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Topic: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building
Replies: 54   Last Post: Jun 23, 2020, 1:13 AM by: tigerdrummer®
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I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

emoji_events [18]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 8:55 AM
 

Tillman Hall was originally called the Main Building. Ben Tillman's name should be removed.

You should only name buildings/places/things after people whom you honor.

This is long overdue and has been openly discussed since at least 2003 - when I was a student.

Matt Bowling, Clemson University, Class of 2004.

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"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives." - Jackie Robinson


Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 9:08 AM
 

I'm curious then; do you also support removing the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial in our nation's capital? Where does it stop? When is enough "enough"?

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

[3]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 10:06 AM
 

Thats the big question.....where does it stop. We went through all of this just a few years ago and now we are on round 2 of ridding the US of anything offensive to minorities. Really when you get down to it, everything is on the table.

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

emoji_events [6]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 11:20 AM
 

You stop when statues and memorials celebrating vile and gross causes are removed and names of building are changed so regressive and hateful people are no longer celebrated. It’s easy actually

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

[2]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 2:19 PM
 

So, its the statues and memorials? Then its solved, racism is over, right? its thats simple.

Not to mention you have Calhoun's house sitting there...thats not offensive? Even has the plantation name....what your plan for that?

Also many symbols out there that people will never even know. I'll give you a great example....in Lexington Ky they removed two statues a few years back sitting on the old courthouse square...1) John Hunt Morgan and 2) John C Breckenridge. This was for the same reasons and the wokeness was flowing....however, unbeknownst to the masses the same two streets those statues sit on are called Upper and Cheapside. Lexington was a big slave trade market (as was Louisville) and the street names are self-explanatory. But last time I checked, those street names still exist with a historical marker there as well.

Maybe those reminders are ok but its things like that in which make the whole removal of memorials a farce.

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

emoji_events [6]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 5:54 PM
 

You nailed it here. Our society is programmed now to be “offended”. It’s really pathetic how soft it’s gotten and continues to get. History is history and can’t be changed, but it needs to be taught and learned from. Ben Tillman has flaws just like all people do, and his name is not on a building because his flaws are being celebrated. It’s there because he was instrumental in founding an institution of higher learning. People really need to get a clue and understand the reality of that.

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

[2]
Posted: Jun 21, 2020, 6:49 PM
 

Gotta add the 13 stripes on the American Flag as well as Market Street in Downtown Charleston to the list. I really do wonder when/if it will ever end. People get offended over ANYTHING now.

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 4:15 PM
 

“celebrated?” who is celebrating?

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

[1]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 8:28 PM
 

How old are ??? Let’s get rid of all history??? Ever heard of Hitler ???

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building


Posted: Jun 21, 2020, 7:23 PM
 

So question for you. BET, Historically Black Colleges, and the N word feel un-inclusive and insensitive to me. They don’t seem to share the “everyone is equal” goal we are trying to achieve as a society. Should those be changed, removed, etc?

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

[3]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 6:02 PM
 

Washington and Jefferson are nowhere close to as despicable as Tillman. This is a tired argument.

Tillman and Calhoun were not "Founding Fathers". Calhoun nearly started the Civil War 40 years before it actually broke out in pushing for "state nullification" during the Nullification Crisis. One need only look at his writings to see why he was a despicable human being too.

Here's a few Tillman quotes:

"We of the South have never recognized the right of the Negro to govern white men, and we never will. We have never believed him to be the equal of the white man, and we will not submit to his gratifying his lust on our wives and daughters without lynching him."

"We deny, without regard to color, that 'all men are created equal'; it is not true now, and was not true when Jefferson wrote it."

Neither Washington nor Jefferson said anything remotely that vile. That's why it's a good place to start with Tillman. It was only called "Tillman Hall" (when originally was "Old Main" for most of its existence) during Jim Crow to send a message to black families in the State that they had no place at Clemson. It's abundantly obvious why the name was changed.

Just admit you don't like certain groups of people and get on with it.

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 9:56 PM
 

Yeah, but their name is on a building. If we remove it, the sky will fall.

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building


Posted: Jun 22, 2020, 5:43 PM
 

Then why are statues of Washington and Jefferson currently being torn down or targeted for removal? That’s the problem with your argument. You may only be offended by Confederate names and statues, but there are others out there that seem to be equally offended by Washington, Jefferson, Columbus, etc. so where should the line be drawn?

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Progressives have no line. They say they have a line...

[1]
Posted: Jun 23, 2020, 1:08 AM
 

but they don't. They're always looking for a "problem" to solve.

They've just went after syrup and microwave rice. What's next?

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There's something in these hills.


Once the truly, unquestionably evil white slavers and


Posted: Jun 23, 2020, 1:06 AM
 

segregationists are removed from sight, the more mild-mannered ones will be removed (Washington, Jefferson, ...Clemson). So on and so forth.

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There's something in these hills.


Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 2:24 PM
 


I'm curious then; do you also support removing the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial in our nation's capital? Where does it stop? When is enough "enough"?



One has nothing to do with the other. We should change the name of Tillman because it’s the right thing to do given what we know about Tillman. Best is the standard and honoring a guy by naming a building who murdered + lynched people based on the color is not the best we can do.

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

[3]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 2:53 PM
 

It's a quite easy distinction.

In the Old Main/Tillman Hall issue, the building was renamed in 1962 to honor a dishonorable person. When there is no longer societal acceptance for doing that, then commemoration can be removed and restored.

The same exercise happened in Eastern Europe. A city in East Germany was known as Chemnitz for years and during the communist era was renamed Karl-Marx-Stadt. In 1990, after the wall fell, it returned back to Chemnitz.

Same thing happened in the Soviet Union (Stalingrad > Volgograd, Leningrad > St. Petersburg).

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Saigon -> Ho Chi Minh City***


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 5:57 PM
 



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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

[1]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 6:06 PM
 

According to records Tillman hall was named such in 1946. https://tigerprints.clemson.edu/trustees_minutes/427/
(https://tigerprints.clemson.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1426&context=trustees_minutes) See page 35.

MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE CLEMSON AGRICULTURAL COLLEGE, HELD AT THE COLLEGE, FRIDAY, JUNE 28, 1946

Adopted
46. In accordance with the report of the Buildings and Grounds Committee it was recommended that the following names be given to certain buildings and roads on the campus:
1 . Main Building -- Tillman Hall
2. Road parallel with the highway near the peach orchard on which the pre-fabricated houses are located --Morrison Road

3.New road near Hanover House -- Colonial Circle
4. Barracks 1 -- Simpson Hall
5. Barracks 2 --Johnstone Hall

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 8:31 PM
 

Don’t confuse the confused

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building


Posted: Jun 21, 2020, 7:48 PM
 

You have to draw the line somewhere, and I think this is a good start. Currently we've had no line

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Ok its removed now, i just mandated it...carry on.***

[1]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 9:10 AM
 



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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 11:11 AM
 

I’m 100% with you. A vile and despicable person like Tillman with his disgusting background and ideology has no business being honored in any fashion on campus. Period.

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

[4]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 2:37 PM
 

I'm an alum and I stand for not changing any names of any buildings.

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Matt, I would love to know your criteria

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 3:46 PM
 

for honoring someone in this day and age.

To me, Tillman's name on a building has nothing to do with his stance on slavery, and everything to do with the pivotal role he played in the forming of our fine university.

No one is perfect, so how close to perfect must someone be before you feel it is appropriate to honor them?

Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, but played a pivotal role in the early years of our country. Should we remove the Jefferson Memorial in Washington, DC and also remove his likeness from our currency?

Martin Luther King, Jr. was a key figure in the civil rights movement, but he was a serial adulterer. Should we honor him for his accomplishments despite cheating on multiple innocent women?

These are but a couple of examples of people who did very important things, but who were clearly flawed.

I look forward to hearing your responses.

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People aren't asking for it to be renamed because

[2]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 3:51 PM
 

Tillman owned slaves. They're asking for it because he was a murderer and a terrorist.

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Regardless, my point still stands.

[2]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 3:54 PM
 

We aren't honoring or celebrating those negative things. We are acknowledging the important role he played in our university's founding.

I don't understand why people can't see the good and forgive the bad.

And even though you aren't Matt, I would like to know your answers to my questions in my previous post. The premise is that if someone was too bad in some area of their life, then the good they did isn't worthy of being recognized. What's the cutoff?

Slavery invalidates your candidacy but cheating on your wife doesn't?
Killing someone invalidates your candidacy but being arrested for assault and battery doesn't?

It's getting ridiculous.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Hitler did some good things for Germany***


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 3:55 PM
 



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You're being ridiculous.

[1]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 3:57 PM
 

Just how "bad" does a person have to be for it to be unacceptable to honor their positive contributions?

Tell us the criteria. There has to be one, so what is it?

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Dunno, here are some Ben Tillman quotes

[1]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 4:02 PM
 

“Lynch law is all we have left.”

“I believe they are men, but some of them are so near akin to the monkey that scientists
are yet looking for the missing link.”

“I will say to the Senator, that as long as the Negroes continue to ravish white women we
will continue to lynch them.”

"We have never believed [the Negro] to be the equal of the white man, and we will not submit to his gratifying his lust on our wives and daughters without lynching him."

He declared if all [Negroes] were shot like wild beasts the country would be better off, but that was unlawful. Therefore.. they should be placed on chain gangs until they reformed or left the country.

Nazi ideology was inspired in part by American racists like Henry Ford and the Confederates, so it's not necessarily that ridiculous.

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Re: Hitler did some good things for Germany***


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 8:39 PM
 

Name them. ???

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Germany started a war with THE WORLD... Twice


Posted: Jun 22, 2020, 5:46 PM
 

And he gave Hugo Boss his start. Ok I’m out.

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Judge, here is my post from earlier on a separate thread:

[2]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 6:18 PM
 

First, to address a few of the comments on my earlier posts, I very well recognize that removing a name from a building/place/thing requires us to apply a value judgment.

I hold a Master of Arts degree in history and a Master of Historic Preservation. I get it, I really do.

Second, it is perfectly acceptable to apply a value judgment on people from the past (especially those we chose to honor).

Throughout human history value judgments have been made on the actions of those who came before us.

Third, each person that we chose to honor needs to be looked at in totality. It is not as simple as this “person did X and thus should or should not be honored.”

I’m placing a value judgment on John C. Calhoun and Benjamin Tillman. IN TOTALITY, neither were good men or even decent men. They were openly racist and advocated for white supremacy. They looked out for their own interest and the interest of those that looked like them and practiced their same religion. In short, they sure as #### knew better and still chose ignorance and hate.

You are #### right that I’m passing judgment on them. They should not be honored by Clemson University. Clemson was founded in 1889, over two decades after the Civil War. It was built on lands that once belonged to John C. Calhoun and lands that belonged to Native Americans before him. John C. Calhoun had as much to do with the university as the Native Americans who owned the land before him.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, insert other historical figure here, were slave owners. They had significant character flaws. They also helped lead the Continental Army during The Revolution and laid the framework for the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and the UNITED STATES as we know it.

So, yes, in totality, we should recognize their positive contributions to America, democracy, and the world. They deserve to be honored and recognized. Because of their ideas, we are having these conversations today and are working towards equality and equity In ways thought impossible in 1776. But we still have a loooooooonnnnnnggggg way to go.

Calhoun and Tillman spread vitriol and hate, their ideas would have left us divided and without hope.

Stop with this “it’s a slippery slope” nonsense.

GO TIGERS!
MB

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"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives." - Jackie Robinson


Re: Judge, here is my post from earlier on a separate thread:

[1]
Posted: Jun 21, 2020, 2:52 PM
 

I think a good criteria to judge whether the person being honored is worthy of that honor is asking why the person should be honored.

To use Ben Tillman as an example- ben Tillman is known for being a vile racist and openly sought to degrade and murder people based solely on the color of their skin. By contrast, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington are known primarily for their contributions to the founding of our nation. As a result, Tillman deserves no place of honor anywhere.

I love Clemson just as much as anyone else, and I am proud of the leadership this school has. To leave Tillman’s name on Main Building is holding on to history. Let it go. The plaque commemorating Harvey Gantt’s admission and the desegregation of Clemson is as important to the history of Clemson as a white supremacist who happened to advocate for the founding of the school. Those who divert from the issues at hand are showing themselves to be stuck in an outdated mindset. Clemson has made conscious efforts to evolve into a university people of all backgrounds want to come to, and be proud of. Honoring Tillman does not promote progress.

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Re: Judge, here is my post from earlier on a separate thread:


Posted: Jun 22, 2020, 11:49 AM
 

Well said Matt. I love my university and don't want it damaged by the names on colleges and buildings. We at Clemson are encouraging blacks to attend Clemson with our Men of Color symposium and other efforts. These names from the past hurt that effort. I don't know why its so hard for some of us to acknowledge that in total Ben Tillman was a horrible person who does not deserve the honor of having our main building named for him. I also agree that Calhoun was a bad choice for the name of our honors college. He had absolutely nothing to do with Clemson University and was a traitor to our country.
I also agree that other names will be changed in the future it it will be a case by case decision. People who argue to remove the names of Washington and Jefferson simply don't have the intellectual honesty to argue against the name changes of Tillman and Calhoun on their own merit.

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Re: Judge, here is my post from earlier on a separate thread:

[1]
Posted: Jun 22, 2020, 4:02 PM
 

Matthetiger, you are so correct! There is no slippery slope argument! No one wants to tear down monuments to George Washington.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/503559-george-washington-statue-vandalized-and-toppled-by


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Nope, reasonable people will make reasonable decisions on a case by case basis.

[1]
Posted: Jun 22, 2020, 5:57 PM
 

Those examples were not decisions made by reasonable people.

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"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives." - Jackie Robinson


Re: Nope, reasonable people will make reasonable decisions on a case by case basis.


Posted: Jun 22, 2020, 8:22 PM
 

Matthetiger, I think you are getting close to the point! I also am a Clemson Grad. I have no problem with changing the name of Tillman Hall. But most of what is being done in this country is to use your words "by people who are not being reasonable". Statues of Washington, Jefferson, Columbus, Grant, and many others are being torn down. This is the greatest country ever founded. It has freed more people than any other country. It has never been perfect and is still trying to achieve that goal. America is evolving and always will be evolving. But burning down a Wendy's and looting stores or burning down a Target is not the way to improve things. I am older than you. But I remember a CBS Reports (1964) "D-Day Plus 20 Years-Eisenhower Returns to Normandy" with Walter Cronkite. I suggest you take a look at the on YouTube.If you don't watch the whole hour plus I suggest you watch the last 7 minutes. See what General Eisenhower had to say about Americans buried at the American Cemetery at Normandy. This is the best example I can think of America and her ideals. The link to the show is below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNaxTXfjfXk

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Who determines the reasonability of people?***


Posted: Jun 23, 2020, 1:13 AM
 



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There's something in these hills.


I agree with everything that you said except the last line.


Posted: Jun 23, 2020, 1:11 AM
 

This is absolutely a slippery slope. What's next on the change agenda?

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There's something in these hills.


Judge, I don’t know if I can link a post within a reply


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 4:12 PM
 

But here is an explanation (hope this works):

https://www.tigernet.com/forum/thread/The-Slippery-Slope-FALLACY-1997217?tstart=0

Let me know if that link worked.

MB

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"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives." - Jackie Robinson


Re: Judge, I don’t know if I can link a post within a reply


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 8:15 PM
 

Are you related to the Bolling’s of Virginia? I know that some changed the spelling to Bowling over time, and that you live in Va. Just wondered if you had any connection to Bolling Isle Plantation on the James?

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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 4:07 PM
 

I agree with Matt, however the only way it can be re-named is by the South Carolina General Assembly.

The South Carolina Heritage Act of 2000 requires the Senate and House to pass by a two-thirds vote any changes to war monuments or public property named for historical figures. The law prevents communities – local governments, school districts, or colleges and universities – from deciding the fate of monuments and the names of structures or buildings.

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Well, if Matt Bowling wants it...


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 4:15 PM
 

It must be done.

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Not cool, I did not want to hide behind a screen name. And

[4]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 4:22 PM
 

It’s not just me, but other graduates, current students, former student athletes, and professors. All of whom care deeply about the institution.

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"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives." - Jackie Robinson


I don't really care if they re-name Tillman Hall.


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 5:13 PM
 

But i don't like negotiating with terrorist, and the BLM movement is quasi-terrorism.

"Until our demands are met the looting, rioting and protests will continue!"

And by the way, changing a name won't change the heart of a bitter, angry person who clings to past injustices of 200 years ago. There is nothing that is going to satiate that hate.

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"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car."

"I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it."


Re: I don't really care if they re-name Tillman Hall.


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 9:43 PM
 

"And by the way, changing a name won't change the heart of a bitter, angry person who clings to past injustices of 200 years ago. There is nothing that is going to satiate that hate."

It's funny you describe those who want Tillman Hall renamed as 'bitter, angry people clinging to past injustices of 200 years ago.' and then go on to say 'There is nothing that is going to satiate that hate', all the while defending the idea to keep honoring a man who promoted lynching and by all accounts was terrible. It's sad that you'd describe people like Deshaun Watson and DeAndre Hopkins in that manner, too, considering what they've meant to our university and how well they've represented themselves. There are certainly bad people on both sides, but portraying the entire population of "the opposition" in that way isn't right.

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Re: I don't really care if they re-name Tillman Hall.


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 9:53 PM
 

I misread what you said in regards to changing the name of the building...however I still think it's a bad move to try to paint those you disagree with with such a broad brush.

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well thats great that you want it matt...

[1]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 5:30 PM
 

the majority of us see where this is going... wont be long before you come after TG Clemson.

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"I love this place, I've got a spot already picked out where I want 'em to put me when I die - up there on that ole hill near the stadium. I want to be there so I can hear all them people cheering my Tigers on Saturdays; then I won't have to go Heaven; I'll already be there."- Frank Howard


It has also been suggested that U.S. currency needs to be


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 5:38 PM
 

changed. That'll be the next thing. And a hundred years from now there will still be angry minorities who can't let go of their past, and will want the name of the country to be changed.

Make all the concessions that are asked(and the list grows by the minute) and it still will NEVER be enough to extinguish the hate that comes form the mentality of victimhood.

I think Tillman Hall needs to have the name changed, but that is an issue that needs to be addressed on its on.

I also condemn the killing of George Floyd and all people by police that treat people as livestock. The officers should face the law and get lawful punishment.

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"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car."

"I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it."


You’re safe. You are on the right side of history.***


Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 6:00 PM
 



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Re: I stand for removing Ben Tillman's name f/the Main Building

[1]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020, 4:28 PM
 

The 2000 South Carolina Heritage Law prohibits the changing of the name of state buildings and other properties named for historical figures. The law will have to be changed first before it's possible, so start there. Clemson can't change it.

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Great! Now sit down and shut up about it, I’m tired of

[1]
Posted: Jun 21, 2020, 5:08 PM
 

Hearing about how bad that building has made your life. One day we’ll look back at how ridiculous all this was.

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No, I won’t sit down and shut up about it. I will stop when we have liberty and justice for all***


Posted: Jun 22, 2020, 5:54 PM
 



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"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives." - Jackie Robinson


Tillman was responsible for appropriating state $ to build Clemson***


Posted: Jun 21, 2020, 7:18 PM
 



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