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Orange Blooded [3194]
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Its been 40 years since Vietnam
Jun 2, 2015, 3:17 PM
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Im in my mid 20s so i obviously wasn't around during the war but after watching a couple of documentaries from the history channel on the war, i never realized how bad Vietnam was. The men and woman in that war were literally put through hell. I could not imagine what it would of been like walking through those jungles with the risk of getting shot, blown up, walking through a booby trap, seeing your best friend die, etc. Every war is bad but Vietnam was by far the worst war American soldiers had to go through imo. Im very appreciative of the veterans who were in Vietnam and im sorry for what they had to go through, if there are any veterans on here i would love to hear a few stories....and again, thank you.
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Legend [18499]
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WW2 in the Pacific was just as bad, maybe worse.
Jun 2, 2015, 3:20 PM
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Nobody should have to go thru any of it. War is hell.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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My wifes grandfather was a WWII veteran....
Jun 2, 2015, 4:11 PM
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and the sole survivor on the bridge of his ship that took a direct hit from a kamikaze during the battle of Guadalcanal. He was a career Naval officer (after attending the US Naval Academy and MIT) but his experiences were so horrofic and he lost so many of his friends that he would rarely talk about it.
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Orange Blooded [3194]
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My grandfather's brother was in Vietnam
Jun 2, 2015, 4:30 PM
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He drove the lead tank for the sergeant. My grandfather told me his tank got hit with a rocket but he made it out of there ok. Vietnam really messed him up though, my grandpa says he was never the same when he came back and even to this day, he sleeps with a machette beside him every night. Sad story, i feel so bad for veterans who have to suffer like that
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CU Medallion [64517]
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I had a relative who served in Vietnam....
Jun 2, 2015, 4:40 PM
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one 4th of July shortly after he came home, the family was having a cookout on the deck when some of the neighbors kids started shooting-off fireworks. He was so accumtomed to ducking for cover, the first loud "boom" from the firecrackers sent him scrambling for cover under the picnic table. Wow...just wow !!!
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Orange Blooded [2348]
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That was my first thought exactly.
Jun 2, 2015, 4:29 PM
[ in reply to WW2 in the Pacific was just as bad, maybe worse. ] |
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This kid might want to watch a documentary on the conflict in the South Pacific. Batan Death March and some of the major battles, starvation, and torturous murder of captured soldiers. Probably the worst.
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All-In [28802]
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Check the casualty rate
Jun 2, 2015, 5:30 PM
[ in reply to WW2 in the Pacific was just as bad, maybe worse. ] |
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It was much higher in WW2, whether in the Pacific or otherwise. Just the 2 month long Battle of Okinawa had 15,000 more American casualties than the 20 year long Vietnam War**.
Vietnam had the 4th highest number of casualties, but is tied with the Revolutionary War for 8th in number of deaths per day. It's 7th in deaths per population, just after the Mexican- American War.
That's not to diminish how awful it was or what a sacrifice it was, but maybe we perceive it as being especially bad because of its relative proximity to our time and the fact that it was the first war that involved modern media.
** I went back and looked, and that's actually inaccurate. What I was looking at was "total casualties" for Okinawa, which included the number of wounded, and comparing that to the number of dead in Vietnam. Actually, the number of dead in Vietnam was about 5 times the Battle of Okinawa, but the casualty rate was still much higher in Okinawa.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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CU Medallion [56603]
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the Civil War was no cakewalk. Shiloh is not too far from
Jun 2, 2015, 5:42 PM
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where we live in North Alabama.
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All-In [28802]
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The casualty rates from pre-Vietnam are astounding
Jun 2, 2015, 5:59 PM
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Yes, the ~60,000 we lost in Vietnam was horrible, but that was over a 20 year period (although most of those casualties happened from 1967-1969). The most we ever lost in a year in Vietnam was 17,000.
We lost 19,000 in the Battle of the Bulge in about a month.
By comparison, in the 10 years since 2001 (including the civilians lost on 9/11 and other DOD casualties), around 10,000 Americans have died in the War on Terror.
Kind of makes you feel blessed to be living when we're living.
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110%er [5912]
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And World War I had
Jun 2, 2015, 6:15 PM
[ in reply to Check the casualty rate ] |
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gas. Poison gas is a particularly gruesome and now illegal weapon of war.
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Associate AD [819]
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A politician's war like they all have been
Jun 2, 2015, 3:26 PM
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ever since. This country would burn if they brought the draft back and not because people are spineless, but because info is out there now with the push of a button. RIP Vietnam soldiers. You deserved better.
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Legend [18499]
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Politics and greed are at the root of every war.***
Jun 2, 2015, 3:27 PM
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Associate AD [819]
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Sure, but some do have actual stakes at
Jun 2, 2015, 3:30 PM
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risk. IMO, Vietnam wasn't one of them. WW2 did. This mess over the last 12 years doesn't.
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110%er [7168]
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110%er [6644]
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Started 50 years ago - 1966 - and it was horrible...
Jun 2, 2015, 3:47 PM
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See youtube - Body Bags and Dogtags, a tribute to Barry Alexander. We were both from Clemson (I graduated in 1966). Barry was a hero, I was not there because he was, and I have been struggling with survivors guilt and grief ever since. I work with vets with Ptsd, and believe me, if you heard their stories, you would not want wars like this to happen, and yet they are - in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Hi, Ron:
I watched this video several times over 2 days, trying to fully
appreciate it. It is a poignant and deeply moving tribute to your brother,
Barry. It certainly affirms his life and service. Your devotion to and love for
him is a witness to the man he was and the brother you still are to him today.
Yes, Spirit is the word.
Thank you for sharing. It helped me,
too.
Sincerely, Nancy
Evan Williams: What a fantastic video Ron! I was riveted from the first words. You captured so much, not only with the words, but also the reading of them. Powerfully emotional. It's easy to see how this type of work would be highly therapeutic. A wonderful cause. Thanks for sharing.?
And from reading RISE by our Daniel Rodriquez, who was in both Iraq and Afghanistan, war has not gotten any better maybe worse! Read ANGELS IN VIETNAM, by John Wesley Fisher, an highly decorated combat vet to understand the horror of Vietnam better.
--
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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60 years ago, US involvement started in 1955***
Jun 2, 2015, 7:26 PM
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110%er [6644]
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Not Johnson but Eisenhower started it?***
Jun 2, 2015, 7:51 PM
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All-TigerNet [10589]
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Not hardly - how about in the early 1900's when it was .
Jun 3, 2015, 7:53 PM
[ in reply to 60 years ago, US involvement started in 1955*** ] |
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known as Indo-China. Ho Chi Minh actually tried to meet with U.S. President Woodrow Wilson in Paris in around 1919 (or close to then), but Wilson would not meet with him. During the Battle of Dien Bien Phu, where the French were finally defeated, American planes were flying in there vast majority of supplies to the French. We were also supplying the French with massive amounts of weapons, ammo, and vehicles. We certainly did not want the French to lose, because as long as they were there we would not have to be.
Very interesting history, but much more complex than most people realize!
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CU Guru [1038]
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You apparently have not seen videos of WW2 Pacific
Jun 2, 2015, 4:46 PM
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theater. The US Marines who fought that war went through H-E-L-L...Also, the civil war was a brutal, bloody war.
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: You apparently have not seen videos of WW2 Pacific
Jun 2, 2015, 4:49 PM
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right in both cases!
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110%er [6644]
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Father in Okinawa - terrible but there was PURPOSE there!
Jun 2, 2015, 5:32 PM
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Brother in Vietnam warned me not to come as Officers were being fragged from behind and draftees quit fighting in some cases - see documentary SirNoSir
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CU Guru [1898]
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I can tell you that during battle, when bullets are flying
Jun 3, 2015, 12:10 AM
[ in reply to You apparently have not seen videos of WW2 Pacific ] |
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and people are dying, it makes no difference if it was WWII, WWI, Civil War or any war. It is all the same to those who are doing the fighting.
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All-TigerNet [10589]
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Absolutely true**********
Jun 3, 2015, 7:55 PM
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CU Medallion [67615]
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Re: Its been 40 years since Vietnam- all of them are awful
Jun 2, 2015, 5:29 PM
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Win or lose something is taken from people they never get back and they never get over it. My dad was a gunner on a B-24. He would never talk about his time much except to say where stationed. I tracked down the squadron websight and read the diary of the bombadier in his crew. The missions they went on were horrofic. I talked to his copilot. I was the closet as an adult I will ever coe to talking with my dad who has been dead since I was a kid. An amazing generation
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Member [28]
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Re: Its been 40 years since Vietnam
Jun 2, 2015, 5:40 PM
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First troops were sent to Nam in 1956. War ended in 1975. Spent the whole year 1969 there myself.
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CU Medallion [50356]
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I was there and have a hard time counting the
Jun 2, 2015, 6:05 PM
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number of times I should have died. Spent almost a year in Walter Reed. But the only time I ever got upset and cried over a documentary or movie scene was the D-Day battle on Saving Private Ryan- Had an uncle I never got to meet die there. That day was worse than anything I could ever imagine.
Message was edited by: clover65®
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Legend [15862]
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All wars are tragic. But in Nam our troops we sabotaged by
Jun 2, 2015, 6:26 PM
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the media. After the TET offensive which the U.S. Troops won big the vc were basically wiped out as a fighting force. If LBJ had let the field commanders run the war we would most likely have Won the war in Nam. But the media would show the American public what they wanted them to see. Most of the reporters were so biased against the war that they themselves lied to us. Their goal was to turn opinion against the war instead of supporting our troops.
Instead LBJ handcuffed our military while he called the shots himself from the White House!
All those who served in Nam deserve a Hero's welcome!!!
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110%er [6644]
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Soldiers themselves rebelled against officers - no way we
Jun 2, 2015, 6:45 PM
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could win that war, plus the vast majority of our soldiers including my Bro. were killed when Nixon was in office. He won election by promising to end war, but expanded it instead, and in the middle of his second term, he was the president who lost the war - our first ever! See documentary: SirNoSir
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Legend [15862]
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That info depends on what source you use. Many troops felt
Jun 2, 2015, 7:06 PM
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War was winnable without political intervention. I have researched the Nam war for several years to reach my conclusion so. Plus I have heard the same From front line troops and Jr officers as well as field commanders. Like Korea I am sure we would have to keep approximately 50K to 100K of US troops permanently in Nam to keep the north from invading g the south again.
People should do their research then form their opinions.
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110%er [6644]
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"Research" - you were reading politicos or officers with
Jun 2, 2015, 7:16 PM
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a sour grape attitude, because it was first loss ever - Read one of the most decorated soldier's in Vietnam - John Wesley Fisher's book ANGELS IN VIETNAM. Also, the best account is direct - my brother who was a decorated helicopter pilot killed with only 2 weeks left - he warned me not to come over there as platoon commander were being fragged by their own enlisted men (many drafted) and did not want to be there. See documentary SirNoSir. Also soldiers I worked with were virtually all against the war in 1968-69 - only one hardliner went back because of all the money he was making there as supply sergeant. YOUR "RESEARCH" IS BALONEY!
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Legend [15862]
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I am truly sorry about the loss of your brother. It was a
Jun 2, 2015, 7:23 PM
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difficult war. Regardless of who wins the war, no body really wins! Let's just agree to disagree.
Have good day!
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All-TigerNet [10589]
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Tigeron - I too an sorry that you lost your brother - a
Jun 3, 2015, 8:10 PM
[ in reply to "Research" - you were reading politicos or officers with ] |
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sacrifice that most of us will never know, but believe me he did not die in vain. I served there all of the year of 1970 as a Marine Platoon Commander. You have to consider that although many, or most of us, had similar experiences, there were also a lot of differences. The experiences of a Marine officer could have been a lot different that those of an Army officer who was dealing mostly with draftees. We did draft into the Marines then, but not nearly as many. Although there were fraggings of staff NCOs and officers during that time, I was never concerned about things like that, I trusted all of my men, and I think they trusted me, so it was not an issue.
Thanks to brave soldiers like your brother, we never lost a major battle in Viet Nam, and I do not consider that we lost the war. We certainly ended it and quit, but not because we were not capable of winning. Basically, as you know, we just did not have the support of the American people. I had lunch with General Westmoreland a few years before his death, just he and I, and I talked candidly with him about the war. I told him that I thought the young American soldiers accounted of themselves as well as they had in any war. He agreed and repeated that the war just did not have the support of the people.
Viet Nam has a very interesting history and I recommend to really understand our involvement read "Embers of War", by Fredrik Logevall. Excellent reading.
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All-In [28802]
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Actually, that's not true about Nixon (at least the casualties)
Jun 2, 2015, 7:11 PM
[ in reply to Soldiers themselves rebelled against officers - no way we ] |
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There were close to 40,000 of the the 60,000 casualties in the three years from 1967 to 1969 before Nixon took office. Even if Nixon did briefly expand the war, casualties dropped almost as soon as he took office.
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110%er [6644]
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Admit you are right after looking it up...
Jun 2, 2015, 7:39 PM
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But my Brother was killed (and 20,000 other American soldiers) while he was in office, and we were so hoping he would end the war quickly as he promised! Plus he made the terrible mistake of expanding the war in Cambodia creating the Khmer Rouge: The most controversial aspect of his strategy was an effort to cut the Ho Chi Minh supply trail by secretly bombing North Vietnamese sanctuaries in Cambodia and invading that country and Laos. The U.S. and South Vietnamese incursion into Cambodia in April 1970 helped destabilize the country, provoking a bloody civil war and bringing to power the murderous Khmer Rouge, a Communist group that evacuated Cambodia's cities and threw thousands into re-education camps.
Following his election, President Nixon began to withdraw American troops from Vietnam in June 1969 and replaced the military draft with a lottery in December of that year. In December 1972, the United States began large-scale bombing of North Vietnam after peace talks reach an impasse. The so-called Christmas bombings led Congressional Democrats to call for an end of U.S. involvement in Southeast Asia.
In late January 1973, the United States, South Vietnam, the Viet Cong, and North Vietnam signed a cease-fire agreement, under which the United States agreed to withdraw from South Vietnam without any comparable commitment from North Vietnam. Historians still do not agree whether President Nixon believed that the accords gave South Vietnam a real chance to survive as an independent nation, or whether he viewed the agreement as a face-saving device that gave the United States a way to withdraw from the war "with honor". There was no honor, I know a sailor who was on the evacuating U.S. Navy ship that to make room for more escaping South Vietnamese soldiers, they had to push helicopters over the side. (remember that news clip I am sure, they were panicing to get out of that lost cause).
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CU Guru [1898]
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I went there twice. I was wounded. The number of soldiers
Jun 3, 2015, 12:07 AM
[ in reply to Soldiers themselves rebelled against officers - no way we ] |
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who rebelled against officers were a miniscule number of miscreants. Your brother who died there did not die in vain. God bless him.
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Legend [15862]
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Thank you GrayBengal for your service to our country and
Jun 4, 2015, 1:44 AM
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for your sacrifice. God Bless for defending the right of freedom for me and millions of others. In my eyes you are a Hero!!!
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Orange Blooded [2762]
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Orange Blooded [2762]
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Every war has these cruel events and most are unaware
Jun 2, 2015, 6:42 PM
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of them. It is great seeing you recognizing them or at least embarking on this research...very few are aware of the extent of bravery and cruelty that occur in every war. Just off the cuff, look up gas war of ww1, Bataan death march ww2, punji sticks Vietnam, public be-headings in present-day conflicts. etc.
We were guilty too, according to McNamara. This is one of the best docu's I've seen and covers 2+ wars from the mouth of the Sec. of Defense Robert McNamara. Listen for his take on us fire bombing the wooden cities of Japan, ww2. Watch this- it is shocking...and true:
https://archive.org/details/TheFogOfWarElevenLessonsFromTheLifeOfRobertS.Mcnamara
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110%er [6644]
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Re: Every war has these cruel events and most are unaware
Jun 2, 2015, 7:08 PM
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too many media errors on this long almost 2 hour movie but want to see it - so will try another media - The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara
Topics Fog Of War, McNamara, War, Kennedy, Errol Morris
It is the story of America as seen through the eyes of the former Secretary of Defense, Robert S. McNamara. One of the most controversial and influential figures in world politics, he takes us on an insider's view of the seminal events of the 20th Century. Why was this past Century the most destructive and deadly in all of human history? Are we doomed to repeat our mistakes? Are we free to make choices, or are we at the mercy of inexorable historical forces and ideologies?
From the firebombing of 100,000 Japanese civilians in Tokyo in 1945 to the brink of nuclear catastrophe during the Cuban missile crisis to the devastating effects of the Vietnam War, The Fog of War examines the psychology and reasoning of the government decision-makers who send men to war. How were decisions made and for what reason? What can we learn from these historical events?
As American forces occupy Iraq and the possibility of additional military conflict looms large, The Fog of War is essential viewing for anyone who wants to understand how the American government justifies the use of military force. Combining extraordinary archival footage, recreations, newly declassified White House recordings, and an original score by the Oscar nominated composer, Philip Glass, the film is a disquieting and powerful essay on war, rationality, and human nature.
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Orange Blooded [2762]
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It is the most profound take on ww2, cuban missle crisis,
Jun 2, 2015, 7:10 PM
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and the Vietnam war. Jaw-dropping in fact. You can download if you look on the right side- do you see the format options?
If not I will download it and send to you somehow. It is a must-see for sure
Message was edited by: Tickled Orange®
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110%er [6644]
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Cut and pasted it to google - working fine! thanks!***
Jun 2, 2015, 7:42 PM
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Legend [15862]
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people seem to forget just how cruel and ruthless the
Jun 2, 2015, 7:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: Every war has these cruel events and most are unaware ] |
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Japanese soldiers were to our troops and civilians. I do not regret the use of the A Bomb or the bombing of Japan. We could have easily lost that war if not for a couple of breaks such as Midway and the breaking of the Japanese naval codes.
Sometimes you have to fight for freedom!!!!!!
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CU Guru [1116]
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Re: people seem to forget just how cruel and ruthless the
Jun 2, 2015, 8:20 PM
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Read Sniper Carlos Hathcock's story,"White Feather". or Ed Kugler's book,"Dead Center".
Carlos Hathcock makes Chris Kyle look like a Boy Scout in comparison to his exploits with all due respect to Kyle.
Vietnam was illegal,immoral,and illogical. Too many of my friends didn't come back. I feel guilty for being chosen to live.
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Orange Blooded [2762]
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2 others to add to your list: Flight of the Intruder, and
Jun 2, 2015, 8:28 PM
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We Were Soldiers Once. 1st is a Novel but is based on the realities of having their hands tied in the air campaign. The latter is the true story of the battle of la Drang from Lt Col Hal Moore.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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And it's been 60 years since we got involved in Vietnam...
Jun 2, 2015, 7:25 PM
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Most people don't know this but our involvement in Vietnam started in 1955 and ended in 1975.
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Legend [15862]
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You are correct. One of the problems in Nam is the South
Jun 2, 2015, 7:40 PM
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Vietnamese soldiers were not even close in fighting ability as the South Koreans. So we finally started sending US Troops. However, had Kenneday lived we may not have gotten so involved in Vietnam. LBJ escalated the war with McNamara's blessing along with the support of Daniel Elsberg who was actually in uniform on the ground in Nam.
Then they sold out the United States. Let's not forget the Soviet Union and Communist China had as much to do with Vietnam maybe more than the U.S.
We got involved by trying to aid the French so they could hold on to Vietnam as a French colony.
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Orange Blooded [2762]
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*WITHOUT McNamara's blessing.***
Jun 2, 2015, 7:46 PM
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Legend [15862]
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Check your facts McNamara initially supported the war as one
Jun 2, 2015, 7:52 PM
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of LbJ's cabinet members. He heleped to escalate the war.
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Orange Blooded [2762]
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Posts: 4487
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1 more reason The Fog of War is a must-see. McNamara
Jun 2, 2015, 7:55 PM
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opposed escalation and said so in the film, with the actual audio recordings to prove it.
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110%er [6644]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 9716
Joined: 9/22/11
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Yep, I am watching it now...***
Jun 2, 2015, 8:22 PM
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110%er [6644]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 9716
Joined: 9/22/11
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Legend [15862]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7658
Joined: 12/4/06
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Eisenhower and Kenedy sent advisors it was LBJ using the
Jun 2, 2015, 7:55 PM
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Gulf of Tonkin incident to send in the first combat troops.
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110%er [6095]
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Posts: 13241
Joined: 11/10/00
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wonder what really happened in gulf of Tonkin
Jun 2, 2015, 8:58 PM
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Lots of conspiracy theories.
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Associate AD [819]
TigerPulse: 74%
Posts: 1420
Joined: 11/25/14
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Fun fact about the Gulf of Tonkin
Jun 3, 2015, 10:52 PM
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Jim Morrison of Doors fame was the son of the Admiral in that incident.
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All-TigerNet [10589]
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Posts: 9227
Joined: 12/29/06
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110%er [6095]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13241
Joined: 11/10/00
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Pay very close attention to southeast Asia.
Jun 2, 2015, 9:09 PM
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The Chinese are flexing their might. The wrong President could very easily get us into another mess over there
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Orange Blooded [4098]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 10336
Joined: 7/1/97
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Re: Pay very close attention to southeast Asia.
Jun 2, 2015, 9:35 PM
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and hillary sure is the wrong president!
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110%er [8681]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8888
Joined: 10/19/11
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Re: Pay very close attention to southeast Asia.
Jun 4, 2015, 2:03 AM
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Hillary will not get elected. Way too many skeletons in her closet that will come up.
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Orange Blooded [4403]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3408
Joined: 9/29/09
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U.S. Iraq and Afghan vets feel a strong kinship with 'Nam
Jun 3, 2015, 11:40 AM
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Vets. We got treated a hell of a lot better than they did upon arriving back in the World but our wars and their war were both futile attempts to save an area from insurgency and guerrilla takeovers. We know how it feels to see a lot of good people die for politics and an impossible mission. I was in the Battalion, 3d Battalion 5th Marines, that had the highest casualty rate in Iraq or Afghanistan wars. We lost 26 KIA and 190 WIA, mostly amputees from IED's. I knew and know them all. I dare anyone to say that it is from a lack of skill or training. That type of warfare is hellish and it was fought in a place or places that do not want to or are incapable of helping themselves. The enemy has a vote and are not rookies. It is not Call of Duty or some other mindless video game. It is hunt and be hunted and ruthless killing as a Marine or soldier. I lose zero sleep over any ####### I blew away or that we smoked nor should any Vietnam vet. They would have killed more of us and not lost any sleep so they can rot and talk to Allah. The Vietnam vets GET that big time for their war was eerily similar. Those warriors are my heroes because they know what it feels like to operate in hell, see Marines or soldiers get torn up, and do that in a place that will never be a better place in our lifetimes. At least we were there unlike those during Vietnam who ran and dodged the draft, got deferments and those today who have no calling in life other than their self interest.
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Orange Blooded [4403]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3408
Joined: 9/29/09
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Vietnam is best viewed from the platoon or company level
Jun 3, 2015, 12:58 PM
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perspective in terms of books. "Fields of Fire" by James Webb is a masterpiece from the platoon level. "Matterhorn" by Karl Marlantes is a masterpiece from the company level. Both are novels but are so obviously about their author's units. They have admitted as much in interviews.
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Walk-On [126]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 379
Joined: 7/11/12
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History Channel? Did it tell you we won EVERY battle?***
Jun 3, 2015, 8:04 PM
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