|
Replies: 36
| visibility 1
|
Head Coach [790]
TigerPulse: 50%
Posts: 1512
Joined: 8/3/16
|
|
|
|
 |
Lot o points [155901]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65819
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Yes, everyone is clearly against plain old "immigration" and
Jan 14, 2022, 3:13 PM
|
|
not just the illegal variety.
Also, you understand that this servant underclass that you wish to perpetuate actually artificially depresses the wage floor, preventing natural market wage hikes to points where Americans WOULD perform the jobs? Illegal immigration, more than anything else, has stagnated wages for the last 20 years while keeping the minimum wage at a point the left doesn't consider a living wage.
So your wish to continue bringing in illegal immigrants runs completely counter to (what I assume is) your opinion that we need a higher federal minimum wage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1315]
TigerPulse: 74%
Posts: 8987
Joined: 1/25/11
|
Re: Yes, everyone is clearly against plain old "immigration" and
Jan 14, 2022, 3:55 PM
|
|
Obed, thanks for the voice of reason. However, UK, who is a bit unhinged the last few days (after hibernating), ain't gonna like your facts, logic and common sense. He's mostly into cheap shots and doing battle with anybody on the right that presents a cogent narrative. But, he's on a huge losing streak right now, so get ready for some vitriol! LMAO
JBFFJ
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18023]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30155
Joined: 9/9/06
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155901]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65819
Joined: 5/6/13
|
I’m saying that at current levels of legal immigration, if
Jan 14, 2022, 4:25 PM
|
|
You eliminated the illegal variety, employers would have three choices: raise wages to a point that enticed domestic workers (and prices would go up as well), implement increased automation (also raising prices), or close. Some of all three would happen, but the inflation from raised prices via some fairly natural market forces is long overdue, and would also have a long overdue impact on wages further up the middle class line.
What’s unnatural, market-wise, is that as employers are seeking to find the Level at which domestic employees will come back to work, they’re in direct competition against govt entitlement spending, which pushes that bar further northward.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Head Coach [790]
TigerPulse: 50%
Posts: 1512
Joined: 8/3/16
|
Re: I’m saying that at current levels of legal immigration, if
Jan 14, 2022, 4:30 PM
|
|
So you have no issues with $15 minimum wage and prices being raised at stores to meet these market requirements?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155901]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65819
Joined: 5/6/13
|
If it's from natural forces, absolutely.
Jan 14, 2022, 4:53 PM
|
|
When it's raised by private employers having to compete for labor against Uncle Sam sweetening the pot to stay home, it's problematic....there are always unintended consequences like we're seeing today in the labor market.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Head Coach [790]
TigerPulse: 50%
Posts: 1512
Joined: 8/3/16
|
Re: If it's from natural forces, absolutely.
Jan 14, 2022, 5:22 PM
|
|
Exactly what sweeteners is Uncle Sam offering? Pandemic related payments have long since been retired and states like Missouri showed that pandemic era payments had no effect on the labor participation rate.
The reason we are in a crunch is because
1) trump eliminated legal immigration to this country. Not illegal. LEGAL. So we had a significant drain of immigrants leaving and new ones not coming in
2) the pandemic led to a large portion of boomers just retiring. Thus we are seeing an elevation of individuals throughout the work system with no one to back fill
So here’s the deal. Let’s open the borders again to enable significant immigration. Eliminate the need to have people come in illegally and thus ending human and sex trafficking. Have them come in and pay their taxes and fill roles which are not being filled.
What is the counter to this argument? What are people on this board so afraid of by allowing these people in?
I’ll tell you … it’s xenophobia and racism. They’re afraid of losing their fantasy land of white culture in this country. Of living with individuals who may not speak English as a first language and they makes them inferior. With individuals who will out work and out earn them. They’re afraid their America is disappearing. And you know what? It is. It’s changing for the better. The melting pot that America is. The inclusion of anyone regardless of race, creed or color.
So let’s be honest there and not dance around the issue because there is no economic argument to deny open immigrant right now. The chamber of commerce just did you in
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155901]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65819
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Why do you lie so much?
Jan 14, 2022, 5:39 PM
|
|
Let's look at this blatant lie: "Trump eliminated legal immigration to this country". Here's some data for you....
Number of Green Cards Issued
Total Naturalizations
Nonimmigrant visas issued, excluding tourist and business visas
USCIS Approvals of Petitions for H-1B Workers
Visas Approved for Seasonal Workers, FY 2009-20
U.S. Grants of Asylum, FY 1990-2019
|
|
|
|
|
|
Head Coach [790]
TigerPulse: 50%
Posts: 1512
Joined: 8/3/16
|
Re: Why do you lie so much?
Jan 14, 2022, 5:57 PM
|
|
Not sure what you’re trying to show?
Green cards issued all declined from 2017-19 by more than 10% (hard to tell on the Bar charts)
Naturalization increased in 17-19 because of everyone given a green card during the Obama years. So we’re hitting their time limits.
Everything else shows a significant decline (outside of asylum which did increase but only by 10,000 or so people tops. Which is significantly less than the hundreds of thousands of others prevented from entering
So again. What are you showing here?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155901]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65819
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Re: Why do you lie so much?
Jan 14, 2022, 6:41 PM
|
|
"Green cards issued all declined from 2017-19 by more than 10% (hard to tell on the Bar charts)"
And averaged higher than Obama's average
"Naturalization increased in 17-19 because of everyone given a green card during the Obama years. So we’re hitting their time limits."
If you want to play that game, Trump gave out more Green Cards than Obama, by annual average, so expect an even bigger increase in naturalizations under Biden.
"Everything else shows a significant decline (outside of asylum which did increase but only by 10,000 or so people tops. "
Awww, c'mon, let's use the percentage method you used earlier to try to minimize these numbers. Trump's best year was 200% of Obama's best year (or any other year of the past 30 years, excepting the start of the 2nd Iraq war).
"So again. What are you showing here?"
Just that, like so many of your arguments that you drop of out, this is complete and total BS, and as big of a lie as has been told on this board. "1) trump eliminated legal immigration to this country. Not illegal. LEGAL. So we had a significant drain of immigrants leaving and new ones not coming in "
|
|
|
|
|
|
Head Coach [790]
TigerPulse: 50%
Posts: 1512
Joined: 8/3/16
|
Re: Why do you lie so much?
Jan 14, 2022, 6:54 PM
|
|
Obama had a significant ramp in immigration from 12-16. From there it declines as per trump policies to lower immigration (and well done not included 2020 which was a Stephen Miller wet dream)
All trends under trump were a decline whereas under Obama were an incline. Can you seriously sit here with a straight face and say trump was more liberal with immigration than Obama?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1315]
TigerPulse: 74%
Posts: 8987
Joined: 1/25/11
|
Re: Why do you lie so much?
Jan 14, 2022, 6:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why do you lie so much? ] |
|
Ut oh, Obed. UK ain't gonna like your well thought out sane post! He will challenge you to the death with false narrative after false narrative. His arrogance and condescension are so unbecoming. Sadly, I don't think he realizes it. Anger Therapy would do wonders.
However, I still forgive him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [66054]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 24708
Joined: 6/12/14
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18023]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30155
Joined: 9/9/06
|
All three of those are already occurring
Jan 14, 2022, 4:35 PM
[ in reply to I’m saying that at current levels of legal immigration, if ] |
|
Wages are going up, increased automation and closure even with current levels of legal immigration (and prices are going up). I guess I can understand the argument that all three of those could get worse if illegal immigration is increased , but I think there is a strong argument that can be made that increasing legal immigration (and lowering the obstacles to that end) would have a positive impact on the economy. Despite higher wages (at least w/lower level skill jobs) we aren't seeing the jobs being filled and people are leaving the workforce (and this isn't just because of government entitlement spending).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155901]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65819
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Look at entitlement spending over the last 20 years.
Jan 14, 2022, 5:04 PM
|
|
The illegal immigrant trend, although not a new phenomenon, really started ramping up in the late 90's and has yet to be addressed. It's kept the (legal) wage floor flat, and the illegal wage floor even lower. As US citizens decide these jobs are no longer worth their time for the money earned, it's Uncle Sugar that has stepped in to fill the gap....they aren't just stopping working and earning nothing, they're viewing govt assistance as an attractive (relative term, I know) alternative to labor.
So you have two unnatural market forces in this classic supply and demand equation, the influx of illegal workers, and govt assistance. The influx of illegal workers prevented the employers from needing to raise wages, and the govt assistance made the need to work less desirable for a portion of the populaion. Take out those two forces, and I'd argue that we would have largely seen a natural, more gradual and more manageable increases of wages and costs over time, along with a steadier domestic labor pool and far decreased entitlement expenses.
-1 for the first person who tries to make this a "let them eat cake" argument on my part---we're debating basic economics here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18023]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30155
Joined: 9/9/06
|
If your argument is about the current trends
Jan 14, 2022, 5:38 PM
|
|
then a much larger "unnatural market force" would be the pandemic's influence on a worker's desire or ability to work. Many of the workers that have "resigned" are women who chose or were forced to choose to take care of their families over a job(school closings/finding childcare/etc). If that's the case, that reads to me a temporary trend that will reverse once the pandemic is over which should serve as a motivator to society to do what they can to help quicken that goal. This also serves as a counter-argument to seeing government assistance as a negative considering the societal good that comes from taking care of one's family.
If illegal immigration was a major cause of declining wages, and illegal immigration ramped up in the late 1990s then why has the trend of declining wages been going on for 50+ years?
I just feel like with anything economics-based, the issue is complicated, and nailing it down to just one or two things isn't the full explanation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155901]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65819
Joined: 5/6/13
|
I feel like we may have stalemated this one before,
Jan 14, 2022, 6:05 PM
|
|
but no, I'm talking about up to and including current forces...not just right now.
Also, don't believe real wages have declined over the last 50 years for the most part. What they have done is stay quite stagnant, but the difference is they tracked proportionally with employee productivity ROI up until the mid-80's. Reagan faced an illegal immigration surge in the 80's too (and handled it poorly, IMHO---enjoy it, I don't say much negative about Ronnie).
That's right around the point where you start to see earnings from employees continue upward while worker compensation starts to flatline, and it gets far worse in the 90's and doesn't abate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18023]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30155
Joined: 9/9/06
|
I should have included wages as percent of GDP
Jan 14, 2022, 6:26 PM
|
|
have declined over the last 50 years (but are showing an upward trend over the last 5 years.)
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/W270RE1A156NBEA Shares of gross domestic income: Compensation of employees, paid: Wage and salary accruals: Disbursements: to persons Graph and download economic data for Shares of gross domestic income: Compensation of employees, paid: Wage and salary accruals: Disbursements: to persons (W270RE1A156NBEA) from 1948 to 2020 about disbursements, Shares of GDI, accruals, GDI, paid, compensation, salaries, wages, persons, income, employment, and USA.
But you're right that purchasing power of wages has remained stagnant since the 1970s.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/
https://www.epi.org/publication/swa-wages-2019/
but productivity has only increased in that same time.
<###### width="100%" height="460" src="https://www.epi.org?p=183494&view=#####&embed_template=charts_v2013_08_21&embed_date=20220114&onp=183498&utm_source=epi_press&utm_medium=chart_embed&utm_campaign=charts_v2" frameborder="0">
Note: I'm not necessarily arguing against your point as I think illegal immigration and entitlement spending probably do play a part in all of this. I'm just not completely sold that illegal immigration/entitlements are the main contributors to wage stagnation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7207]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9432
Joined: 12/18/13
|
Immigration of any kind makes the average American better off.
Jan 14, 2022, 4:24 PM
[ in reply to Yes, everyone is clearly against plain old "immigration" and ] |
|
In a macro sense, it pushes the ppf out, that's how specialization works. If you take it to an extreme, imagine only one person producing two goods (x and y), adding a second person (assuming his marginal rate of production is higher for either x or y) and having them each specialize in one good will more than double total production. The decreased wages you speak of are more localized (definition of special interest group).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155901]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65819
Joined: 5/6/13
|
That’s in a market devoid of external influences.
Jan 14, 2022, 4:30 PM
|
|
When you have population A willing to work for X per hour, there’s a baseline to what you can pay. Drop too far below X and you won’t have a full staff or an incapable staff. When you introduce population B, who is willing to work for X-Y, there is a point where Y is significant enough that you no longer need or want population A.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7207]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9432
Joined: 12/18/13
|
Re: That’s in a market devoid of external influences.
Jan 14, 2022, 4:40 PM
|
|
You're conflating two different things, making the argument that minimum wage is above mrp so if you skirt the law those people can't dind employment. There are solutions to that too like making legal immigration easier or cracking down on employers, not to mention that people can still be better off with lower wages if cogs go down, I mean Shirley producers are going to pass those savings onto consumers. You can throw more and more assumptions into the mix to get your desired outcome, but ceteris paribus immigration is good in terms of gdp/person.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155901]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65819
Joined: 5/6/13
|
You're arguing something completely different clearly, and
Jan 14, 2022, 5:05 PM
|
|
yes, truly cracking down on employers would pretty much end illegal immigration at a statistically meaningful level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58411]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46322
Joined: 4/23/00
|
No. Who said that?***
Jan 14, 2022, 3:14 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58411]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46322
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Nobody.***
Jan 14, 2022, 3:14 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58411]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46322
Joined: 4/23/00
|
I know, thanks.***
Jan 14, 2022, 3:15 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5675]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 12157
Joined: 9/28/08
|
Re: Surely immigration is terrible right?
Jan 14, 2022, 3:45 PM
|
|
Yes, terrible.
US Citizens should be working those jobs
|
|
|
|
|
|
Head Coach [790]
TigerPulse: 50%
Posts: 1512
Joined: 8/3/16
|
Re: Surely immigration is terrible right?
Jan 14, 2022, 4:32 PM
|
|
Shame they aren’t and you all sitting here all day complaining about “Biden caused inflation” when in fact the 2m legal immigrants that trump prevented entering this country is a significant reason.
And please note. This is the US chamber of commerce saying this. Not msnbc. One of the most ardent capitalistic groups out there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26503]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 20642
Joined: 9/2/02
|
Illegals driving big rigs ... sounds like an awesome good
Jan 14, 2022, 3:50 PM
|
|
time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24477]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13968
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Heard the words 'supply chain' yesterday, now an expert.***
Jan 14, 2022, 4:11 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18023]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30155
Joined: 9/9/06
|
how many economic experts on either side you think in here?***
Jan 14, 2022, 4:37 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24477]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13968
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Among the few, he's not.***
Jan 15, 2022, 10:21 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Surely immigration is terrible right?
Jan 14, 2022, 4:21 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Head Coach [790]
TigerPulse: 50%
Posts: 1512
Joined: 8/3/16
|
Re: Surely immigration is terrible right?
Jan 14, 2022, 4:40 PM
|
|
Take 5 minutes to Google “Uk lorry shortage” and you can see very quickly how the elimination of immigration hurts a country.
this isn’t rocket science my friend.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [47750]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30413
Joined: 11/15/99
|
My theory....
Jan 14, 2022, 4:28 PM
|
|
You are a Miura scok trying to troll the good hard working conservatives in the Jounge.
That or you are a stupid moron.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13105]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14104
Joined: 11/2/15
|
Re: Surely immigration is terrible right?
Jan 14, 2022, 5:55 PM
|
|
You sound racist
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15067
Joined: 8/6/10
|
Such a hodgepodge of statist a**hattery***
Jan 14, 2022, 7:03 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 36
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
