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Orange Blooded [2669]
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A logical explanation of Brownell's tenure
Mar 11, 2021, 1:48 PM
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Brownell is a great basketball coach and an average to slightly above average recruiter. That is who he is as a college basketball coach plain and simple.
It seems that most of you don't actually know what you want or what Clemson can realistically get. Prior to Brownell, two of our most successful basketball coaches were Rick Barnes and Oliver Purnell.
- Rick Barnes: He was only with us for 4 years and we only had a winning ACC record in 1 of those years. The minute another team came calling he was out. We got Larry Shyatt after he left. Thanks Rick!
- Oliver Purnell: He greatly improved our program in the 7 years he was here. He brought us to the tourney his final 3 years, and also had a winning ACC record those 3 years. After 3 years of success, he quickly bolted to Depaul where he struggled mightily.
So the two successful coaches we had pre-brownell bolted shortly after their success.
After Brownell's first year, the cupboards were bare. Brownell didn't have time to sign a class his first year so his first freshman class was for the 2012 season. Our starting lineup in year 2 is as follows
PG: Andre Young
SG: Tanner Smith
SF: Brian Narcisse
PF: Milton Jennings
C: Devin Booker
Our notable backups were Catelin Baciu and KJ McDaniels
I'm sorry, the talent level with that team was horrible. Purnell left us no talent and no depth (except for 1 year)
After year 2 we were left with limited talent, worst facilities in the NCAA, worst basketball tradition in the NCAA, and bottom tier fan support. If you couple that with a coach that isn't an elite recruiter, then you have a problem. Expecting to have a great basketball team at this moment was like wondering why Duke doesn't have a good Football team. Or being a fat greasy slob with a 3" ###### and expecting to land a supermodel wife
Our options after that time for having a great basketball team was to fire Brownell and hire an elite coach who would probably bolt after success, or upgrade facilities and stick with Brownell. We chose the latter.
Our first year in the newly renovated Little John we made the NIT. The second year, we made the sweet 16. In the third year, we probably had the most disappointing seasons under Brownell. We lost 5 out of our first 6 conference games but rebounded and still ended with a 9-9 conference record. This included two 1 point losses to Miami and #16 Louisville, and a 2 point loss to #5 UNC. We ended up making the NIT
We knew the 2019/2020 Season was going to be a down year. We lost everyone from the year prior and our lone returning starter was Simms who only averaged about 6 points the year prior. We had a poor year (as expected)and didn't make any post-season play. The silver lining of that season is that we finally beat UNC at UNC, and also had 3 top 10 wins against Duke, Louisville, and FSU. For a season that was supposed to be dismal, it was probably Brownell's best coaching job.
Now onto this year.....
We have beaten 7 tournament teams (at least). This has to be a record, although I'm not going to do the research to look it up. We had a 10-6 conference record which is the best conference record since the 89-90 season. We did achieve a 10-6 record once with OP as well.
So now we sit here with the best regular-season we have had since 1990 and we are a lock to make it in the NCAA's. I look on the board and it's a bunch of posts from complete losers saying it's all Brownell's fault and that he should be fired. It's almost comical how unrealistic and stupid some of our basketball fans are.
The end
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: A logical explanation of Brownell's tenure
Mar 11, 2021, 1:51 PM
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Before people cry and only focus on the error in my post.....
*Worst facilities in the ACC and worst tradition in the ACC
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: A logical explanation of Brownell's tenure
Mar 11, 2021, 1:55 PM
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First of all he is not even and average recruiter. Second live in reality and stop the excuses. He has had plenty of time to be successful and has not produced. He sets you up to let you down every year.
The mistake was made when he was extended. Set us back years.
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All-In [25944]
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Re: A logical explanation of Brownell's tenure
Mar 11, 2021, 2:02 PM
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As you can see Mountaineer, we have a lot of coaches on this board, who in reality, do not coach.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: A logical explanation of Brownell's tenure
Mar 11, 2021, 2:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: A logical explanation of Brownell's tenure ] |
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Having the worst facilities and support in your conference (pre-renovations) and expecting us to be a stellar team year in and year out screams living in reality. LOL
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All-In [44029]
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You're right, 11 years would be plenty of time under
Mar 11, 2021, 2:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: A logical explanation of Brownell's tenure ] |
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normal circumstances.
But Clemson isn't normal circumstances. If you were paying attention, you would realize that the new facilities had to happen in order to help our program overcome our horrible basketball history, our mostly disinterested fan base, our perception as a football school that doesn't care about basketball, and the fact that we play in a basketball-first conference.
Just as the assistants, recruiting staff, and facilities have played a huge role in our football program improving, the same is true for basketball.
Are you not enjoying this year we're having?
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All-In [48223]
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Re: You're right, 11 years would be plenty of time under
Mar 11, 2021, 9:28 PM
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UVA
Fla St
Both teams have the same facilities and history that we do. In Fla St case, less history. Both have surpassed us through coaching.
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All-In [44029]
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No, that’s not true at all.
Mar 11, 2021, 9:48 PM
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Both have better basketball histories than Clemson.
UVA’s history is light years better than ours. When Bennett was hired, UVA had many NCAA Tournament appearances, multiple elite 8 and final 4 appearances, and multiple ACC championships.
As for FSU, Hamilton is a great coach but FSU was patient with him. He didn’t make an NCAA Tournament there until year 7. And FSU’s basketball history when Hamilton was hired as s better than ours. Florida is also a much better home state for recruiting than South Carolina.
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All-In [27301]
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Or to sum it with a funny cat video....
Mar 11, 2021, 2:25 PM
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All-In [44029]
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So true!
Mar 11, 2021, 2:33 PM
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I think some of our fans here truly think that any bozo should be able to easily take us on deep runs in the NCAA Tournament, despite the fact that no coach here ever has.
They don't seem to know or care that this year will be just our 12th NCAA Tournament appearance in program history.
They also probably don't realize that Brownell is the only coach we've had to win their first round NCAA Tournament game more than once. This year, he can do it for a third time.
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CU Guru [1893]
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Bottom line is your attitude seems to be, Clemson
Mar 11, 2021, 3:07 PM
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has never been great in basketball so Clemson should not aspire to be great in basketball. I appreciate all of your comments and position. I am just being realistic in stating Clemson will never be great in basketball with BB as the HC.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Bottom line is your attitude seems to be, Clemson
Mar 11, 2021, 3:21 PM
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has never been great in basketball so Clemson should not aspire to be great in basketball. I appreciate all of your comments and position. I am just being realistic in stating Clemson will never be great in basketball with BB as the HC.
That is incorrect. I am looking at the state of the program as well as improvement each year. My goal was to make the tournament this year and hopefully win at least 1 game in the tourney. I think we are in a good position to do that. Next year I believe we are a tournament team as well. We will still have stellar depth and a team that should be the most talented offensively in years.
Right now we have the best talent from a * rating perspective than we have ever had. Do you understand that?
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CU Guru [1893]
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No I don't.
Mar 11, 2021, 5:25 PM
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Clemson is losing its best player and only true inside player. Three weak incoming recruits, none of whom is a true big man. Clemson won't be a better team next year IMO. Only time will tell.
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All-In [44029]
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Why do we need a true big man?
Mar 11, 2021, 9:49 PM
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It’s worked out pretty well for us (and a bunch of other teams) not having one.
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All-In [44029]
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I have never said that. In fact, I’ve said the opposite.
Mar 11, 2021, 4:07 PM
[ in reply to Bottom line is your attitude seems to be, Clemson ] |
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We should strive for huge goals.
Becoming a really good program takes time. I believe we are getting there, and I believe Brad can be part of that. Remember, we are overcoming 100+ years of basketball futility.
We also must recognize that it will take more investment. More investment by the university, and more investment by the fans.
Many people here seem to be unwilling to spend more on basketball, yet still talk about “not settling for mediocrity.”
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CU Medallion [55377]
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Re: So true!
Mar 11, 2021, 4:02 PM
[ in reply to So true! ] |
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Judge, I think that the only time that Clemson has actually put any real concerns into our BB program, it has been with Brownell's tenure, and after 11 years with raises that has him making $2 plus million a year. 11 years in, and that kind of $$$$, I think that we should expect a little better than one and done in the ACC tourney in a year that most of the big dogs in the ACC are having their worst seasons in quite awhile.
The worst thing about the one and done, is that we lost to a 12 seeded, 13th ranked Miami team that didn't have a bench to count on in postseason play. Yeppers, we were beat by a tired, bad Miami team that should have lost by a dozen or more points.
My opinion is that Brad should have had our team ready to play post season ball, and he didn't. He should have made in game changes that could have headed off anything that a bad team would have thrown at him, and he didn't. Now is this the kind of BB coach that Clemson should be paying $2 plus million a year. He couldn't beat one of the worst teams in the ACC. IMO, DRAD should end this mediocrity this year, and try somebody else for less that what Clemson is paying Brownell, and if whoever they can get to come in, if they have the same, or worse results than what we've been getting from Brad for the past 11 years, well at least they would be cheaper!!!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2018/07/19/clemsons-brownell-gets-6-year-15-million-contract/36987657/
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All-In [28361]
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Re: A logical explanation of Brownell's tenure
Mar 11, 2021, 2:50 PM
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ok
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Hall of Famer [22312]
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Ah c'mon... you can slice & dice & twist numbers a million
Mar 11, 2021, 2:54 PM
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different ways. For example: "Muschamp won more games in his first 3 years than any coach in SCAR history". HOLY CRAP, WHAT A GREAT COACH!! No, he sucked donkey meat. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. Yet the statement is true.
Bottom line, after 11 years, we're just OK. We'll make the NCAA tournament that takes what, 68 teams? In football, that would be like barely squeaking into Preparation H Taint Bowl.
I just think a lot of us are ready to move on. Doesn't mean he's a bad coach or a bad person, it's just time. Lets' try something different. Worst case scenario... we'll still just be OK.
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All-In [44029]
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I hope you don't actually think
Mar 11, 2021, 3:00 PM
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that making the NCAA Tournament in basketball is equivalent to making a low-tier bowl in football.
To make a bowl in football, you just need a .500 record.
In basketball, a .500 record won't get you into the NCAA Tournament or the NIT.
It seems that you are trying to minimize what we have accomplished this year. I don't understand that attitude if you truly support Clemson.
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Hall of Famer [22312]
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Look man, I'm not doing a back and forth with you. In fact,
Mar 11, 2021, 3:48 PM
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I shoulda known better than to even post my thoughts on the basketball program. I rarely do.
But you cannot compare playing in the ACC nowadays to years past. Especially this year. Last time I checked, I think, the ACC doesn't even have a team ranked in the Top 15. I could be wrong but not taking the time right now to look it up. Still, that's gotta be the first time in history. So, finishing above .500 is not that great.
I can remember one year we played a team that was ranked #1 at some point seven times. Seven. Like... UNC, Duke, and somebody else (Maryland? UVA?) I forget. Home and away, and then 1st round of the ACC Tourney. And there were other ACC teams in the Top 25, and we played them all twice. We could go, say 18-10 and have a helluva team. All losses to damm good teams. The schedule was brutal back then.
But none of this really matters. Again, big picture, we're just OK. Not great, not good, just OK.
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All-In [44029]
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If you are going to say that our basketball team this year
Mar 11, 2021, 4:44 PM
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is just okay, not great, not good, but just okay...
...then please don't be surprised when some of us question how on earth you can conclude that our body of work this year is just okay.
We didn't lose a single game during the regular season this year against a quad 2, quad 3, or quad 4 team. That is incredible. That's way better than "just okay."
But you said you don't really want to discuss this, so I'll stop. I just don't understand how any rational Clemson basketball fan can look at our body of work this year and not be pleased.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Ah c'mon... you can slice & dice & twist numbers a million
Mar 11, 2021, 3:05 PM
[ in reply to Ah c'mon... you can slice & dice & twist numbers a million ] |
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different ways. For example: "Muschamp won more games in his first 3 years than any coach in SCAR history". HOLY CRAP, WHAT A GREAT COACH!! No, he sucked donkey meat. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. Yet the statement is true.
Bottom line, after 11 years, we're just OK. We'll make the NCAA tournament that takes what, 68 teams? In football, that would be like barely squeaking into Preparation H Taint Bowl.
I just think a lot of us are ready to move on. Doesn't mean he's a bad coach or a bad person, it's just time. Lets' try something different. Worst case scenario... we'll still just be OK.
It’s funny how you accused me of slicing and dicing numbers to benefit brownell but then you proceed to make the terrible comparison of making the tourney and making a bowl game. LMAO
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Orange Blooded [2638]
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His offenses have always struggled
Mar 11, 2021, 3:22 PM
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I feel like he is a good defensive coach but he has no strategy on offense. It’s just shoot 3s and hope for the best.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: His offenses have always struggled
Mar 11, 2021, 3:24 PM
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His offenses have always struggled because we haven't had great offensive talent. We should be much better offensively next year.
Also, we are never going to score a ton of points with a Brownell team. We don't push it up the floor quickly and try to limit possessions. Kind of like how Virginia plays
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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We'll take a step back next year with the loss of Simms.
Mar 11, 2021, 3:28 PM
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We just aren't recruiting well enough and developing players well enough to have any consistent improvement.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: We'll take a step back next year with the loss of Simms.
Mar 11, 2021, 3:47 PM
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We just aren't recruiting well enough and developing players well enough to have any consistent improvement.
I really don't think we will. Simms didn't have a great year IMO. We will take a step forward with more experienced guard play, better post play with Hall and Kidd, and our better recruiting classes being a year older.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Dawes averaged 9pts/game for the 2nd year in a row.
Mar 11, 2021, 4:01 PM
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He was a human turnover yesterday. Honor is generously listed at 5'10" and they both struggle against larger guards. Hall averaged 3.7 pts/game and Kidd averaged 1.1 pts per game.
Where will this dramatic improvement come from next year? One thing we have not seen in Brownell's 11 years is players making big jumps in improvement from year to year.
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CU Guru [1893]
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Re: We'll take a step back next year with the loss of Simms.
Mar 11, 2021, 5:27 PM
[ in reply to We'll take a step back next year with the loss of Simms. ] |
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That's correct. Three 3-star commits. They won't improve the program next year, if at all.
Kinda like SC football recruiting.
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All-In [44029]
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Our last three star recruit was Alex Hemenway.
Mar 11, 2021, 9:52 PM
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I’d say he’s worked out pretty well.
Why can’t you give this recruiting class a chance to show what they can do before you bash them?
Do you even want to see them succeed? Or are you just about bashing players who are still in high school?
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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He's not "a great coach" by any stretch of the imagination.
Mar 11, 2021, 3:24 PM
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He is a below average recruiter.
On the other hand, he's not going anywhere anytime soon as DRAD has rather low expectations for Clemson basketball.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: He's not "a great coach" by any stretch of the imagination.
Mar 11, 2021, 3:25 PM
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People that know way more about basketball than you disagree.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Can you give examples?***
Mar 11, 2021, 3:28 PM
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110%er [6981]
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Re: He's not "a great coach" by any stretch of the imagination.
Mar 11, 2021, 9:28 PM
[ in reply to Re: He's not "a great coach" by any stretch of the imagination. ] |
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Like who, genius? Mickey Plyler? You also forgot completely about Cliff Ellis, who engineered the best seasons Clemson basketball’s ever had, and recruited great players.
Just face it l, Brownell is a mediocre coach that nobody else wants and for some reason there’s a lot of people at Clemson that think he’s just fine. We are settling for second tier basketball.
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All-In [44029]
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CU Guru [1950]
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There's a whole lot of hyperbole in this post
Mar 11, 2021, 3:40 PM
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"Worst facilities in the NCAA"
"Worst basketball tradition in the NCAA"
There are 350+ Division 1 basketball schools. We're nowhere near the "worst".
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: There's a whole lot of hyperbole in this post
Mar 11, 2021, 3:44 PM
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"Worst facilities in the NCAA"
"Worst basketball tradition in the NCAA"
There are 350+ Division 1 basketball schools. We're nowhere near the "worst".
I mistyped. See my post directly under the OP. I meant the ACC. That is true
"Before people cry and only focus on the error in my post.....
*Worst facilities in the ACC and worst tradition in the ACC"
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CU Medallion [64569]
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Speaking entirely for myself...
Mar 11, 2021, 4:19 PM
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there are no circumstances under which I would describe Brad Brownell as a "great basketball coach".
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All-In [44029]
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Do you think Clemson has ever had a great basketball coach?***
Mar 11, 2021, 4:47 PM
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CU Medallion [64569]
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Great at Clemson? No !!!
Mar 12, 2021, 8:45 AM
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Although Rick Barnes has the potential to be.
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All-Pro [682]
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Re: A logical explanation of Brownell's tenure
Mar 11, 2021, 4:20 PM
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Well said mountaineer I agree 100%
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CU Medallion [65370]
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You sound, almost word for word, exactly like the
Mar 11, 2021, 6:06 PM
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"prevailing wisdom" of the time about Tommy Bowden. We should be happy with him winning 8 to 9 games a year, because, other than the one all too brief period of glory during the Danny Ford years, that's as good as our history was. It was unrealistic to think we could do any better.
I said this long ago. As long as you don't think it's possible to have a TOP tier basketball program at Clemson, you will be right, because it will be a self fulfilling prophesy.
IF you (you being those in power at Clemson University) ever DO make having a TOP tier basketball program a goal, and accept nothing less, that, too will be a self fulfilling prophesy.
In so many ways, Dabo Swinney is the worst thing that ever happened to Brad Brownell. That is because, he showed us that, if you have the administration fully committed to your program, and you have an unquenchable drive to succeed, ALL things are possible. So now, I am no longer happy with mediocre, just like the past, only once a decade better than average results in basketball. No matter what you say, it IS possible to have better than that at Clemson.
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All-In [44029]
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No one here is settling for mediocrity.
Mar 11, 2021, 9:57 PM
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Some of us feel that signs of improvement are obvious and we want to see Brownell continue to build the program.
And I don’t recall anyone being pleased with winning 8-9 games a year in football under Bowden. Plenty of people wanted to see him succeed here since he was a Bowden and a Southern Baptist, but there was a lot of pressure at the time for him to win the division and compete for a conference championship.
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CU Medallion [65370]
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Nobody actually associated with Clemson was happy with 8-9
Mar 12, 2021, 8:58 AM
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wins a year. But, sports announcers and SEC shills were spreading that like gospel. That, along with the uses of that term "Clemsoning", is what pushed me over the line as far as writing to the President begging for a change. I had no idea who we would get, but literally felt like we were staring into the abyss, and it was about to get a whole lot worse if we DIDN'T make a change. Also, a lot of Johnnie Come Lately fans don't seem to remember now, that it was not all smooth sailing for Dabo Swinney early on, either. It took a lot of intestinal fortitude and Maalox for Terry Don Phillips to stick with Dabo after the 2010 season when we were 6-7.
I know you are the staunchest of BB supporters, Kudoes to you for still believing in him. It is the consistent inconsistency that kills it for me with him. His program has been "Clemsoning" in the worst way for awhile now. Metaphorically (and REALLY) his program swishes treys one day, and misses dunks the next. I really don't know what the answer is. And that, as much as anything, makes me sad about Clemson Basketball.
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All-In [48223]
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Re: A logical explanation of Brownell's tenure
Mar 11, 2021, 8:33 PM
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One response to you and judges theory.
UVA and Tony Bennett. He and Brad came in about the same time. UVA had a slightly, and I mean slightly better bball history than Clemson. They weren't known as a blue blood and through the 90s and 2000s Clemson and uva were neck and neck.
It's called coaching. TB is a great coach and established an identity and recruited to it. Brad is NOT a great coach. We've won games in spite of his coaching, not because of it.
Oh, and btw, Dabo has helped BB recruit kids.
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All-In [44029]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32946
Joined: 2/22/03
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It’s too bad you can’t edit your post
Mar 11, 2021, 10:10 PM
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because this is one of your worst.
When Tony Bennett was hired in 2009, UVA had:
6 ACC regular season championships (1 for Clemson)
1 ACC tournament championship (0 for Clemson)
16 NCAA Tournament appearances (9 for Clemson)
7 Sweet 16 appearances (2 for Clemson)
5 Elite 8 appearances (1 for Clemson)
2 Final 4 appearances (0 for Clemson)
3 Naismith Award winners (0 for Clemson)
2 Wooden Award winners (0 for Clemson)
11 All-Americans (2 for Clemson)
20 players drafted in the NBA (15 for Clemson)
UVA had also built (not merely renovated) a state of the art arena a few years before Bennett was hired.
It’s not even close. Please try again.
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110%er [6825]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6350
Joined: 7/20/18
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Re: A logical explanation of Brownell's tenure
Mar 12, 2021, 9:02 AM
[ in reply to Re: A logical explanation of Brownell's tenure ] |
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Plus UVA just finished their arena 170+M (in todays dollars renovation - $130 back then) around 2006. Littlejohn was getting close to being condemned (again). UVA was willing to outspend us 3:1 in basketball facilities.
Bennett was a Sweet-Sixteen caliper coach and if Washington State was CUTTING THE PROGRAM he would have stayed put. S16 coaches don't appear on the market in cost-cutting programs - that is extremely rare. Even then Bennett was not sold on UVA. Almost declined them. It really took UVA having the best facilities at the time, willing to spend cash on coachES), and the current program WSU cutting programs. Even then Bennett was only swayed because his wife was from North Carolina so it would be quasi moving back home for her... and you always keep the wife happy.
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