics (ie. "enhanced interrogations) are authorized (however vaguely, since the performance of these tactics is always slightly outside the legal norm) in order to preserve the normal situation in the state. The question is when these unusual tactics can be used, and who is deciding when they can be used.

It's arguable that the people we're fighting are not normal state actors, and that they are in fact criminals who operate outside the bounds of what we would call the normal "law of war." That doesn't mean we treat these enemies as if they have no human dignity, but it might mean that it makes sense to authorize some exceptional ways of dealing with them.

Compare this way of justifying "enhanced interrogation" with the justification of an exceptional way of fighting by the terrorists. There is no normal rule from which they're excepting themselves at this point. Their terrorism is righteous, not exceptional to the rule.

That's just a rough sketch of why our justification for the interrogation methods we've used might be different from their justification for terrorism. But, of course, there's always the danger of lapsing into behavior equivalent to the criminals we're fighting when we're acting on the exception.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

Perhaps ask this question

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:20 PM
 

Am I okay with our government apprehending torturing people simply because their name was dropped while torturing other detainees and no other evidence?

Because that happened. Twenty-six times, in fact.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


It depends what interrogation methods are being used


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:42 PM
 

I'm simply not going to call all of the enhanced interrogation methods authorized "torture," because I think that word should be reserved for particularly brutal methods that serve no other purpose than to harm the person being interrogated. Clearly some of the stuff uncovered was over the line, but not all of it.

I'm also not comfortable trusting the report on 26 people being picked up just because they were mentioned, or that their being mentioned wasn't a big deal.

At any rate, the point I was trying to make in the post you were responding to is that this is actually a politically fraught issue based on what counts as an exception and how far exceptional methods should go. I do think that exceptional "enhanced interrogation" methods should be used in certain situations. But of course, part of the problem is that this particular report has a slant that makes it difficult to determine what the facts are.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

It's the same rationale tiggity is displaying.


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:31 PM
 

That's the point I'm making. That's where I was going with that.

The question isn't "when can these tactics be used" the question is at what point these tactics adulterate "the norm" instead of "preserve." The vagueness of the term "enhanced interrogations" should alert us to the danger found within the concept. As a nation built on laws intended to stay our more selfish tendencies, the use of torture is a very serious one.

Found within the argument is the sense of due process and how it applies to not only citizens of the United States but to all people from all parts of the world. If we forgo that process as an aid to "looking the other way" in justified times, what determines if an action is "justified" or not?

If the terrorist are outside the normal "law of war" implies that we, the United States, are? If so, then doesn't that give evidence to the argument that we should not be playing in that arena? That the use of torture by us, whether justified or not, is akin to breaking the "law of war" and so you have compared us to terrorists? While you and I would balk at that comparison, the argument seems to fit.

link

Vagueness absolutely should make us uncomfortable


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:00 PM
 

But that doesn't mean that anything exceptional should be treated as normal, no matter what. The tragic truth is that the law is ill fitted to some situations, especially in international relations. And, in fact, there is no international law because there is no sovereign that can decide whether that law is legitimate or not. Instead, we have certain conventions that conform to a normal situation between nations: even in war time, these conventions assume that we'll be fighting against others in uniform who will be following the same conventions as us. Therefore, I would argue, when we face exceptional situations, we should use exceptional means, but only as a way of preserving the normal situation.

There is a clear difference between operating on a temporary exception and treating the exception like it's the norm. You can argue that we "shouldn't be playing in that arena," and in some sense that's a noble thought, but it's also naïve since it assumes that we'll always be facing a normal enemy rather than a criminal enemy. It also distracts us from the political question that underlies the war: is our way of doing things- our norm- really better than theirs? If so, we should be able to use exceptional methods (in an actual exception) to defend it.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

I can't find the logic in that.


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:21 PM
 

You assume that "exceptional" methods work or have some sort of common application that applies to preserve "the norm." If nothing else, studies like this that many have claimed "tell us nothing we already didn't know" provide evidence against the solidity of that claim. What grounds are we giving up in order to preserve the "norm?" By committing to acceptance of "enhanced" techniques are we not already changing the norm? I'd argue yes, which nullifies any argument of preservation or necessity.

"Criminal enemy" by definition means these individuals broke a law. So the arena of "law" is still being applied? So, it's not naive to think that in that arena, we should be held to the same standards? We should hold those that break the law to the same criteria we do any other "criminal?" This affords them the same rights of due process?

Under your argument, a cop can subdue any individual and use enhanced interrogations under the unproven belief that person either is a criminal or knows some criminals. I would disagree with this...


Your quote:
"operating on a temporary exception and treating the exception like it's the norm."

and what if the temporary exception becomes the norm?

link

You're making my point here again. This isn't do you


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:54 PM
 

support torture, yes or no. That's a loaded question and the OP knows it is. There are a million forms of torture, and a million situations when it could be used.

####, you can put those terrorists in a room with my wife when she's decorating for Christmas and that could be considered torture.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpgringofhonor-tiggity-110.jpg link

so I took this TEST

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 2:57 PM
 

I'm only 30 percent sociopath.
http://illnessquiz.com/sociopath-test/
Feels good.

2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

30 also.***

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:12 PM
 



2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


0 Sociopath. I don't think I can play with you guys anymore.***


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 5:47 PM
 



link

null


An easy way to stop the torture of detainees

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:06 PM
 

Have the detainees answer our ####### questions. If not, enjoy your ####meat sandwich.

link

The Obama administration ended the enhanced interrogations


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:31 PM
 

Instead, since it apparently doesn't care about gathering intelligence, it uses drone strikes to kill them. Way more humane.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

What if we coated the drone missiles in hummus?***

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:33 PM
 



2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Would the missiles rectally rehydrate any terrorists?***

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:48 PM
 



2021 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

We just kill them with drones now. Much easier, cleaner,


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 3:58 PM
 

and cheaper. But, when you blow up a terrorist, you have absolutely zero chance of ever getting one piece of information from him.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpgringofhonor-tiggity-110.jpg link

Re: An easy way to stop the torture of detainees


Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 6:57 PM
 

That works great! Even if they were wrongly detained or truthfully don't have the answer to the question. #### 'em! Torture them until we get something out of them.

link

yep agree 100%. Cheney's reaction is classic

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2014, 4:11 PM
 

definitely a sociopath

badge-donor-05yr.jpgbadge-ringofhonor-conservativealex.jpg link


Our enemies are so thankful that we shared secret tactics


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 10:00 AM
 

with the world too. They can better prepare their forces for our tactics and now know how to greet visiting Americans when they kidnap for ransome. Of course its only one side of the equation, even if it cost $40 million, and they didn't publish the benefits and the warnings that we gained knowledge. How stupid are those folks anyway that published this one sided report?

Guess before the demos head back home after being tossed out of office they will share more top secret info with the world about our nuclear progams and blueprints of other advanced weapons.

Peace out bro

link

Re: Our enemies are so thankful that we shared secret tactics


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 12:36 PM
 

How will they prepare their forces from being shackled to the floor until they die of hypothermia?

2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


Re: Our enemies are so thankful that we shared secret tactics


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 1:54 PM
 

How will you prepare for your family to be beheaded? Carve a pumpkin?

link

Re: Our enemies are so thankful that we shared secret tactics


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 2:44 PM
 

You're the one saying that people can prepare for this stuff. Personally I don't think they can.

2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


Who's life do you value more? An innocent victim living


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 2:01 PM
 

in the US or a terrorist who willfully planned and carried out an attacks on US soil?



Why do you think it was ineffective dunking.... Of course that's what the demo's want you to believe... They never talked to folks that actually were involved with the program. These folks at the cia will tell you differently. That they gained valuable info and that during a time when they thought we were going to be attacked again by terrorist they wanted to protect our soil.

I challenge you to go back and watch the videos of innocent people jumping out of burning buildings knowing they would die, but did not want to burn to death.

If that's not enough then watch the videos of beheadings! If that doesn't turn your stomach nothing will.

They say they want to bring this battle on our soil. Maybe they can, maybe they can't but I would rather torture someone with water and gain info than see someone I know beheaded or blown up by an extremist nutcase.

#### that report that provided more fuel for our enemies.

Did the waterboarded terrorist die? Heck no, chances are he's been released and is plotting to kill innocent victims again.

link

Where is all this coming from?


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 2:46 PM
 

If you're asking whether I'm opposed to beheading innocent people, then the answer is yes. But how is that relevant to the post you're replying to?

2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


Re: Where is all this coming from?


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 4:36 PM
 

It's all relevant imo.

link

Re: Where is all this coming from?


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 5:15 PM
 

How does it relate to the issue of whether anyone can prepare for being shackled to the floor until they die of hypothermia? Seems to me like no one can prepare for that.

2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


ITT I learned that Catahoula is

[2]
Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 10:39 AM
 

still butthurt about 10 years later

2021 purple level member link

No way, man... I rubbed hummus on it.***

[1]
Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 2:11 PM
 



2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Hey, CIA will do that for you.***


Posted: Dec 12, 2014, 2:49 PM
 



2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


Replies: 107  

TIGER TICKETS

FB GAME: Season Tickets
FOR SALE: 2 Lower Deck Season Tickets between 25 and 30 yard line that are 16 rows off the field (Section Q, R...

Buy or Sell CU Tickets and More in Tiger Tickets!

[ Archives - General Boards Archive ]
Start New Topic
694 people have read this post