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Replies: 25
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Hall of Famer [22388]
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Clemson wide receivers.
Nov 30, 2022, 11:01 AM
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Our upperclassmen are Ngata, Swinney, Spector and Williams(transfers Ladson & Ajou and early draft entrant Justin Ross) and were all recruited by Jeff Scott. Probably not his best work.
Grisham recruited Dacari Collins, Beaux Collins, Will Taylor, Troy Stellato, Adam Randall, Antonio Williams, Cole Turner, Noble Johnson and Ronan Hanafin.
D Collins transferred (foolishly?)
Beaux Collins has been limited by a shoulder injury requiring surgery.
Will Taylor tore a knee ligament.
Troy Stellato tore a knee ligament.
Adam Randall tore a knee ligament.
Antonio Williams is excellent.
Cole Turner is redshirting.
Noble Johnson arrives in January.
Ronan Hanafin arrives in January.
It's safe to say we don't really know how good our underclassmen receivers are(other than our best receiver A. Williams) or what kind of a coach and recruiter Tyler Grisham is.
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Hall of Famer [21577]
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Good post.
Nov 30, 2022, 11:07 AM
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It's interesting to highlight that class by Jeff Scott since so many people want him back. I agree. It was an awful class.
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110%er [8537]
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Re: Good post.
Nov 30, 2022, 11:23 AM
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I agree about good information. The truth is, recruiting is only as good as the end result and honestly, there are not many Sammy Watkins and Tee Higgins out there and if they are, every school wants them.
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All-TigerNet [12249]
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Yes.. and No...
Nov 30, 2022, 11:17 AM
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Ngata, Spector, and Williams - while recruited by Jeff Scott were/are largely Grisham's responsibility for further development over the past 3 seasons. At the end of the day it is Grisham's job to get whoever he has on the roster to the high level of performance expected of a top football program like Clemson. For the past two seasons the WR group have been inconsistent and under-performing. Truthfully most of our starting WR's wouldn't even start at Duke or Wake Forest. As we used to say in the Army - that is a lick on Grisham and is unacceptable.
I'm willing to give Grisham one more year but Dabo needs to put this guy on notice. If his WR group doesn't show significant improvement next season - he will be out of a job.
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Hall of Famer [22388]
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No, it's not a lick on Grisham.
Nov 30, 2022, 11:22 AM
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You even state in your post that they couldn't start at Wake, yet you penalize Grisham for not being able to get more out of them while not crediting him for the rapid development of A. Williams.
We've all seen Ngata, Ajou, Ladson, Williams and Spector play for a number of years. We understand the limits of their abilities.
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All-TigerNet [12249]
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Respectully disagree - it is a lick on Grisham
Nov 30, 2022, 12:11 PM
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Grisham has had since 2019 to work with our receiver group. It is telling that Ngata, Williams, and Spector have not developed in 3 years to be reliable D1 wide receivers. It IS on Grisham to develop the talent of these receivers and he has largely failed to do so. The on-field results of these upperclassmen speak for themselves.
Antonio Williams came in this past summer and has had less time with Grisham than any of the upperclassmen. Quite frankly - we are seeing a lot of natural raw talent with A. Williams (credit Grisham for recruiting the young man) but I find it very telling that A. Williams is the best WR on the team out of all those upperclassmen that have been in the program multiple years. One talented freshman receiver among a lot of under-performing upperclassmen does not give Grisham a pass on developing the whole WR group. Sorry - as a whole Grisham is not getting it done right now and he needs to be put on notice - the starting WR group's on field performance must improve in year 4 or he is out of a job.
The reason Ngata, Williams, and Spector wouldn't start for Wake is not because they are a recruiting "miss" but that they have failed to develop. Wake is a true developmental program - they don't recruit "ready to play" 4 or 5 star freshmen. They recruit solid 2/3 stars and make them better through coaching their freshman/sophomore years to where they become very solid performers their junior/senior years. Player development is their model which is something Grisham has yet to prove he can do.
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Hall of Famer [22388]
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You are seeing talent in Ngata and Spector
Nov 30, 2022, 12:23 PM
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that I am not seeing. Williams has been plagued by injuries since his freshman year. He actually lost weight from year 2 to year 3 and is down to 191 pounds on his 6'3" frame.
This from last spring:
Clemson wide receiver E.J. Williams, sidelined by various injuries last season, will miss spring practice after what the Tigers hope is preventative maintenance. Williams recently had unexpected knee arthroscopy as doctors went in with a camera to check for damage.
“It breaks my heart that E.J. won’t be able to go because he was literally last week tearing it up (in offseason workouts). ... He was doing great,” Clemson coach Dabo Swinney said. “He just had a little issue there that they had to correct. He’s not going to be able to go through spring. The biggest thing with him is just getting him healthy so we don’t have to deal with some of these recurring issues that have limited him.”
Then, Williams gets injured in August camp and Dabo commented during the season that he had lost his confidence with all of the injuries.
I am not seeing the evidence that Grisham can't develop talent.
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All-TigerNet [12249]
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I consider myself to be a fair minded guy...
Nov 30, 2022, 1:25 PM
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As such that is why I'm willing to give Grisham another year (2023 football season - 4 full years as the WR coach) to see where the WR group stands. If our 2023 WR group under-performs as it has for the past two years then I see no recourse but to send Grisham packing - 4 years is more than fair for him to establish a solid WR group. If in 2023 the WR group shows marked improvement on the field then Grisham should be allowed to continue.
The bottom line is this is Grisham's first coaching job and I imagine he is learning a lot as he goes. Dabo wants to be a developmental program (both in players and coaches) and one can expect the occasional turmoil with that approach. However, we are currently on a two year run of poor WR play and if that extends into 3 years of poor WR play in 2023 then Grisham needs to go.
If we are honest, no other top 5 program would have hired Grisham as their WR coach. As the norm, Grisham should have started earning his coaching sea legs at a smaller program before working his way into the big leagues. But as we have seen - Dabo likes to give young guys a chance but with that comes risk and it doesn't always work out.
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All-In [44048]
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They have the raw talent to start for most teams
Nov 30, 2022, 1:34 PM
[ in reply to No, it's not a lick on Grisham. ] |
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but because of our amateur coaching, they aren't starting material now.
HTH.
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Hall of Famer [22388]
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No they don't. Your basketball anger colors your thinking.
Nov 30, 2022, 1:57 PM
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It's obvious to everybody.
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Freshman [-79]
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Legend [19687]
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So are you holding Scott accountable for all the receivers
Nov 30, 2022, 12:57 PM
[ in reply to Yes.. and No... ] |
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he recruited and coached who never panned out or transfered? There were quite a few
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Freshman [-79]
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Streeter and Grisham need a QB who can deliver
1
Nov 30, 2022, 1:29 PM
[ in reply to Yes.. and No... ] |
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the ball on-time and on target. Can't put the cart before the horse, and our horse is, well, not great.
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All-In [48323]
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Re: Clemson wide receivers.
Nov 30, 2022, 11:22 AM
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You can't include spector or swinney. They were coming either way. Jeff couldn't and didn't have anything to do with transfers. So ej Williams and ngata both highly rated.
Staff recruits territories too so it's not fair to say Jeff recruited everyone. It's on all of them. Look at the recruits in his territories for a fair assessment.
Second, back to ej Williams . His best stats are 2020 with Trevor. What happened ? Same with ngata, he had a stellar year 2019 with limited snaps and talent galore.
Ross, great player and wr under Trevor. Then injury.
I'd say jury still out but for sure, hs ratings good, developed not so good.
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110%er [7488]
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There was another common thread there in your
Nov 30, 2022, 11:26 AM
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Analysis for their best years ……Trevor
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All-TigerNet [13889]
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yep, qb has got to get the ball to them in a timely
Nov 30, 2022, 11:43 AM
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manner.
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Hall of Famer [22388]
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It wasn't an attempt to impugn Jeff Scott. He was, however,
Nov 30, 2022, 11:55 AM
[ in reply to Re: Clemson wide receivers. ] |
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they recruiting coordinator and wide receiver coach at the time. Also, I am not blaming Jeff Scott for the players who transferred. They weren't good enough to play here. It wasn't a development issue. Their performances with their new teams prove that point. But, I definitely do not hold Tyler Grisham responsible for those players as he was not responsible for their signing.
We've all seen Ngata for a number of years. He caught 17 passes his freshman year before injury issues took a toll. It's not a player development issue with him. He can't get separation. I do not see the talent that you see from him. Spector lacks the elusiveness and speed and hips to be a consistent performer. He looks like a safety. Ladson and Ajou have not improved at their new schools.
The misses in recruiting(I don't have complete faith in recruiting rankings. They are often way off. Check out Alabama's highly rated transfers over the last few years.) and subsequent transfers are not a reflection of Tyler Grisham's performance.
Given all of the injuries and transfers and poor QB performance, along with the outstanding performance of freshman Antonio Williams, it is not fair to say that player development under Tyler Grisham has not been good.
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All-In [48323]
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Re: It wasn't an attempt to impugn Jeff Scott. He was, however,
Nov 30, 2022, 12:32 PM
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Great discussion by all. I know you weren't attempting to call out Jeff. Apologies if it came across that way. I'm in total agreement with recruiting. It's fallen off.
I advocated last January that we needed to portal WR, OL- center, and a DB/safety because of talent but moreso lack of experience... talent for WR.
OL turned out OK but still don't like taking them out of their natural positions. All that said, I'm more disappointed in our defense than with offense. Everyone pretty much agreed defense would carry us. But both units had bad games.
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All-In [46565]
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Re: Clemson wide receivers.
Nov 30, 2022, 11:32 AM
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If Trevor or Deshaun was slinging the ball to them they would all look better!
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Orange Blooded [3507]
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Re: Clemson wide receivers.
Nov 30, 2022, 12:31 PM
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Yep.....DW4 or TL16 would light defenses up with these same receivers. These guys are open a LOT....they are just not being seen by the QB.
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Legend [19586]
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You're arguing that Jeff's WRs were already
Nov 30, 2022, 12:34 PM
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bad when Grisham showed up. That's just not the case. Every last one of them GOT WORSE
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Orange Blooded [4009]
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I think Jeff Scott’s (and Dabo’s) track record at WR speaks for itself
Nov 30, 2022, 12:45 PM
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Kids get hurt and Kids transfer. Just a fact of life.
If you can’t overcome that and develop your players so they are elite, then it doesn’t mean you are a bad coach it just means you are not an elite coach.
If you aren’t an elite coach, you don’t belong at an elite program.
And don’t get me wrong, the timing is horrible here. I think Dabo would have preferred to spend more time mentoring Grisham at WR coach, but when you have to replace 2 new coordinators then that’s got to take priority. I’m sure that’s taken a ton of energy and time.
But, at the end of the day its about results.
One year is a fluke. But let’s be real - It’s been 2 years of poor play at WR and QB. And it’s killing the team’s potential. I think we are a playoff team this year if we had just average QB/WR play.
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Team Captain [486]
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Re: I think Jeff Scott’s (and Dabo’s) track record at WR speaks for itself
Nov 30, 2022, 12:58 PM
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That's what I told people in August; all we need is for DJU to be a top 25 level QB1 to get to the CFP, again. Could not do it.
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All-In [44048]
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That seems like a lot of injuries.
Nov 30, 2022, 1:36 PM
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It once again calls into question how we practice, how we do strength and conditioning, etc.
I know someone will chime in and say that football is a violent sport, injuries happen, and sometimes teams have rashes of injuries. But we seem to have a lot more injuries than we used to.
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All-American [557]
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So you're....
Nov 30, 2022, 3:31 PM
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assessment is that DJ is the #1 problem because we can't get even mediocre play
from the QB position thus stifling the offense. I agree.
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All-Pro [699]
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Re: Clemson wide receivers.
Nov 30, 2022, 1:36 PM
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It tells me Grisham needs to spend more time checking his recruits knee ligaments. Really awful luck on top of some players that never panned out.
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