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Legend [15744]
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For those in "CRT just wants to each history" La La Land...
Jul 7, 2021, 10:42 AM
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What did you not learn in your history classes in high school that you consider a materially significant component of education in order to understand our country or be a productive member of society?
As I referenced in the CRT thread, I am assuming (but again, correct me if I'm wrong) that slavery, segregation and Jim Crow laws were all covered in your high school curriculum. What's missing? Redlining? Tulsa? What components of our *racial* history is missing in our high school curriculum and what about those components do you think make them indispensable components of a high school graduate's knowledge? How will covering these subjects better-prepare our students to be more productive members of a free society? What would you remove from a history curriculum to make room for this subject matter?
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Oculus Spirit [97697]
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Well, since I have kids in school now
Jul 7, 2021, 10:46 AM
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I can say what was missing. Whether it's important is up for debate. For example, my son knows more about disease outbreaks Europeans brought, and knows FAR more about native American history, tribes, customs, and culture, prior to Europeans arriving. A lot of stuff has been emphasized that I was not taught.
So yeah, a whole new emphasis is being placed on stuff we didn't learn. How that's important to understanding why signing into the Walgreens app to refill a prescription is such a pain in the ###....I'm not sure.
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All-In [26968]
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Does anyone think this?
Jul 7, 2021, 10:59 AM
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"CRT just wants to each history"
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Heisman Winner [119678]
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Borders on teaching Hate….***
Jul 7, 2021, 11:21 AM
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Hall of Famer [24467]
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Agree. Anyone who thinks CRT is about what events are taught
Jul 7, 2021, 12:25 PM
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in a history class is purposely deflecting the discussion.
Every individual has in his history a collection of injustices done to him. The proper response to that is to seek remedy where available. Sometimes that can be achieved, but usually not.
Some people lead happy lives in spite of those injustices, and in spite of what remedies were provided or not, and some do not. Therapists offices are full of people chained by bitterness and resentment. Not a single psychologist/therapist will suggest that the path forward for their clients is to seek satisfaction for the real or perceived injustice. That simply will not work. Never has, never will.
The remedy, and the leading of a productive happy life, are entirely separate. The past injustice can never been seen by the individual as being responsible for his wellbeing, his future, or his actions. Any other advice is destructive. This is 101 level stuff, not even controversial. What is true for an individual is true for a collection of individuals.
Where any societal condition is hindering individual freedom, that condition should of course be addressed immediately. Few disagree with that. We have a history of addressing those conditions, however imperfectly.
That is not what is happening. Instead, a split between groups is being achieved, each blaming the other for their perceived unhappiness, even using the word 'oppression', to the degree that multimillionaire celebrities call themselves oppressed. This has nothing to do with past or current grievances, as none are stated and no specific remedy proposed. This is Marxism in the barest of disguises. This is about ideology, not observation or rationality.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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All-In [39020]
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All-In [42119]
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Hmmm...
Jul 7, 2021, 11:20 AM
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You seem to be under the impression that the sole purpose of learning history is to better prepare students to be more productive members of a free society. I would definitely say that's one of the purposes, but learning history is important to maintain that factual material remains alive on the minds of all citizens and in the history books. Tulsa, which you cite, is a great example. How many of us had no idea this happened because there was a concentrated effort to suppress that information over decades?
But if we want to take your route, are you arguing that teaching the thorough racial history of America, the evils that were created to oppress black Americans, and the mistakes made in the past in the America isn't important to teach students so they learn it was wrong and fight back against future attempts? And that would include concepts like Tulsa, a more in-depth look at Civil Rights abuses (which doesn't really happen as it should in schools), federal government discrimination post WW II, race as a social construct (it is), etc.
Why on earth would anyone have a problem with this?
Don't we teach that Nazism and oppression of the Jewish people was wrong so it doesn't happen again? Don't we go into detail about what happened during that time for that reason. And NO, I'm not comparing the Holocaust to U.S. segregation. Stop typing that, Swarley. Stop. Hit the back space button. I'm using that as an example of why we teach detailed atrocities in history--all of them, but especially in more modern history--to prevent repeats.
How about you tell us why learning these concepts doesn't make our youth better people? And no, I'm not talking about the "white people are evil" boogeyman. I'm talking about examining the in-depth historical cases of systemic racism and oppression in our nation prior to 1970.
And don't cop out with a "I don't wanna get in a debate with Cata cause I don't like him challenging my opinions" kind of post.
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Heisman Winner [119678]
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What “concepts” is CRT teaching?
Jul 7, 2021, 11:25 AM
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You got the syllabus?
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All-In [42119]
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Nope, but I'd like to see it.
Jul 7, 2021, 11:56 AM
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I'd imagine that differs from state to state and district to district, no?
Let's go back to Joe's post (Swarley's new OP is completely unnecessary and grandstanding). It covers the topic well, and Joe also makes great points that it shouldn't turn into a "white people are inherently evil" discussion. And it shouldn't be forced views on students. Let them discuss and debate.
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All-TigerNet [10875]
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Legend [15744]
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Wait a minute...did you just
Jul 7, 2021, 11:44 AM
[ in reply to Hmmm... ] |
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compare the HOLOCAUST to U.S. Segregation! How dare you!?!
[Reads a little further]
Darnit. Well look, I don't wanna get into a debate with you, Cata. I just don't like when you challenge my opinion.
[Reads a little further]
############################!
Okay, then. Fine.
"You seem to be under the impression that the sole purpose of learning history is to better prepare students to be more productive members of a free society."
Link?
"Don't we teach that Nazism and oppression of the Jewish people was wrong so it doesn't happen again?"
We do. And slavery. And segregation. And Jim Crow. Were these things not taught in your high school? Are you taught all of the things that the Nazis did to Jews? How much are you taught about their treatment of Romani people and Slavs? Do you need to understand that before you think what the Nazi's did was bad? How much more time should we devote to the study of all negative Nazi stuff so that people fully understand that Nazism is bad?
What about teaching about Tulsa would finally hit the light switch in your brain that race riots are bad? Would you be sitting in history class in high school and thinking "Okay, sure, slavery...segregation...but still, they had some good poi...wait a minute, a race riot in Tulsa? Okay, this was out of hand...this can never happen again!"?
"are you arguing that teaching the thorough racial history of America, the evils that were created to oppress black Americans, and the mistakes made in the past in the America isn't important to teach students so they learn it was wrong and fight back against future attempts?"
I am arguing that, if I am going to have to listen to ignorant blather about how "CRT is just about teaching history", I would like to see the cards on the table. Where is the delta...what is missing and make a justification for why it should be included, and what silly drivel do we currently teach in American history that just isn't worth time?
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All-In [42119]
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Re: Wait a minute...did you just
Jul 7, 2021, 12:07 PM
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Link?
Seems to be what you are insinuating.
We do. And slavery. And segregation. And Jim Crow. Were these things not taught in your high school? Are you taught all of the things that the Nazis did to Jews? How much are you taught about their treatment of Romani people and Slavs? Do you need to understand that before you think what the Nazi's did was bad? How much more time should we devote to the study of all negative Nazi stuff so that people fully understand that Nazism is bad?
I received that, but not as thoroughly as it should have been. Part of the problem is the curriculum seemed to be trying to cover every year in American history, and we didn't even make it past WW II in my high school U.S. history class. I received a much better education on it on the collegiate level, and was able to get a really good in-depth civil rights course in graduate school that pertained to my studies.
To your Nazi example, part of the problem is they just teach that the Holocaust happened and there was an attempt to exterminate Jewish people. With some details. I don't recall us going into a lot of the early measures the Nazis took to set it up and create the oppression that later led to the extremes. That's a problem. Those are the early warning signs people need to learn.
What about teaching about Tulsa would finally hit the light switch in your brain that race riots are bad? Would you be sitting in history class in high school and thinking "Okay, sure, slavery...segregation...but still, they had some good poi...wait a minute, a race riot in Tulsa? Okay, this was out of hand...this can never happen again!"?
It's history. I don't have to read about it to know race riots are bad; I need to know it because I need to know the history of America. Why wouldn't you want that taught? You keep avoiding that. The fact that Tulsa was intentionally suppressed from American historical education speaks volumes about the content and the mindset of those behind it.
Can you imagine if Tulsa happened today? You think it would be so easily suppressed?
I am arguing that, if I am going to have to listen to ignorant blather about how "CRT is just about teaching history", I would like to see the cards on the table. Where is the delta...what is missing and make a justification for why it should be included, and what silly drivel do we currently teach in American history that just isn't worth time?
It's not being argued that it's "just teaching history." Not here, at least. And don't say I made that claim a while back like some previous liar on this board did because that's not what I said.
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Legend [15744]
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So through all that...Tulsa? Is that the answer?
Jul 7, 2021, 12:19 PM
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High schools need to teach about Tulsa? What about it? Why is it central to an understanding of American history, and what comes out of our American history class curriculum to make room for the Tulsa race riots? Oh, and what else comes out so we can better understand the Nazi's early measures?
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All-In [42119]
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I didn't say that. That's an intentional deflection.
Jul 7, 2021, 12:25 PM
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I addressed Tulsa because you specifically brought it up in your OP and your reply to me.
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Legend [15744]
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So no answer.***
Jul 7, 2021, 12:27 PM
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All-In [42119]
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Even you know this is a cheap debate tactic
Jul 7, 2021, 12:29 PM
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Your OP: "What is it?! All these examples?! How about Tulsa?!"
Me: "Okay, I'll take a moment to address why Tulsa is important."
You: "I still don't get what's so important about Tulsa."
Me: "Again, let me explain it. More thoroughly this time. Why don't you want it taught, by the way (right here, you dodge a question)?"
You: "So you're saying it's just about Tulsa."
Me: "No, I didn't say that. I addressed a topic you introduced."
You: "So no answer!!! Victory!"
C'mon.
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Legend [15744]
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No one is claiming victory. I'm clarifying that you have
Jul 7, 2021, 12:37 PM
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not proposed any specific topics that need to be included in the high school American history curriculum.
It's not that I want or don't want Tulsa taught - I am concerned that Tulsa would be incorporated into a high school American history curriculum that, you correctly point out, already struggles to cover critical material and get past WW2. What we should all want to avoid is a knee-jerk placating of current sensitivities to elevate the Tulsa race riots into a broad American high school curriculum. A scholarly appraisal of whether or not it merits such treatment is warranted and that is in no way what is happening in the current climate.
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All-In [42119]
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Re: No one is claiming victory. I'm clarifying that you have
Jul 7, 2021, 12:55 PM
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I explained what should be in there, and I explained it needs to go more in-depth and well beyond just teaching it as history. You said yourself it's more than just teaching history.
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Oculus Spirit [97697]
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Point of learning history is not to make the same mistake
Jul 7, 2021, 12:02 PM
[ in reply to Hmmm... ] |
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again.
Irony not lost that our mistakes are very clear, and we're not learning anything from history today.
And to really study history, you have to toss out the moral relativism and go with what was history when it was recorded to understand the actions and reactions that led to success and failures.
For example, why did Hitler rise to power? It wasn't because he hated the Jews. Many Germans and others hated the Jews as well. He rose to power because of reparations from the end of WW1 crippling Germany's economy, and a weak democratic government incapable of halting hyperinflation.
Why did Rome fall? Was it because they mistreated women?
Why did Egypt fall?
The answers to these questions are often NOT associated with the morality we have today. To try and explain history, and why events happened, with any relativism to today, is not learning history, it's rewriting it. Instead of being horrified with slavery, try to find out why it existed, and has existed forever. Instead of being horrified by what Hitler did, try and figure out how he got into a position to do what he did. Like why did we have a Civil War? It wasn't because southerners hated black people, they loved slavery and the money and income it brought. And I have no doubt at some point in the future, there will be people horrified that we drove machines with internal combustion engines based on fossil fuels. And they too will fall into the trap of not knowing WHY we did that, or the benefit of doing that, for us, right now, today.
CRT is much of this really. It's nothing new as I said earlier. It's actually as old as history, the temptation to look back on history through modern eyes, and make assumptions based on your world, not THAT world, at THAT time. You end up not learning the lesson, and history repeats.
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110%er [6402]
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Re: Hmmm...
Jul 7, 2021, 12:02 PM
[ in reply to Hmmm... ] |
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I'm talking about examining the in-depth historical cases of systemic racism and oppression in our nation prior to 1970.
I'll assume you would include teaching who originally enslaved those Africans and sold them to European colonists.
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All-In [42119]
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Why wouldn't that be taught?
Jul 7, 2021, 12:08 PM
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And yes, pawacoot, "Some black people did bad things too!"
Lawd, y'all act like there needs to be a scorecard kept. Calm down. No one is attacking your whiteness.
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110%er [6402]
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Re: Why wouldn't that be taught?
Jul 7, 2021, 1:34 PM
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Not keeping score, just bringing up the one thing about slavery in the U.S. that no one EVER wants to talk about. And it wasn't just rival tribes that enslaved people in Africa, it was Muslims too. To not bring that to the table is to (purposefully) leave the impression that white Europeans and American colonists went to Africa and took slaves by force. That did not happen.
And if you're going to teach slavery at all, why not teach about it throughout world history? It's not like it was unique to the U.S.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Hmmm...
Jul 7, 2021, 12:32 PM
[ in reply to Hmmm... ] |
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If you think CRT is simply "teaching accurate history as it involves race in America" then you are either incredibly dumb, or misinformed
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All-In [42119]
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Re: Hmmm...
Jul 7, 2021, 12:34 PM
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Never said it was simply that, and I challenge you to give me a thorough, unbiased explanation as to what it is. You won't; you'll just ramble on about how I'm crazy or something because you can't actually engage in an intelligent discussion.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Hmmm...
Jul 7, 2021, 12:39 PM
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Never said it was simply that, and I challenge you to give me a thorough, unbiased explanation as to what it is. You won't; you'll just ramble on about how I'm crazy or something because you can't actually engage in an intelligent discussion.
I defined CRT from 3 separate sources in another thread for you. Why don't you look it up. Again you make up #### in your head, believe it as truth, and then spout it on these message boards.
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All-In [42119]
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Re: Hmmm...
Jul 7, 2021, 12:56 PM
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Your previous post was garbage and not unbiased. Try again.
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All-TigerNet [13091]
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Re: For those in "CRT just wants to each history" La La Land...
Jul 7, 2021, 11:35 AM
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It’s victimhood training, nothing more. Anyone that says different, is gd idiot.
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All-In [47795]
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what I learned about CRT in school
Jul 7, 2021, 11:39 AM
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Heisman Winner [137838]
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Y are you deflecting?***
Jul 7, 2021, 11:55 AM
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All-In [47795]
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China is teaching some CRT to the
Jul 7, 2021, 11:58 AM
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Uyghurs even as we speak!
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All-In [42119]
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You know, that's a cool comparison
Jul 7, 2021, 12:11 PM
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Because some of y'all here would like Tulsa covered up just as much as China's education system covers up Tienanmen Square.
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All-In [47795]
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its your team that seeks to cover-up/cancel, not mine***
Jul 7, 2021, 12:19 PM
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All-In [42119]
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Which team is my team?***
Jul 7, 2021, 12:24 PM
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All-In [47795]
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fair point. you're switch hitter I suppose***
Jul 7, 2021, 12:29 PM
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All-In [42119]
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I tend be fairly consistent on Team...
Jul 7, 2021, 12:31 PM
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Disseminate All Factual Information and Don't Cover Any #### Up.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: You know, that's a cool comparison
Jul 7, 2021, 12:36 PM
[ in reply to You know, that's a cool comparison ] |
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Because some of y'all here would like Tulsa covered up just as much as China's education system covers up Tienanmen Square.
LMAO nobody desperately wants Tulsa to be covered up in history lessons. Teaching history accurately is essential.
Critical race theory is not teaching accurate history you absolute bozo.
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All-In [42119]
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You do.***
Jul 7, 2021, 12:56 PM
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Legend [15744]
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For that CRT to work, effective gun control is necessary.***
Jul 7, 2021, 12:00 PM
[ in reply to Y are you deflecting?*** ] |
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All-In [26490]
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CRT is a non issue per Dems
Jul 7, 2021, 12:41 PM
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although they are holding onto it like a pitbull on a ribeye
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Legend [16240]
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I find it very difficult to grasp the concept of promoting
Jul 7, 2021, 1:45 PM
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and defending willful ignorance, on any subject. Uncomfortable truths are part of the necessary territory one must cover to achieve fullness of being and betterment of self and your people. Ignorance fosters a stagnation and stunting of the mind that is against our better nature. I do not trust anyone who makes efforts to suppress truths, even if those truths accomplish nothing other than simply knowing them.
"On any subject" might not be accurate. I embrace willful ignorance when it comes to the social / private life of my daughter. No doubt there. I do not want to know. Other than that though - bring it on.
Message was edited by: wildblulou®
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110%er [5664]
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Re: I find it very difficult to grasp the concept of promoting
Jul 7, 2021, 2:23 PM
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says the person incapable of seeing what he is looking at.
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Legend [16240]
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Re: I find it very difficult to grasp the concept of promoting
Jul 7, 2021, 3:14 PM
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says the person seeing what he is told he is looking at.
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Legend [17766]
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La La Land...was a movie I thoroughly enjoyed.***
Jul 7, 2021, 3:15 PM
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