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Orange Blooded [4341]
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Just a kick around question for the day.
Mar 5, 2020, 10:03 AM
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What if TDP had decided keep CTB as coach? How would things have shaken out these last 12 years? Does anyone think for a minute CTB would’ve found those magic ingredients to field a national power or would he have kept doing the same thing over and over due to job security and complacency?
I could care less anymore, but I do think this question very relevant to the basketball program.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Just a kick around question for the day.
Mar 5, 2020, 10:12 AM
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I really dislike being the person to defend the basketball program but here I go again.
The #1 difference in the situations is the Clemson and FSU are THE power football programs in the ACC.
Clemson is not a part of that distinguished group in basketball, nor have they ever been.
The #2 difference is that Bowden was losing to Wake and Maryland when he was picked to win the conference or at least the division.
Brownell is winning big games in a similar way and losing clunkers in a similar way, but he is not doing it as a favorite in the league.
To add to that, some of the "clunkers" Brownell's teams lose actually have us as the underdog according to the Vegas line (like last night), but we see them as terrible losses because we expect our team to be better which is typical and acceptable for fans to do.
Dabo busted through the Bowden ceiling at Clemson in a way that very few in the history of sports have done.
Brownell is not going to do that for Clemson basketball. Whether we want to be a program who chases the next young coach and gets a boom or bust result, or a program that settles for what we are getting is the decision that has to be made moving forward.
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Orange Blooded [4341]
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Re: Just a kick around question for the day.
Mar 5, 2020, 10:24 AM
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Were we the power football program in 2008?
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All-In [27361]
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Re: Just a kick around question for the day.
Mar 5, 2020, 10:32 AM
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NOONE can assure me that the next basketball coach will be the Dabo of Clemson basketball. The next basketball coach may end up being the Tommy Bowden of Clemson basketball. And the Tigers DO NOT need that. If you hate Brownell, quit giving Clemson money and quit going to the games! I’m sure that eliminates several dozen of you. Go Tigers
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Just a kick around question for the day.
Mar 5, 2020, 10:39 AM
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This addresses my last sentence.
We took a huge risk in letting an 8-9 win coach walk and hiring Dabo.
It clearly worked out for the best.
There are lots of examples where that hasn't worked out so well.
Do we want to roll the dice in basketball to try to become a power or do we want to play it safe and know that Brownell can keep us around the middle of the conference with his track record of a relatively high floor (most of the time) and low ceiling?
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All-In [39020]
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The Tommy Bowden of Clemson basketball
Mar 5, 2020, 12:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: Just a kick around question for the day. ] |
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would still be better than Brownell. We'd probably make the tournament occasionally.
Over a decade later and even the arguments are exactly the same. The result is unacceptable but don't change anything for fear it might get worse.
The only guarantee is that if we stick with Brownell we will continue to get what we have been getting.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Just a kick around question for the day.
Mar 5, 2020, 10:37 AM
[ in reply to Re: Just a kick around question for the day. ] |
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Clearly no, which is why a change was the right decision.
Even in 2008, based on resources and program history, we SHOULD have been able to be a power in the conference.
Also let's not forget that we had the best player in the conference in 2008 in CJ Spiller, so there was clear evidence that we were not performing the way we should be even with the talent already on campus.
I will say though that there are numerous other schools who have done what Clemson did in letting Bowden go and it has hurt the program. Maryland (not a historic power) and Nebraska (a historic power) both cut loose 9 win coaches and their programs fell apart after that decision.
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Orange Blooded [4341]
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I’m only pointing out the situation is similar.
Mar 5, 2020, 10:59 AM
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What I’m saying is we can continue with more of the same for another 10 years until Brad has 20-30 million stashed away or we can choose to try something different.
The GREATEST attribute Dabo has is he knows when he doesn’t know enough about something. Call him a CEO or whatever but when wanted to run a spread, fast paced offense, he knew he needed a Big 12 defensive guy on the other side , to do it and saw/sold the opportunity to Brent Venebles.
I don’t see this type of vision from Brad. He’s going to keep doing what he’s been doing. I’m not dogging the guy but I’m not going to keep patting him on the back and say “keep at it.” After 10 years, we know what keep at it is.
Who do we get? I don’t know. But to go forward, there has to be a mindset and structural change.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: I’m only pointing out the situation is similar.
Mar 5, 2020, 11:18 AM
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Brad is a high floor/low ceiling type of coach for Clemson.
Making a change could mean a high ceiling but it could also mean a much lower floor for the program.
Those in charge have to determine how much higher our basketball ceiling can get and if it's worth risking a possible fall to the depths of the conference.
I also don't know enough about possible replacements to know when the right time to make a move would be.
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Orange Blooded [4341]
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Re: I’m only pointing out the situation is similar.
Mar 5, 2020, 11:47 AM
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I like TigerO.
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Scout Team [193]
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Re: I’m only pointing out the situation is similar.
Mar 5, 2020, 11:36 AM
[ in reply to I’m only pointing out the situation is similar. ] |
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I say we bring in Terrence Oglesby. Homegrown guy with some coaching experience. His analysis sure doesn't seem to ever be too far off as far as what it will take to win. And he analyzes other teams' tape really well. Why not? If .500 is the bar, I say roll the dice.
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CU Guru [1676]
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Just a kick around question for the day.
Mar 5, 2020, 10:52 AM
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If you are saying that we should go after their coaches, then I am all for it.
If you are saying that has any relevance to where Clemson basketball is, then I disagree.
Gonzaga is no bigger than those schools and is frequently in the top 5 in basketball because that is their #1 sport at the school.
Saying that a bigger school should be better because a small school is having a great year is essentially saying that no small schools should ever be better than big schools.
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All-In [27361]
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Re: Just a kick around question for the day.
Mar 5, 2020, 11:02 AM
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Very true. Are you old enough to remember the 1966 Texas Western victory of Kentucky for the national championship game played in Maryland? A small school that actually changed the college basketball landscape with one win. I remember it as if it was yesterday!
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Just a kick around question for the day.
Mar 5, 2020, 11:16 AM
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I'm not old enough to remember that, but basketball if very different from football because you only need a 12 man roster and about 8 guys to contribute at a high level.
In football you can't be elite unless you convince 45-50 players to come to your school that are able to compete at that level.
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CU Medallion [67622]
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Re: Just a kick around question for the day.
Mar 5, 2020, 10:47 AM
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I always get a kick out of the football and hoops comparison. They are so different at Clemson. Hoops has settled for years. Football had coach turnover because they wouldnt settle. If Clemson people would make up their minds to support hoops and not settle it could be very good.
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CU Guru [1891]
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And the "Clemson people" that need to make
Mar 5, 2020, 10:52 AM
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that decision are in the Administration. And they have apparently decided to settle. I, for one, am willing to take a chance on a new coach. BB has had ten years. Enough is enough.
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All-In [27361]
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Re: Just a kick around question for the day.
Mar 5, 2020, 10:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: Just a kick around question for the day. ] |
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I was very impressed last night with the way the student section at VPI supporter this team that is having a year of little success. There are things that can be learned here, I wonder if the experts on their board are concerned about the coach?
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CU Medallion [55269]
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Re: Just a kick around question for the day.
Mar 5, 2020, 11:24 AM
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That didn't happen, and what is, is exactly what it it is, it's a blank question with the way I think about things as in it did or it didn't happen, and that is the way my brain deals with everything in that scenario. Sorry!!!
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All-In [27366]
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Don't EVER mention that again.
Mar 5, 2020, 11:40 AM
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EVER!
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Orange Blooded [2565]
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Re: Just a kick around question for the day.
Mar 5, 2020, 12:07 PM
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And TB could have kept telling us how wonderful Rob Spence was as the OC. Dabo's initial deed was to dismiss Spence to another locale.
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50
