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I'm still struggling to understand
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Replies: 73  

I'm still struggling to understand

emoji_events [12]
Jan 13, 2022, 4:43 PM

why fans are so upset with a coach who:

-is paid below average in the ACC
-runs a program that is funded below average in the ACC
-plays in front of one of the smallest crowds on average in the ACC
-leads a program that is historically among the worst in the ACC

but who wins at a higher rate than these numbers suggest, whose teams consistently play hard, all while graduating his players at a high rate with no behavior or off-the-court issues?

Given this, why do you think you should expect more from our team?

2022 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link

Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


The problem is not the coach

emoji_events [9]
Jan 13, 2022, 4:47 PM

The problem is the AD being content with all of what you listed.

That's the problem.

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Re: The problem is not the coach

emoji_events [6]
Jan 13, 2022, 4:51 PM

There's is nothing like justifying your contentment with mediocrity. Apparently, best is not standard with basketball.

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Re: The problem is not the coach

[3]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:08 PM

Correct. Best has never been the standard.

2022 purple level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link

Show Brad The Money!!!!


Jan 13, 2022, 5:36 PM

problem fixed.

2022 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link


Re: Show Brad The Money!!!!

[2]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:38 PM

User Logo
tiger_swimmer®
All-In [40508]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33097
Joined: 11/13/04
Show Brad The Money!!!!
Jan 13, 2022, 5:36 PM
Reply

problem fixed

bet that you can not even dog paddle much less swim

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siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh.

[3]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:43 PM

derp.

2022 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link


So you agree that it’s only fair to increase expectations of Brad


Jan 13, 2022, 7:17 PM

only if the athletic department provides him with more resources?

2022 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link

Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Yes! Settle for average suckers! That's all we deserve!***

[2]
Jan 13, 2022, 4:49 PM



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I’m not suggesting that we settle for average.


Jan 13, 2022, 7:18 PM

I’m suggesting that we support our basketball program above average (it’s currently supported below average) to see what our overachieving coach can do.

2022 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link

Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Re: I’m not suggesting that we settle for average.***


Jan 14, 2022, 6:36 PM



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You know, Judge Keller does have a point…***


Jan 14, 2022, 6:38 PM



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Will Brad coach better if we pay him more?

[3]
Jan 13, 2022, 4:50 PM

Simple yes or no works.

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Re: Will Brad coach better if we pay him more?

[2]
Jan 13, 2022, 4:53 PM

Excellent question

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Re: Will Brad coach better if we pay him more?

[3]
Jan 13, 2022, 4:59 PM

Well, throughout his tenure here his best seasons are those where he is either on a hot seat or his buyout was hitting a threshold drop following. So he may not perform better as a coach with more money, but he does perform better when the threat of losing the gravy train is in sight.

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Do you seriously think he tries harder if he is on the hot seat?


Jan 13, 2022, 7:21 PM

That’s a pretty bold accusation, since that implies that he doesn’t usually try very hard.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


No, I believe being on the hot seat brings out a more urgent


Jan 13, 2022, 8:25 PM

version of him that translates into more on court success. I think he tries just as hard, he just seems to perform at a higher level when under more job pressure.

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Judge Brownell is hoping Neff will want to try it and see

[1]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:39 PM

the only thing more ridiculous than how long Brad has pulled off this multi-million dollar scam, is to see if letting him scam even more money would make him a better coach.

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So you don’t have a problem with our poor support for basketball at Clemson?


Jan 13, 2022, 7:23 PM

You’re good with us being in the bottom portion of the ACC in the money we spend on basketball as well as our fan support for basketball?

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


I’m not arguing for paying Brad more.

[1]
Jan 13, 2022, 7:20 PM

I’m arguing for paying his assistants more, being able to hire more support staff, continuing to upgrade facilities, and having better crowds in Littlejohn.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


We had a top10 atmosphere before you got here

[3]
Jan 13, 2022, 7:30 PM

Purnell had great support from the fans. The problem isn’t the fans. It’s you. Fortunately your lame excuses are almost at an end.

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Again...This is a easy question...


Jan 14, 2022, 1:47 AM

You are claiming, over and over, Brad B is among the lowest paid coaches. You JUST stated it. So will more money make him coach better? Yes or no?

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Re: Will Brad coach better if we pay him more?


Jan 14, 2022, 10:28 PM

No.

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Re: I'm still struggling to understand

[1]
Jan 13, 2022, 4:51 PM

Best is the standard


Bloom where you are planted


The fun is in the winning

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null


It sounds like you agree that we aren’t supporting basketball at Clemson


Jan 13, 2022, 7:23 PM

the best we can.

Is that correct?

2022 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link

Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Re: I'm still struggling to understand

[3]
Jan 13, 2022, 4:52 PM

With the amount of support the university and fans give the basketball team, I expect nothing more from the team. I think that's why many fans want an upgraded coach. We all know it will cost more. A new coach may also generate some excitement.

2022 white level member flag link

"If a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal."


I read a lot of comments here about us paying Brownell “all that money.”


Jan 13, 2022, 7:26 PM

He ranks 9th in the ACC in salary based on 2021 data.

I’m not convinced that most of our fans would support an increase for a new coach.

Most of the posts I’ve seen imply that we should spend less on a young up and comer. Perhaps I’m reading that incorrectly though.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


You are reading that incorrectly...I would pay more for a...


Jan 14, 2022, 1:52 AM

good coach. Brad has been her for over a decade and accomplished nothing. Next man up. Paying him more won't make him a better coach.

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I think the excitement of a new coach is HUGE!

[1]
Jan 14, 2022, 1:50 AM

Brad is boring and average. Why go see a game with him as coach?

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Not to dispute you but didn't we do

[2]
Jan 13, 2022, 4:53 PM

Upgrades at Littlejohn and play in Greenville?

Not sure why it seems so but we win one and then lose one. There doesn't seem to be much magic. When Cliff Ellis was here in the 80's or Oliver Purnell we just seemed to have something this basketball program is missing right now. It's hard to follow when it seems so Jekyll and Hyde.


Message was edited by: AThomas®


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Gotta finally give it uP with “Nice Guy” BB!

emoji_events [6]
Jan 13, 2022, 4:59 PM

He’s super good guy, average coach, average win record, average recruiting abilities, average in decision making in many close games and loses..

Saying..if that’s what Fans, BOT & Administration wants..then you & them have him!

BUT, stop thinking he’s gonna do better!

He’s not!!!

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I agree!

[2]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:01 PM

Average is not something you want to shoot for.

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Re: I agree!

[4]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:48 PM

No it isn't AThomas or LBB. Love you to death Judge. Respect your persistence. Let's cover some history on a sport most people laughed at even being a sport.

Coach Larry Penley, paid peanuts. Had to scramble and work on his own to raise money via fundraising etc to get any facilities. He started having to share and rent a semi private cow pasture of a golf course just so his guys could practice. Most of their practice took place in our football parking lots.

What did he do? He didn't whine, he fought like he!! To generate interest, to talk young men to trust him and come to Clemson... While our northern neighbor had one of the greatest golfers ever lived in Arnold Palmer. He fought tobacco road and won. Many programs begged him to come to their program but he didn't run to the BOT and hold them hostage. Built little ole Clemson into one of the most respected programs in the country. The man could identify talent, and he could develop talent.

Apples and oranges, perhaps, perhaps not. Point being, that's what most Clemson fans desire and deserve in a basketball coach. In any coach. We finally got one in football with that same drive and desire. Got one in Soccer. Good start with one in softball. We've had one in tennis before. Most of these programs less football had zero history, zero fan support. Why not keep trying until we get one in basketball? Hopefully we'll get one in baseball soon too. Jmho.

2022 orange level member flag link

So even though Brad fought for our facility upgrades

[1]
Jan 13, 2022, 7:40 PM

including raising a lot of the money himself, and restructured his contract in exchange for some additional staff funding, he hasn’t fought hard enough to suit people?

The sad part is that Brad’s efforts are minimized here by people who have decided they don’t like him and nothing he says or does is good enough. I’m not saying that you are doing that, but many here do.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


We aren’t close to average the last four years.

[1]
Jan 13, 2022, 7:36 PM

Overall record was 77-47 overall. Not average at all.

ACC record is 39-33, with an average ACC finish of 6th (out of 15). That’s not average either.

I know it’s popular to say he’s average, but he isn’t. He’s above average. And he’s way above what should be expected based on our basketball history and support for basketball at Clemson (both of which are well below average).

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Re: We aren’t close to average the last four years.


Jan 14, 2022, 12:50 AM

Problem is the acc has never been as bad as it is or has been the last few seasons , atleast that I remember in my 34 years of being around … so while… so while we may be average or as you say above average now, we will stay there while other teams build back up … I like BB, he’s great for Clemson as far as a Clemson guy but unfortunately I just don’t think he’s a very good recruiter … and what I mean by that is not getting 4/5* guys… I mean evaluating talent like you see it every year in the tourney worfford, furman, etc all have 2-3 guys I’d take over what we have and we are 12 years in man… I also think his defense first system will not work long term… does defense travel , yes… gotta have Scorers and while we have shot it well this year we still don’t have a guy to rely on Late in games…

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39-33?!? Woooooo!! We are winners now!


Jan 14, 2022, 1:55 AM

Get your head out of your a$$! 39-33 isn't good.

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39-33 is good for Clemson basketball


Jan 14, 2022, 11:52 AM

and is much better than we should be based on what we invest in our basketball program.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


and we played better in Greenville.***

[1]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:41 PM



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Does someone have a list of ACC BB Coach salaries?

[2]
Jan 13, 2022, 4:59 PM

Is CB that underpaid?
Why hasn't someone snagged him away with more $.

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Here are some numbers for you.


Jan 13, 2022, 7:45 PM

This info from 2021 shows that he is 9th among ACC coaches:

https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach


This info from 2018 shows that he was 10th:

https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/sports/college/clemson/2018/04/26/clemson-basketball-coach-brad-brownell-likely-move-up-accs-salary-ladder/548954002/


As mentioned previously, he is outperforming his salary based on our average ACC finish of 6th the last four years.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Re: I'm still struggling to understand

[2]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:02 PM

You are an expert at copy and paste. The same info over and over and over. You need to be talking to the clemson bod. It is falling on deaf ears here.

2022 orange level member flag link

Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


Re: I'm still struggling to understand

[3]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:04 PM

You literally answered all of your own questions.

2022 white level member flag link

Re: I'm still struggling to understand

emoji_events [6]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:06 PM

So, your logic.
We pay BB more - he wins more? Most people are not motivated by money. They work hard or they don’t.
Have you thought that the small crowds are due to the coach not driving an exciting, winning program for a dozen years?
What does historically bad program do for you? Does that make us lose more games this year?

I don’t expect more from the team. I think they play hard and as they are told to do. I expect that Clemson try someone new to coach them. After 12 years, the needle is not moving.

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Re: I'm still struggling to understand

[4]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:10 PM

One could argue Brownell is not the symptom of the 4 issues you posted but the cause of it.

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Re: I'm still struggling to understand

[1]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:16 PM

Do you think since he’s paid below average that he’s not trying to coach as hard? I’m just trying to understand the relevance of his pay to the product he puts on the court. Does he not recruit as hard since he makes less? You mention this every time the topic is brought up and I just don’t understand the relevance? Are you saying we are getting what we are paying for, below average and if we paid another coach more we would win more games?

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I've noticed a disturbing trend with your posts, Judge.

[2]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:16 PM

The more you defend Brownell on here, season after season after season, the worse our home attendance and fan enthusiasm gets, season after season after season.

Just a little bit more frequency on your part and we might finally get the opportunity to move on.

Go Tigers.

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Are you saying

[4]
Jan 13, 2022, 7:23 PM

people are not inspired by being told they should lower their expectations?

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I’m not asking anyone to lower their expectations.


Jan 14, 2022, 11:15 PM

I’m asking people to stop having champagne taste on a beer budget.

Wanting to win more is great, but be willing to support the program at a level commensurate with those goals.

Why do you think it’s okay to fund basketball at one of the lowest levels in the ACC, and then complain about finishing 6th out of 15 teams on average the last four years?!?

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


The salary of the head coach is low because the

[4]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:26 PM

coach seems OK with a below average salary in the ACC. The coach seems to accept a lower funded program in the ACC.

The lack of excitement makes the games seem more like a scrimmage than a college basketball game. I bought season tickets during the Rick Barnes era, and drove up from the midlands to attend every game. Littlejohn was rocking in those days.

I was a student in the late 70's/early 80's,and Clemson made it to one Final 8. We lost to UCLA to keep us out of the final four.Those games in the late 70s/early 80's included wins over great Duke and UNC teams at home.

If Clemson hires a coach that brings excitement to Littlejohn Coliseum, then our team and fans will bring excitement back to Littlejohn.

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Amen! I was there for Purnell. I know what Littlejohn can


Jan 14, 2022, 1:56 AM

look like.

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Re: The salary of the head coach is low because the


Jan 14, 2022, 6:17 PM

Yes but Barnes ran for Texas cause of cash just not man enough say it

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Re: The salary of the head coach is low because the


Jan 14, 2022, 6:17 PM

Yes but Barnes ran for Texas cause of cash just not man enough say it

2022 orange level member flag link

Re: The salary of the head coach is low because the


Jan 14, 2022, 6:19 PM

Yes but Barnes ran for Texas cause of cash just not man enough say it

2022 orange level member flag link

I am wired to always try to do better. Clemson basketball has become boring to watch.

[1]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:35 PM

I know im not the best fan but when I was younger never missed games on tv and had season tickets when I lived near Asheville. I’ve lived away for 20 plus years now due to Air Force and now relocating for job. I used to watch every time I could find it on tv. I don’t anymore. It is just plain blah. Our leader is not passionate seems fine with status quo. Shows no evidence of trying to be better. If I was that blah/underperforming at my job I would step down out of respect for myself and my job. How about he just come out and say I’m going to be 49% in the acc year after year and strive to be mediocre. If the fans and infrastructure aren’t enough for him then move on to bigger and better jobs. Truth is no one would take him.


Message was edited by: lovingit®


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Re: I'm still struggling to understand


Jan 13, 2022, 5:37 PM

Because some fans would not be happy with Christ as a coach if his team lost a game. Blame the coach or the ref.

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I think 12 years is a good representative

[2]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:42 PM

Sample of BB 's potential. I am not a big time basketball fan like I am for football and baseball but like others said I too used to watch the TV games but quit seeking them out several years ago. Passion just didn't seem to be there.


Message was edited by: AThomas®


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once again, I'll bite.

emoji_events [7]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:38 PM

"-is paid below average in the ACC'
Brad Brownell was paid more than Dabo Swinney when he first became head coach at Clemson. Let that sink in for a second. Brownell's initial compensation was greater than the head coach of the football program. Their respective salaries today are entirely indicative of their respective success. His salary has absolutely nothing to do with his ability to win and is entirely indicative of his failure to do so.

"Plays in front of one of the smallest crowds on average in the ACC"
Attendance has declined steadily during his tenure. The 19-20 season was only the 2nd season since 1970 with less than 7000 average attendances. Home attendance was not affected by covid that year. Is the coach completely untethered from fan expectations? The final 3 seasons of Purnell's tenure average 8850 attendance. Brownell's last 3 seasons averaged 7197. That's a nearly 20% decline. Does that possibly suggest the AD continually reupping Brownell's contract is at odds with fan desires and expectations? Attendance at any and all sporting events correlates to the success of the program. If someone wanted to go to the trouble of indexing ACC average attendance by season versus win/loss records I bet you would find that Clemson is not much of an outlier on attendance. Motivating a fanbase and generating excitement are part of the job.

"leads a program that is historically among the worst in the ACC"
unless you're arguing there is an environmental or geographic impediment that will forever prevent Clemson from winning at basketball then this is a red herring and should have nothing to do with evaluating an individual coaches. If you believe it then there would be no point in caring one wat or another what Clemson does with basketball. Organization obstacles (i.e. financing, resources, facilities) can be overcome and it should also be part of a coach's responsibilities to clearly communicate these issues.

"runs a program that is funded below average in the ACC"
The only point that could hold any validity is still pretty slim. Brownell was paid well when he was hired - more than our football coach. His tenure has not been successful, yet he has parlayed that into a string of raises that will culminate in him making $3 million a year. Program funding and it is evaluated can be tricky. But basketball carries much smaller rosters, much smaller staff, and need smaller facilities. One school maybe amortizing the cost of a $50 million facility improvement as a part of their basketball budget while another is paying it through an entirely different department. If we agree that the head coach's salary doesn't actually make him a better coach, then the question remains does he have adequate facilities and budget for assistant coaches? The facilities are almost brand new and were designed under his watch. He should be holding an advantage in this column. So we're down to whether he has adequate budget for staff. So, is Brad Brownell actually being stymied by the AD from hiring the personnel he thinks he needs to win? That's it. That's the only way "funded below average" is actually losing us games. So is that really happening. Is a guy, set to make over $30 million from Clemson over his tenure, losing games because he doesn't know how to negotiate staff salaries? It's part of the job too.

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Re: once again, I'll bite.

[1]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:39 PM

vizcoot been googling again. nice

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Re: once again, I'll bite.

[1]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:54 PM

I love you deroberts. Don't always agree with you but love you nonetheless.

2022 orange level member flag link

Brad makes more than Hamilton at FSU...

[1]
Jan 13, 2022, 5:39 PM

He has accomplished a lot more than Brad. Jim L also makes less and he has been there the same time as Brad.

Also lot of these coaches are new so they are paid more or less what their scale would be.

Id say Brad is paid pretty good considering what he has acomplished. 3 NCAAT in 11 years. ok.

link:

https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2020/12/3/21959417/acc-coaches-salaries-mike-krzyzewski-roy-williams-tony-bennett-jim-boeheim-mike-young-josh-pastner


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Villanova = $9.4M in Expenses

[3]
Jan 13, 2022, 6:02 PM

I believe Clemson spends less than $9.4M. But if we want to win a championship, JK is right... we need to pony up to get a much better coach.

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Just pack your things and get out

[2]
Jan 13, 2022, 7:27 PM

We want a different coach. We would like to try hiring a coach who believes that we should make the tournament more than once every 4 years, likes the facility and arena upgrades we’ve made, and wants to highlight all the great things about our university instead of tearing it down.

It’s obvious you’ll never be more than a decent mid-major coach. Which is fine. Just go back there and stop with all the lies and anti-Clemson propaganda.


We want someone else. Period.

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Alright. I’m now convinced you’re a relative..


Jan 13, 2022, 7:59 PM

You are related to Brownell. I mean come on. There are so many less able schools that have done better in basketball.

What’s your relation?

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How many power 5 schools spend what we do or less


Jan 14, 2022, 11:18 PM

and have the success you want us to have?

My guess is very few, if any.

I’ll wait for you to get back to me.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Re: I'm still struggling to understand

[2]
Jan 13, 2022, 8:10 PM

You’re not “still struggling”. You understand. You just don’t want to admit it.

Watching you toe-lick an under accomplished basketball coach with one hand while slapping down every perceived weak point of a most remarkable football story of the 21st century with the other offers more struggle to comprehend for any honest broker.

As I’ve said before, your game is old and increasingly identified for what it is. You’re sad.

2022 purple level member flag link

He’s only “under-accomplished” in the screwed up minds of Clemson fans


Jan 14, 2022, 11:23 PM

who have no problem supporting basketball at low level but still expect the coach to win big.

Don’t blame Brownell because you’re being cheap and unreasonable.

I expect more from football when we pay our coaches more than any other program in the country and have the best facilities in the country, and can basically sleep walk our way through a weak football conference to get to the playoffs. When you have a nearly unfair advantage over just about every team you play, more is going to be expected. Sorry.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Every loser I’ve ever known has had a list of reasons why he’s a loser

[2]
Jan 13, 2022, 8:12 PM

I have absolutely no pity for the sad stories of losers. As someone who started with nothing and now wants for nothing, you can achieve great things if you just set your mind on them. Clemson basketball can be great, but they need a leader who doesn’t worry about the past and the so-called “limitations” placed on him and will simply go out there and win.

I mean who on earth would have thought Dabo Sweeney would take Clemson to play in four national championship games and win two of them in the span of five years? exactly no one. Clemson doesn’t have the best tradition in the country in football, or the best facilities, or the most money. What they had was a coach who believes he could win at all, and was willing to do the work. What basketball has is a coach who is happy to take a paycheck and as long as Team finishes in the middle of the pack, he’s happy.

Clemson deserves better and can find better. I’d rather finish last in the league every year than accept because of my “disadvantages”, I have no chance to win the league, .. ever

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It’s Swinney, not Sweeney.


Jan 14, 2022, 11:19 PM

I know the redneck pronunciation sounds like Sweeney, but it’s still spelled Swinney.

Please spell his name right. Thanks.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Re: I'm still struggling to understand


Jan 14, 2022, 2:24 AM

He’s in control of fan attendance. It is his job to keep fans/donors/alumni/students engaged with the program. If he isn’t winning anything and isn’t connecting with the fans, he is failing.

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Re: I'm still struggling to understand


Jan 14, 2022, 1:16 PM

Im not upset with Brownell. He made some mistakes this year and i dont know what happened at ND. It was like the team just wasnt into the game or something. But sometimes you have an off night.

I think things could definitely get worse, so unless we really have someone better that we can get- i dont see the point. We are competitive and just to make a change to make a change doesnt make sense to me.

I wonder if we should just go all in on NIL opportunities? Would could see if we focus on NIL if we can get better players than the transfer portal offers.

I would also be interested in the breakdown of season ticket holders and their thoughts on brownell. Those are the people most invested in the program and spend the most money on it. I wonder if some of the haters dont even go to the games or support the team?

I am wondering because in my section i never hear these brownell has to go type conversations. I did hear that when tommy bowden was in his last years in my football section. It was often and loud :)

Unscientific analysis of course.

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Re: I'm still struggling to understand

[2]
Jan 14, 2022, 7:37 PM

the title of your thread defines you.

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


What happened to our guards? If they had just played


Jan 14, 2022, 10:37 PM

their average 3 pt. shooting, we would have been in that game to the end.

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You will just continue to struggle to understand...


Jan 14, 2022, 11:08 PM

...ad nauseam.

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"When I was 6 my Mother let me have a kitten. It died. Don't send prayers, a TU is better." - tugalooriver circa 2022


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