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Who would you "moderates" vote for in 2024
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Replies: 29
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Who would you "moderates" vote for in 2024


Jan 11, 2022, 9:09 AM

Joe Biden

Or

Ron Desantis

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Biden


Jan 11, 2022, 9:09 AM

Desantis' handling of COVID is abysmal

Biden is the "sit down and don't break anything" candidate

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I like your funny words magic man


Interesting. Biden had a good response to COVID?


Jan 11, 2022, 9:26 AM

I'll just say that anyone willing to vote for Joe Biden, who would be 82 at the start of his second term, after what we have witnessed from his so far...and can do so by claiming that Joe Biden's COVID handling...where he literally said that he would stop it...then said it cannot be stopped...over Desantis' handling of COVID...deserves the country they would get after that.

God willing, Joe doesn't seek a second term. It's not fair to him or the country.

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null


I feel like the question is almost a throw-away except


Jan 11, 2022, 11:30 AM

for Spoon's response. But since FB responded, I can't stop thinking of the hilarious scenario of an 81 year old Joe Biden campaigning for re-election against Ron Desantis. I mean...the negotiation to determine the number of debates would be hilarious.

Desantis Camp: We think there should be five debates.
Biden Camp: Okay...we counter with "Negative three".
DC: Negative three?
BC: Yes...no debates, and we each get to wipe three previous debates from existence.
DC: That's absurd.
BC: Fine, we'll meet in the middle - no debates.

Imagine Biden challenging Desantis on his record against COVID in a debate. What a massacre.

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null


Please enlighten us on how Desantis was abysmal


Jan 11, 2022, 9:43 AM [ in reply to Biden ]

Using data and facts, please enlighten us as to how it was abysmal. And you should probably look at Florida's numbers compared to locked down states, like California.

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Re: Biden


Jan 11, 2022, 11:56 AM [ in reply to Biden ]

Coach, you might want to rethink your post! WT_? YCBS!! The guy is an existential threat to America and the free world. He will likely be gone (25ed) by 2024, then you can cast a vote for heLIARy! Would that make you happy?

BTW, re your DeSantis slam, please tell me you're NOT happy with Brandon's COVID debacle. Good grief, what are you thinking? Remember that Brandon cut Fla off from monoclonal antibodies, a despicable act during a pandemic, eh?

JBFFJ


Message was edited by: MiuraTiger®


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This reads like a telegram post


Jan 11, 2022, 12:08 PM

let me go get my little orphan Annie decoder ring

WWG1WGA

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I like your funny words magic man


Listen, I don't agree with everything DeSantis has done


Jan 11, 2022, 3:26 PM [ in reply to Biden ]

(dying on the anti masking hill in schools, while schools are struggling to stay open because they are understaffed)

but to say that Joe Biden has done better on COVID?

More people have moved to Florida than any other state during this #### show, why might that be?

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Biden, no contest***


Jan 11, 2022, 10:27 AM



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Oh wow. Why?***


Jan 11, 2022, 11:21 AM



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null


Dumb and not evil > evil***


Jan 11, 2022, 12:59 PM



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You consider Ron Desantis “evil”?***


Jan 11, 2022, 1:47 PM



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null


Yeah. I paint Trumpers with a broad brush.***


Jan 11, 2022, 4:53 PM



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Re: Who would you "moderates" vote for in 2024


Jan 11, 2022, 10:47 AM

It wouldn't matter who I voted for, DeSantis would roll over Biden.

Nothing stays the same, and America will have changed sufficiently that by 2024 if Biden is trying to run against a younger, vigorous opponent who can say just enough of the right things America isn't going to think he's trying to start a Fascist revolution - and DeSantis would, he's not crazy - a weary America looking for semi-sane, semi-capable leadership would see it in DeSantis. I think he'd easily win the popular vote and annihilate Biden in the Electoral College.

I'd have serious misgivings about both guys. I really don't like how Trumpy DeSantis is. I do think he edges right up to the edge of Fascism. I'd still probably reluctantly pull the lever for him because I agree with more of his economic principles than I do Biden's and I'm going to vote with my wallet as long as I think the guy isn't go to break democracy in America. (That's kind of a deal-breaker for me.)

If he runs in the far-right lane, though, spitting fire and populist BS, I'd still vote Biden. I just can't do populist fascism. I don't think DeSantis would, though. I'm fairly confident DeSantis would do the traditional GOP thing of running far right in the primaries and then coming back to center for the general election and winning over middle America. And then my suspicion is, once DeSantis was The Man, he'd quietly part ways with Trumpism and chart his own path...mostly because he isn't really a Donald Trump.

I question how much chance the Dems have in 2024, though...unless Trump runs again. Trump will completely mobilize America against him.

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Re: Who would you "moderates" vote for in 2024


Jan 11, 2022, 10:56 AM

How is desantis a fringe fascist?

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Keeping you economy open and freely operating is fascist?***


Jan 11, 2022, 11:00 AM [ in reply to Re: Who would you "moderates" vote for in 2024 ]



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edges right up to fascism?


Jan 11, 2022, 11:15 AM [ in reply to Re: Who would you "moderates" vote for in 2024 ]

What does that even mean? It feels like the term "fascist" is getting more abuse these days than "racist".

Everything he does, even the blatantly populist stuff, errs on the side of the rights of the individuals under his purview. Those who argue against him are upset that he doesn't issue more mandates. All of those are highly unfascist.

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Re: edges right up to fascism?


Jan 11, 2022, 11:57 AM

A Fascist is somebody who doesn't believe in democracy, who would suppress the free press to avoid public accountability, who is willing to overthrow the rule of law and certainly thinks it does not apply to him, who is willing to use intimidation and militaristic tactics to suppress opposition, and who is willing to speak populistic untruths ("Big Lies") in order to cynically manipulate their own base. And, oh, yeah, they're far-right-wing. Lefties who employ similar tactics - and plenty of radical lefties do exist and have existed plenty of places throughout history, including Europe in the '70's and '80's when the Baader-Meinhoff Gang and the Red Brigades were tearing Germany and Italy and a whole lot of Europe up - are not Fascists.

(SIDEBAR: Calling lefties "fascists" drives me up a wall...it's like, in the same way a cat is not a dog, there are two varieties of extremist Bad Guy, peoples...Commie Rats and Fascist Pigs, and they are not on the same team. For a graphic illustration of how it turns out, see what happened between Hitler and Stalin. Hitler=Fascist...actually a Fascist on 'roids and crashing off angel dust. Stalin=Communist. NOT THE SAME.)

Trump checked all of those boxes for "Fascist." Anybody who doesn't think Trump is a Fascist is, sorry, wrong. He fits every definition, and then some.

DeSantis...not so much, and even where he does, not fully. He makes a lot of political brownie points snarling at the press, but would he suppress the mainstream media if given a chance? I'm iffy on that. Maybe, maybe not. He's never stated a desire to shut down the press, much as he often spurns them and snarls at them. Does he believe in democracy? Again...DeSantis seems quite willing to engage in voter-suppression laws, and he at least tacitly supports Trump's "Big Lie" because he's passed a ton of voter-suppression legislature.
https://www.newsweek.com/florida-newspaper-slams-gov-desantis-pushing-big-lie-election-bill-1589391


So DeSantis is definitely willing to try to put his thumb on the scale. But that also isn't nearly the same as outright breaking democracy either. Don't see it in him. (Trump, assuredly yes.) Maybe I underestimate Ron...but I think at the end of the day, Ron's an American and I think gut-level believes in democracy and The American Way. Trump is a sociopathic narcissist who believes only in himself and would break the world if it was to his advantage, he cares about no one and nothing, and is a citizen in a universe composed only of himself.

Is DeSantis willing to break the rule of law? He doesn't seem as flagrantly contemptuous of the law as Trump does and at the end of the day, DeSantis is a Harvard Law graduate. My suspicion is, he's not really an anti-establishment eff-the-law radical, his occasional drama in that direction just mouths what the base wants to hear here, and if he took charge himself I think he'd be a lot more law-and-order and by-the-book than Trump ever was.

Voter intimidation and soliciting of violence? Again, I think DeSantis plays at that to placate the base more than he actually is that though his proposal of laws like this are a bit...troubling:
https://www.insider.com/desantis-proposes-law-to-protect-drivers-who-kill-people-2020-9


Mostly what I don't like is that he won't directly repudiate Trump, and is willing to employ a lot of his tactics and style because he knows it's what his base wants to see. But at the end of the day I suspect he's a lot more Romney than Trump, he just wears a much different public face...and once he became The Man, I think his style would start diverging from Trump's quite quickly. Or at least I hope so.

Complete enough answer?

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Fascist describes the democratic party


Jan 11, 2022, 12:03 PM

far more than it does the republican party. No conservative wants a dictator.

Having complete government control of your life is what leftist want. True, most want marxist or socialist rule, but fascism and marxism have a lot in common.

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Re: Fascist describes the democratic party


Jan 11, 2022, 12:21 PM

Well, politics isn't really a straight line. It's a circle...and the far right and far left, at the end of the day, are really just one notch apart on the spectrum. That's why Russia was able to go from an authoritarian Communist dictatorship...to an authoritarian Fascist oligarchy masquerading as a democracy. (It isn't a democracy...Putin can literally name his election number, and does.)

The common factor is big structures and corrupt control of the "free market". Authoritarian regimes don't have an open free market, they have a captive market controlled by government cronies...what they call "croney capitalism."

My big political epiphany way back when was realizing how Russia made that jump. Those big structures - like, say, Gazprom, Russia's giant oil conglomerate which Putin treats as his own private piggy bank and from which he's extracted more than $250 billion dollars and mostly stashed in Western banks, stolen right from him own people - can be alternately privatized or nationalized.

In a right-wing system, a single individual like Putin can plunder Gazprom because he's in charge and who's gonna stop him? In a left-wing system, Gazprom gets nationalized "for the good of the people" and the Thought Police and Party control it.

But you're right. There's not a ton of difference between Nazi Germany...and modern-day "Communist" China, which shows an immense number of similarities, right down the the racial nationalism. (See what the Chinese are doing to the Uygurs right now.) They've even bridged that big divide between absolute Party control, and big mega-rich billionaires owning private companies who are completely beyond reproach.

But it is still not correct to call left-wingers "Fascists." It's another long discussion but that is not accurate. They're a different species of bad guy, and the way they recruit and their ideology is very different.

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Understand all points, and thanks indeed for the


Jan 11, 2022, 12:03 PM [ in reply to Re: edges right up to fascism? ]

thoroughness of your explanation, but you didn't address my points at all.

As I said, fascism (in addition to all you mentioned) is all about control of a population via a single-threaded ideology, and the revocation of democracy.

From all I have kept up with, Most every move DeSantis has made has been on the side of individual freedoms (which certainly is a boon to democracy). A true fascist would have embraced Covid as a vehicle for increased control of the population, and he's totally rejected that.

Again, his biggest objections from his biggest critics are in essence "I wish he, and the state, would control us all more".

It just doesn't even come close to brushing up to fascism IMHO.

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Re: Understand all points, and thanks indeed for the


Jan 11, 2022, 12:35 PM

Hmm. I can see your point, and again, in my own head, I'm not sure where DeSantis is just being a politician saying politician things, and where he's genuinely Trumpy.

I would say, in order to be a true Fascist - and, probably, a true populist - you have to be a sociopathic narcissist who doesn't give a @#%^ about anybody as long as you get yours. Populists can be left-wing or right-wing, and I honestly suspect they don't really have an ideology, they just read the terrain and feed the base red meat, whatever they want to hear. If there's no middle class to buffer them, they'll play the rich-versus-poor left-wing populist Bring Down the Rich card, if there's a ton of racial tension they'll use that to play the right-wing "They're Coming For Our Jerbs and Way of Life" right-wing populist card, and sow and take advantage of racial division.

All they're really after is power.

Either way, somebody's going to be the absolute bad guy, who needs to be destroyed by any means necessary, and Yours Truly is just the man to do it and put these bad folks in their place.

DeSantis does a bit of that...but I think it's because the base is Trump's base and the base expects it. But again, I'm not convinced he's a real Trumpist or a real sociopath, or would set the world afire just to keep himself in power.

If you're trying to convince me he's really more of a Libertarian playing at being a Trumpist, I could maybe be convinced, though I'm more than a little worried about whether the right-wing media would actually let him get away with it. Could he get Tucker in line or put him in his place? Ted Cruz literally groveled the other night.

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Re: edges right up to fascism?


Jan 11, 2022, 2:20 PM [ in reply to Re: edges right up to fascism? ]



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Re: Who would you "moderates" vote for in 2024


Jan 11, 2022, 2:28 PM [ in reply to Re: Who would you "moderates" vote for in 2024 ]

I agree that Trump is definitely a fascist, mostly derived from his narcissistic tendencies and no particular ideology outside his own self interest.

However, I think the more immediate concern with the far right is authoritarianism. I don’t think it’s the same level of authoritarianism like we see in Hungary, although some in the party sure do have a hard on for Orban. I also don’t think the entire party has embraced it…it’s generally the freedom caucus types…but the rest sure have tagged along far longer than I would have hoped.

It’s not something that has happened overnight…the pubs have been playing the long game. Someone did the calculus decades ago and realized that the numbers would not always be in their favor…so to stay in power as a minority party they would need to stack the deck in their favor even more than it already is, starting at the local level. We’ve seen this over the years in the form of gerrymandering, voter suppression (for the sake of suppression), fostering xenophobia, and more recently by sowing doubt in our democratic mechanisms.

Overall, they’ve done an excellent job creating a myriad of boogeymen, convincing their base that everyone else is out to get them. It’s all coming to fruition and will pay off bigly over the next few decades.

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Re: Who would you "moderates" vote for in 2024


Jan 11, 2022, 12:09 PM

If DeSantis is under the influence of Trump or Trumpism, then Biden all day long. If Trumpism is dead and gone, then I'll follow his (Desantis) campaign and listen to what he has to say b4 making a decision.

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Re: Who would you "moderates" vote for in 2024


Jan 11, 2022, 2:58 PM

DeSantis is just trying not to alienate those people. He is not a nutcase like Trump. I am sure he thinks Trump is a clown.

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Biden won’t run so that’s a bad question. But let’s assume it’s KH.


Jan 11, 2022, 12:10 PM

I’d have to do more research to be more informed on each of them, but my first inclination would be Desantis. The Dem party is straying far from the middle I hoped Biden would stick to, and while that is still preferable to Trump being in office, give me any other Republican candidate besides him (and Ted Cruz), and I’d probably vote for them over a Dem candidate the way things are going now. Desanstis seems a little nutty, but not nearly to Trumps level and he’d probably be tolerable compared to the alternative.

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Re: Who would you "moderates" vote for in 2024


Jan 11, 2022, 12:13 PM

You know how well DeSantis is polling based on the number of hit pieces daily.

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Re: Who would you "moderates" vote for in 2024


Jan 11, 2022, 6:01 PM

Is that way there are so many pieces on Marjorie and Boebert?

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Re: Who would you "moderates" vote for in 2024


Jan 11, 2022, 2:57 PM

Ron Desantis

Biden will be barely pull this term off. He is too old. Also, Desantis is not like Trump and won't have a complete clown show around him. He will have professionals around him. He will be stable. Biden won't be running though.

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